Last Chance - no mention of the SS?

[Cybermat47]

I’ve started the Last Chance campaign, and I’m a bit confused by the fact that there’s no mention of the SS. So far, the II SS Panzer Corps has just been called the “II Panzer Corps”, and the 2nd SS Panzergrenadier Division Das Reich has simply been called the “Panzergrenadier Division Das Reich”.

 

I assumed that it had something to do with anti-Nazi laws, but the description of the “‘Das Reich’ Imp” Tiger skin calls it the “2. SS-PzD ‘Das Reich’”.
 

It’s really just a minor nitpick, but I would be interested in knowing why.

[Thad]

Your assumption is probably correct. 

 

Politics and peoples long held and justified loathing of the Germen swastika and its infamous SS. 

[Eisenfaustus]

Would you want to play an SS-soldier? 

 

I assume: no 

 

i guess most people wouldn't. 

 

I think it's no harm leaving politics out of a good military story in entertainment. 

[csThor]

I think it's mostly fue to Russia's ... erm ... less than precise law against NS propaganda that's been in effect for years. Since it doesn't specify what counts as such it's simply a way to avoid potential legal troubles. 

[Pikestance]

12 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Would you want to play an SS-soldier? 

 

I assume: no 

 

i guess most people wouldn't. 

 

I think it's no harm leaving politics out of a good military story in entertainment. 

 

I don't have a problem with playing the "bad guys." In the end, every German soldier fought for Hitler. You do not get too pick and choose in this case. Granted, they would be individual  people who didn't really support but did so out pragmatism or self- preservation. However, you are fooling yourself if you are that person when you play as Germany. It sort of reminds me of the patriot with Mel Gibson. of course, he was plantation owner without slaves (black slaves no less) and in South Carolina of all places. No Mel, your character in the movie most definitely had slaves. 

[Eisenfaustus]

2 hours ago, IV./JG51-Lanze_vonHaltung said:

 

I don't have a problem with playing the "bad guys." In the end, every German soldier fought for Hitler. You do not get too pick and choose in this case. Granted, they would be individual  people who didn't really support but did so out pragmatism or self- preservation. However, you are fooling yourself if you are that person when you play as Germany. It sort of reminds me of the patriot with Mel Gibson. of course, he was plantation owner without slaves (black slaves no less) and in South Carolina of all places. No Mel, your character in the movie most definitely had slaves. 

 

Sure there were many soldiers in the Wehrmacht who were fervent Nazis - Rudel being a prominent example - and there were some soldiers in the Waffen-SS who fought chivalrous - Wilhelm Bittrich being an example for that...

 

Nevertheless while the Wehrmacht fought a war for the worst reasons possible - it was mainly tasked with fighting this war. The Waffen-SS on the other hand was the fighting component of the SS and therefore part of that attrocious organisation.

 

Just a personal motion: I would'nt like my alter ego to wear SS runes on his collar. Just like I would never create a character in any game with a Hitler moustache inspite the fact that before him it was just a moustache anyone could have worn...

 

Personally I also like that the German plane skins in the GB dont have the swastika shown - not because I am not aware of the luftwaffes role in nazi germany but just because when I play a game in my free time for my entertainment I prefer not to look at swastikas. Personal preference...

 

And when you want to tell a story for entertainment and don't do scientific research it's okay to leave out stuff that doesn't fit the story because it would lose entertainment value. If you tell a story for educational puposes it's a completely diffrent matter of course!

Edited November 9, 2019 by Eisenfaustus

[Pikestance]

I come at it from a living historian perspective. As a former ACW reenactor you are telling a story. All members were expected to know the history and to be true to its history. When I read squadrons recruiting it has information about units expectations on pilots, but the  one thing that is always missing is the history of the unit. That is a mistake. If you going to draw inspiration for your squadron's name, then you need to tell their story. Using actual pilots name or using ethnic names for the unit is also a good start.  of course, I am viewing this from a historical standpoint. Really, to each there own in the end. I personally would never fault anyone for portraying a unit of questionable ethics assuming they at least had a noteworthy record in the war. 

 

A small note of curiosity. I live in China. I am a member of 6. Luftflotte. The forum is actually blocked in China. Unlike facebook which states the connection was lost or could not be established, it states that it is forbidden. I do wonder if the site is perceived by the Chinese gov't has promoting Fascism. 

