Exploratory commitee for the creation of a nightfighting mod

[PatrickAWlson]

11 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Agreed.

The whole "exploratory committee" thing is a bit silly.

I kind of like it  

[Gambit21]

It’s growing on me.

[PatrickAWlson]

Question about night action on the front lines: I really have no idea how it was done in WWII.  In WWI it was basically take off and either time the return for sunrise or land with fire pots.  Bombers just flew over the target and dropped.  Fighters went up with blacked out cockpits and looked for either bombers caught in searchlights or engine exhaust.  We have all of the building blocks to create those sorts of missions right now. 

 

I have read a fair amount about strategic, western front night operations,  and we obviously do not have either the planes or radar to implement that.  But what about front line night ops, which is where this sim is today anyway.  In WWII was there more sophisticated tech available at the front to help with tactical intercepts?  Or did pilots just get into the air and do it WWI style?

[Gambit21]

This is what I’m working on Patrick (in between Jug campaign hours)

busdriver sent me this.

 

Marmite (radar) will be handled with triggers and radio calls. This will be a single “endless” randomized, endlessly repayable mission. Basically an entire campaign in one mission file.

 

Right now I have AI Landing, refueling, taking off for another sortie all night long. 

 

 

As December began the weather, which could change in a matter of minutes from clear to fog, was remarkably good, and the absence of the Luftwaffe was quite noticeable. Little did the 422nd night fighters realize that by mid-December they would be at the exact center of Gen. von Rundstedt's Ardennes Counter-offensive. With the decrease in enemy night air activity, the 422nd wanted to increase their offensive work against the Germans. In late November "Bomber Command" or the "422nd Air Force" was formed when the 422nd Night Fighter Squadron received a number of war-weary and barely flyable A-20s. The squadron's historical report describes these aircraft quite vividly. "When the seven wrecks did arrive, their condition gave food for some sober as well as somber thought. One was a veteran of 90 missions, none were equipped with oxygen and all were pretty well beaten up." For the first five days of the month crews checked out in these aircraft and worked out a system of radar bombing with Marmite (GCI) control. Their first operational mission was on 5 December, 1944, when a leaflet drop was made between Julich and Linnich, Germany. One of the "bomber pilots" was Jim Postlewaite. "Night bombing, leaflet drops, we did it all. We dropped some flares and then we were supposed to fly down underneath the flares looking for enemy troop concentrations. All of this, while we were locked in with the gun laying radar back at a big tent behind the lines . If you did find a target you were supposed to tell them you were over it. This would be marked on a map and then the artillery would serenade the spot. [snip]  Usually we would try to get on each target maybe three times a night. We had a versatile bomb load. There were only four 500 pounders because our runway wasn't too long, and we couldn't get off with a heavier load. Sometimes it wasn't long enough even with one ton. Our bomb load usually consisted of one instantaneous, one with a one-hour delay fuse, one with a two-hour delay fuse and one with a four-hour. "I've been over the same targets four hours later in time to see that last one go. What it was, was a harassing element to the Germans; and the results were real good. The bombs were hitting the crossroads and putting a hole in them which we wanted to do. We'd drop the last bombs about six in the morning, and they would go off at 10:00 a.m . Maybe the first one was dropped at 8:00 at night. This caused a lot of harassment, especially if the crossroads were in a small village or something like that. The inhabitants don't get too much sleep, because by morning the day fighters are over there beating them up. This was what we flew, a harassing type of mission."  [snip] By the 28th of December the weather became so severe that it was necessary to cancel nearly all air operations on both sides, German as well as Allied, for the rest of the year. Germany's grand offensive had been stopped, however, and harassed by Allied air power, the Germans were beginning to retreat. In the air the night fighters scored 17-1-1 during the offensive. Bad weather limited day operations of both the 422nd's P-61s and A-20s, but these aircraft did yeoman service in the ground attack operations that followed. The A-20s dropped nearly 12 tons of general purpose bombs and flew strafing missions as did the P-61s, concluding the month with the claim of 3 locomotives destroyed, 57 railroad cars damaged, and 8 motor transports destroyed or damaged. The weather was not the only natural enemy with which the night fighters had to contend. They had been in combat for five months when the "Bulge" offensive began, during which time they had received only one replacement aircraft. All their aircraft had over 300 combat hours, and the time was beginning to show on both the machines and their radar sets. Serviceability of their war weary aircraft was very low; and at times during the battle, the 422nd was able to operate with as few as four aircraft, each of these flying three to four missions in one night. They had lost five aircraft and one crew during the Ardennes battle, three of them being P-61s. Of the five, three were lost to weather. It was felt that if they had been equipped with the long range external fuel tanks, as had been requested many times, these aircraft would not have gone down.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gambit21

[LukeFF]

On 10/30/2019 at 2:47 PM, Sokol1 said:

the actual nights always clear for fighters dogfight don't fit the idea.

