How do they turn so quick

[54th_Ace-Bang]

G'day

  I was on a multiplayer server last night in a BF 109 F4.  A spitfire was chasing me down a long way behind me. I pulled a low G turn and headed straight back at him at pretty much full speed and at the same altitude. After we crossed the spit did a 180 degree turn. Even though he did a complete 180 he still had allot more energy than me  and caught up to me very quickly and eventually shot me down. I have played this game for some time and this is the first time I have ever had a plane pull a 180 and still have more energy than a 109 at nearly full tilt in a slight descent. It would be fair enough if he had an altitude advantage but this was not the case in this scenario. I can not for the life of me work out how he achieved this. Any thoughts?

[56RAF_Roblex]

Let me get this straight.   Someone was 'chasing you down' which implies he had more E.  You pulled a 180, he pulled a 180 and he still had more E.   I am failing to see what is so strange.

[ATAG_kiwiflieger]

Not to mention that Spitfires will retain energy far better in turns than any 109 will. Alternatively he may have pulled up into a climb and come back down still retaining the energy as well.

Using lots of rolling maneuvers to make yourself a difficult shot while potentially forcing an overshoot is a good way of dealing with a Spitfire in a 109, works best at about 300-350km/h.

Chandelles are also effective if you have enough distance in a long chase, where you climb and turn at the same time into a 180. You can climb at best climb rate (200-250km/h), but for the Spitfire to keep their nose on you they have to climb steeper than they can sustain and if timed right they will stall out, just in time for you to dive in and hit them at the apex where they are most vulnerable.

 

See you in the skies

[OrLoK]

I find all enemy aircraft seem to have a better performance than I do!

 

 

Then again, i am a bad pilot

[FurphyForum]

Dunno about that OrLok, I've already got the wooden spoon on that spot. 

[Creep]

Start recording with tacview enabled as soon as you get engaged. Nine times out of ten, watching the replay will answer the “how did he do that” questions that I frequently have.

[54th_Ace-Bang]

Thanks for the replies. He was only very slightly gaining at about 3k behind me. I pulled a 180 and headed straight back towards him , by the time we crossed paths at level altitude I was pretty much at full speed. There is no way he could have pulled a 180 and retain enough energy to catch me (very quickly I might add). If he had pulled up before we crossed I could see that he may have an advantage but he turned after we crossed. I just found it very strange. In fact it's haunting me a bit.
  I will download tacview from your advise and study future scenario's.
  Love this game and love the tactics. Live and learn I say.

[NiiranenVR]

I have the same Feeling  sometimes - were passing by ,and I put my nose down / straight line / max power - and he ( or she ) turn around and shoot me down - to the ground ?

[Ala13_pienoir]

the answer is almost always: the enemy pilot was better than me

 

 

Edit:If that surprises you, you'll hallucinate with what Russian planes do

Edited November 4, 2019 by E69_pienoir

[[CPT]Crunch]

Your allowing the guy to lower his nose in a instantaneous turn through only 180 degrees, that's not enough for a purpose built fighter to lose significant inertia.  Next time look which way he turns the nose, and than initiate a loose 180 of your own in the same direction away from him, follow it with a sharp vertical climb as he bleeds out trying to high G a full circle and close the gap.  By the time he's dragged through a full 360 degrees or more aggressive turn and attempts to close as you zip on upstairs, it should be him dying as you drop back on him from above with superior energy.

 

Ask the Fw guys, they are absolute deadly in the short inertia turns as long as they limit the pull to minimize cashing in too much energy.  Nose down adds to the time effect and efficiency.  

[gimpy117]

Spitfire Vs. 109

 

in turn

 

there is the problem 

[54th_Ace-Bang]

I know what your saying gimpy, I never get in a turn fight with a spit. I should have rephrased my question another way from the beginning. If 2 planes are at equal E approaching one another in a head on fashion at equal altitude, it is my understanding that when one of the planes turns to chase they will lose E and there is no possible way they can rapidly catch the other plane? I have never seen this before with anyone.

[Bullets]

Do you remember the pilots username? 

[54th_Ace-Bang]

Yes I do Bullets, it was Paul, might be Paul 310?. Very good pilot. I've been shot down by him more times than I can remember but this is also teaching me to become a better pilot as well. He pulls off some really insane maneuvers..I didn't want to mention names on this forum because of privacy or whatever but I have the utmost respect for this guy.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Ace-Bang
added information

[JtD]

It has already been mentioned, but in order to work this out get Tacview and record a track. Tacview is very good at analyzing situations like these - you can find out exactly how fast everyone was going at what time, how high they were and what manoeuvre cost what speed and what altitude.