 

 

[104th_IronMike]

The problem with the SS is that it is a forbidden organization in Germany. And imo rightfully so. The SS did far more than fight in a war, it was a fanatic, murderous organization, Himmler's private cult if you like, of the "Arian Supersoldier". And that is not an exaggeration. That said, many young men joined the SS, simply because they thought they would look dapper in the uniform - and then they got their heads washed. But the mass executions of Jews, concentration camps and many other crimes against humanity have been done by or aided by the SS - to be added: in sometimes a voluntary ferocity that exceeded any other German behavior during WW2 by far, besides the SA and SD. We're not speaking of just some questionable ethics here, we're talking about what is commonly deemed the worst atrocity in the history of humankind. The Holocaust and the SS cannot be thought without each other.

As both a German and descendent of my granddad, who was held in and survived Auschwitz, Dachau and Buchenwald, among 11 other concentration camps on his journey of horror, I appreciate that we treat this part of our history with outmost care. I don't get triggered by seeing a Swastika (I mean in a game or movie or so, I use some historic skins myself), nor do I lose my head if I see SS uniforms or read the bienveillants by Jonathan Little. And I can appreciate Michael Wittman as a great tank commander and so forth. I also believe that games should enjoy the same freedom (in Germany) as arts and science (they do not). But the problem with Nazi-Symbols/history is commentary or a lack there-of, they become problematic if used in entertainment without commentary. A history lesson of such a unit should thus include everything the unit did, good and bad, which in itself is a commentary. As it would be a commentary if parts are left out intentionally. In that sense this part of our history, as Germans, needs to be told with responsibility and thus appropriate commentary, so an important lesson is not lost on future generations, who will not have grandparents to tell them how horrible the war was and what incredibly wrong has been done. It is a lesson we cannot afford to miss in my opinion. The trivialisation of these symbols eventually does lead to the trivialization of the history they stand for. That's why they are generally forbidden in Germany among other places. And if you compare the evil Germany that sat down at the Wannsee-Konferenz to decide which ppl it should wipe off the face of the earth to make room for its "master race" and the Germany of today - I think this concept of taking responsibility and learning from one's history actually works really well. Which is why " Politics and peoples long held and justified loathing of the Germen swastika and its infamous SS"... (and will hopefully continue to do so for a long, long time to come.) ?

Edited November 11, 2019 by 104th_IronMike

[THERION]

Very well written and there is nothing to add. Thank you for your contribution, because the world still isn't the best place for all.

And we have to be aware, that right now in many countries it seems to be en vogue again to discriminate people for whatever

reason!

 

So, even after more than 70 years, one shall never forget what really happened then - and not only Germany, because they did
their homework compared to other countries, who were involved in those crimes too - actively or passively.

[Yogiflight]

First, the SS is not left out because of German, but more likely because of Russian law. That 5he SS is a forbidden organization in Germany has nothing to do with mentioning units in a computer game.

Second, it is a failure to believe that the Wehrmacht was any better when talking about war crimes than the Waffen SS. Don't mix Waffen SS with Totenkopf SS. Yes the Waffen SS did war crimes like shooting Jews, but so did the Wehrmacht. The Wehrmacht gets glorified by many people as the clean part of the German army, that just fought for the fatherland, but didn't have to do anything with the Holocaust. But that is wrong. They were no better than the Waffen SS.

[Lofte]

49 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

but more likely because of Russian law

Don't know about this law. I remember big soviet "Atlas of Officer" (printed in 1984), there were maps with letters "СС" ("SS").

That was official book, printed by soviet Ministry of Defence and, as I know, nobody pays an attention on this.. I don't know what is the problem put these letters..

The game has more then enough problems with historical atmosphere even without this...

 

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Lofte

[Pikestance]

This is much ado about nothing. This is a historical based game in which groups of players decide to represent various aspects of the war for whatever reason. If historical symbols frighten you, then this is the wrong genre for you. 

[csThor]

IIRC it was sometime prior to 2010 when there was an announcement in the old 1C Forum (aka Banana Board) that due to this new legislation 1C was immediately dropping the swastika from any title yet to be officially released. Oleg said that the scope and application of said law was as clear as stirred mud so the big heads in 1C management decided to err on the side of caution and remove any possible legal tripwire.

 

It's not a "political correctness" issue but a real legal concern for the devs (since they're primarily based in Russia) so cut them some slack, 'kay?

[104th_IronMike]

It's not only Russia, it is Germany, too. Depiction of fascist/ Nazi symbols is forbidden, and the German gaming market is important. So that's that. 
 

No one is frightened, no one said the Wehrmacht was clean, and you totally missed the points. I gave you a perspective on the SS from a german point of view, forbidden is only the depiction of symbols, not the mention of it. Whether this is the genre for me or not, is not up to you to decide.

If you need swatikas and SS runes to feel historically correct, well, no one cares, because the Russian and German law trumps your petty wishes. Download the skins like the rest of us, just gotta ask yourself, if you download them for the swastika or for the "accuracy"... ?