 

Sorry, but that's simply not true. 

[Sokol1]

On 10/31/2019 at 1:06 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

Question about night action on the front lines: I really have no idea how it was done in WWII. 

 

Well implemented in IL-2:1946 in "mod era":

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Sokol1

[Gretsch_Man]

3 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

 

Well implemented in IL-2:1946 in "mod era":

 

 

Really cool looking stuff. And the present Rheinland map would allow for a Battle of the Ruhr setup.

[Bremspropeller]

Gambit, would you use the P-38J for a P-61 stand-in?

I think it comes pretty close in terms of looks (duh) and performance. And it's got a landing-light

 

Any book-suggestions on the 422nd? I already have "Queen of the Midnight Skies".

[Gambit21]

8 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Gambit, would you use the P-38J for a P-61 stand-in?

I think it comes pretty close in terms of looks (duh) and performance. And it's got a landing-light

 

Any book-suggestions on the 422nd? I already have "Queen of the Midnight Skies".

 

A-20 - perfect since that’s what they flew for a bit. It was the G model of course, but for this purpose our B model will work just fine.

 

If we ever get the G, which is my hope, it’s an easy swap.

 

I only have the reference material posted above so far, which for this project is plenty.

 

 

 

 

[Avimimus]

On 10/31/2019 at 8:33 AM, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

No need for mods. We already have a Kuban map, a Bf-110 G-2, the U-2VS, the Boston, and searchlights. Now we just need someone to make the missions, and we’ll have a representation of night fighter operations on the Eastern Front, such as Josef Kociok’s destruction of four Night Witches in a single night.

 

Also worth noting is that He-111 night fighters were the highest scoring aces against the U-2... so tweaking the AI settings in the mission editor should fill in another gap.

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

A-20 - perfect since that’s what they flew for a bit. It was the G model of course, but for this purpose our B model will work just fine.

 

If we ever get the G, which is my hope, it’s an easy swap.

 

I only have the reference material posted above so far, which for this project is plenty.

 

Off topic - but isn't the G-1 (used mainly in Russia) a lot closer to the variant we have (compared to other Gs which I gather had lengthend fuselauges and new turrets etc.)?

[Juri_JS]

On 10/31/2019 at 1:33 PM, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

No need for mods. We already have a Kuban map, a Bf-110 G-2, the U-2VS, the Boston, and searchlights. Now we just need someone to make the missions, and we’ll have a representation of night fighter operations on the Eastern Front, such as Josef Kociok’s destruction of four Night Witches in a single night.

Already done.

 

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

Off topic - but isn't the G-1 (used mainly in Russia) a lot closer to the variant we have (compared to other Gs which I gather had lengthend fuselauges and new turrets etc.)?

 

I’m not sure.

[sevenless]

Without Lancasters and Halifaxes rather pointless undertaking.

[Gambit21]

Night missions are not much different than building day missions, and more fun down low anyway.(out of Lancaster territory)

[Gretsch_Man]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Night missions are not much different than building day missions, and more fun down low anyway.(out of Lancaster territory)

That depends. If you talk about Eastern Front style night mission you may be right. But for a night mission as depicted in above IL-2 1946 mod video, Lancs and Halifaxes, or at least a Wellington would be much preferable.

[Gambit21]

6 minutes ago, Gretsch_Man said:

That depends. If you talk about Eastern Front style night mission you may be right. But for a night mission as depicted in above IL-2 1946 mod video, Lancs and Halifaxes, or at least a Wellington would be much preferable.

 

No doubt...however low level night/intruder missions didn’t just happen on the Eastern Front - see my post above.

[Bremspropeller]

10 hours ago, sevenless said:

Without Lancasters and Halifaxes rather pointless undertaking.

 

Not necessarily:

 

[sevenless]

5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Not necessarily:

 

 

I know I  know, we could also replay this business if we get the Mossie:

 

 

However, without the big boys it would still feel empty. IMHO, of course.

Edited November 3, 2019 by sevenless

[Bremspropeller]

Got both books - as a matter of fact, they're actually next to each other in the book-shelf ?

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, sevenless said:

However, without the big boys it would still feel empty. IMHO, of course.

 

If you’re wanting heavies then no more or less than it does already.