[54th_Ace-Bang]

Definitely JtD, I will get around to it soon as it will be good to analyze how bad my flying is...lol  Great info and thanks for the reply...Cheers

[CrazyDuck]

Why did you turn in first place?

[Max_von_Wuthenau]

He clearly cheated

[Barnacles]

Also he may have been flying a 150 Oct spit IX with low fuel. If so, he's got almost 400 more horsepower at a 5min rating than you have at a 1 minute rating. In a similar weight plane.

[616Sqn_SpocksOddSocks]

Well I was going to ask a slightly different question. Was this on DED, and have you checked the stats page? And this might sound like I'm being ridiculous, but are you sure it wasn't a Tempest rather than a spit. I only as that because the stats page makes it look like that player hasn't flown the spit much online since the Tempest was released.

 

And whilst I'm not 100% certain, based on the time you gave, it looks like you might have meant this sortie:

 

http://72ag-ded.su:8080/en/sortie/log/1399952/?tour=50

[FTC_DerSheriff]

depending on the server it could be possible that he was fighting a Spit IX.

Which would explain everything. But like always with those posts, we will never know for sure, since we cant see what actually happend. In 99 percent of such posts (they happen often) the OP is a rookie and was missing some crucial parts. Most of the time there was more energy on the side of the attacker than the OP was noticing. 

On another note, a quick turn at high G can cost less speed than a long turn at medium Gs since the aircraft is less time influenced by induced drag.
Highly depended on circumstances, but this is certainly possible.
 

Edited November 6, 2019 by DerSheriff

[PatrickAWlson]

@Ace-Bang I have the same problem and I'm pretty sure it's because I'm a bad pilot, specifically around engine management.  I get chased down by planes that should not be chasing me down.  It's not the game or the FM, it's me.  With that in mind, tips on engine management welcome  

[SCG_Wulfe]

A trick I'll sometimes use in a similar scenario, (especially if I have a plane that retains energy through turns well) is to turn in against the plane coming head-on with me ahead of the merge. Often it's difficult to see for the enemy pilot and he just thinks I'm moving to decline the head-on pass. Ultimately I aim to have my 180 degree turn complete with me essentially meters behind the enemies tail. It takes some time to get used to estimating closure rate and timing to get it right. (You certainly don't want to turn too soon and end up right in front of them.) 

[MikhaVT]

1 hour ago, DerSheriff said:

Which would explain everything. But like always with those posts, we will never know for sure, since we cant see what actually happend. In 99 percent of such posts (they happen often) the OP is a rookie and was missing some crucial parts. Most of the time there was more energy on the side of the attacker than the OP was noticing. 

 

This is why tacview is so useful, it lets you see what actually happened as opposed to what i thought happened in my rookie opinion.

[Voidhunger]

I didnt try fighting against Spitfire after the new update, but i was quite amazed when in QMB i was flying straight full power with MW50 vs Spitfire flying straight too, before we were close I started to climb without turning. AI Spitfire was able to turn in a climb and parked behind me at close range. I had to start evasive maneauvers . Amazing performance.

[453=SGII_Wotan]

Ace bang

 

which server do you fly on, I am aussie as well lookin for a decent server to learn again

 

john

[Nolly]

@kennel Try the unprofessionals for learning on, aussie server with a mix of AI and real players.

[54th_Ace-Bang]

On 11/7/2019 at 6:49 AM, kennel said:

Ace bang

 

which server do you fly on, I am aussie as well lookin for a decent server to learn again

 

john

I have only been flying on 2 servers. WOL and EUded. WOL has been impossible since the last update though, keeps dropping out so I have been suspended so to speak. The EU is good for a dogfighting session but in Australia it is usually early hours of the morning to find some decent numbers in the server. Usually about 20 or so.

 

[Barnacles]

13 minutes ago, Ace-Bang said:

I have only been flying on 2 servers. WOL and EUded. WOL has been impossible since the last update though, keeps dropping out so I have been suspended so to speak. The EU is good for a dogfighting session but in Australia it is usually early hours of the morning to find some decent numbers in the server. Usually about 20 or so.

 

The unprofessionals is an Australian based server which occasionally has more than a few people on. It's got AI I think too.

[AtomicP]

I don't think anyone mentioned aircraft weight. If net weights of aircraft are similar then one carrying less fuel will have an advantage in regaining energy since it isn't dragging so much through the air. Not sure if TacView records this though. But in general, with a good pilot at the hands of a Spitfire you'll have a hard time winning in a turn fight!