 

PS:@Yogiflight, the Totenkopf SS was part of the Waffen-SS and the atrocities committed by the Waffen-SS are well documented and do set themselves apart from the rest of the Wehrmacht. Especially in terms of treatment of POWs and civilians. There is no need to represent the Wehrmacht as clean, and there is no need to relativise the "deeds" of the Waffen SS.

PPS: I also find it a bit bizarre, how much traction such a topic gets, vs you know, topics concerning real issues with the game (not necessarily mine, but in general). It's quite silly, to be honest.

Edited November 11, 2019 by 104th_IronMike

[Eisenfaustus]

3 hours ago, 104th_IronMike said:

It's not only Russia, it is Germany, too. Depiction of fascist/ Nazi symbols is forbidden, and the German gaming market is important. So that's that. 

 

Not true - games are now allowed to depict swastikas in Germany and in fact that never was clearly forbidden., as video games can of course be seen as an art form. Swastikas and so on just have to be put in the right context and not be used to glorify the third reich. But game developers usually choose the the easiest way and don't risk that a moody judge decides they did it wrong.

 

Since many participants of this discussion speak German:

 

 

[104th_IronMike]

Yes, well, it is basically still the fear that they would share the fate of the original Wolfenstein 3D. But Games do not enjoy the same freedom as art and science a priori still, though part of the Kulturrat, they need to fulfill the "soziale Adäquanz" Klausel, which is what I meant with commentary. (In art and science this premise is regarded as fulfilled, unless obviously broken, but dont quote me, I am not a lawyer.) So if its depiction is not a commentary in favor of education as such, the dev would either have to add some sort of commentary to make its depiction socially relevant, or he'd be in need to explain himself and potentially risk indexing. So the short way is not to depict them if not really necessary. Possibly in a title like IL2 historical accuracy could be argued as educational, I certainly would not mind. So yes, possibly the Russian law is more decisive in this matter. In any case, I am personally happy that we still cultivate a responsible handling of this part of our history and at least pose ourselves the question, should we, or should we not. My 2 cents.

[Pikestance]

For the record, i was never arguing that the developers include anything. My comment dealt with individuals choosing to represent certain groups in game and that such representation is not nor should it be attribute to a  person or group as their personal or group's beliefs. 

 

Personally, I think a government that opposes symbols are foolish. It the symbols they should fear, but the ideology. I have noticed in Europe a rise in nationalism and no prohibition on past symbols will ever prevent another rise of nationalism. In fact, if nationalist groups were smart, the last thing they should do is to use any nationalist symbols of the pass. 

[104th_IronMike]

1 hour ago, IV./JG51-Lanze_vonHaltung said:

For the record, i was never arguing that the developers include anything. My comment dealt with individuals choosing to represent certain groups in game and that such representation is not nor should it be attribute to a  person or group as their personal or group's beliefs. 

 

Personally, I think a government that opposes symbols are foolish. It the symbols they should fear, but the ideology. I have noticed in Europe a rise in nationalism and no prohibition on past symbols will ever prevent another rise of nationalism. In fact, if nationalist groups were smart, the last thing they should do is to use any nationalist symbols of the pass. 

Indeed, however it is not just a numb forbidding it, it comes with a lot of education (I am looking at you school, talking about Nazis all the time) and a lot of measures in order to understand history well. Like Eisenfaustus clarified, showing them per se is not forbidden, they are forbidden to be used for glorification or mindlessly, etc... But yeah, difintely agree with you.

[db605Sct13]

While I would be fine with the historical symbolism, there are others that don't get that its a game and the folks playing the bad guys aren't fervent, fanatical, racists of any group. So the deletion of the swastika was the right thing to do. 

 

Regarding the inclusion of the SS units that fought in these campaigns can go several ways.

 

One ...don't try to delete history...it happened...it was tragic and thank god they lost that war. However the company that releases the game sets itself up for ridicule, because there are people who will prefer to delete history and pretend that the boogie man never existed. this will eventually lead to accusations that the developers are sympathetic in some way to the SS ideals.... Bad for everyone...

 

Second. There are people that "glorify" the SS, due to its pageantry and supposed comradery....(the uniforms were meant to impress and they still do) the imagery was designed to draw innocent in. Some think its cool to run around with SS accoutrements to be antisocial or to get a rise out of someone....  and to be just plain Mean.....The developers don't need this kind of negativity....it WILL surface....Because some people are just ass hats....

 

Third.....They could add it, denounce it, saying its for histories sake that its included and we go on enjoying our game, and everyone understands....no one complains and no one acts like a total jerk…..But that is....well not the reality. 

 

I would welcome real history....