Too effective ammo combined with ai effectiveness.

[Lusekofte]

Many topics derail because of PE 2 ai gunners and I have partly agreed on the problem. 
But after flying JU 88 at high altitude and found its gunners to be equal effective I wonder if we are seeing the total picture. 
In special after Bodenplatte arrived I find the mortal effect of cannon rounds to be a bit overdone. I do believe 30 mm will take down anything flying. But not like we experience today. 
No matter what you fly in red side the plane get totally disassembled. 
I think a combination of less complex damage modeling, bit too dramatic effect on ammo and too accurate ai is to blame. 
I was hoping the altered physiology would effect the gunners and settle things down a bit. 
can anyone say if it has? 
I don't intend to give critique about the problem. 
Just try to figure out the reason for ai gunners PE 2 effectiveness and learn to live with it.
I love flying that plane, but you feel almost like a cheater doing so. The A 20 gunner give no protection  what so ever 

[EpeeNoire]

 

jokes and memes aside, I agree that Pe-2 gunners have been and probably still are too good at what they do. they still manage to land critical hits in ridiculous conditions and extremely short time frames.

but, to the devs credit, it has been worse in the past. so at least they seem to be aware of the issue and try to bend it a little towards making it more believable.

 

why of any planes it has to be the Pe-2 that has this OP-gunners issue is what is really interesting about it, if you ask me. I think it's just the AI that is absolutely overdone here, since the ammo should not be that big of a factor.

 

regarding the effectiveness of the 30 mm rounds: yeah, those things are just beasts. but they should be. what I think is maybe a liiiiiitle underpowered is the german "normal" 20 mm rounds, you know, the minengeschosse. compared to hispanos in game, they kind of are outperformed by them. don't know if that should be the case though. the russian 20 mm rounds seem to be alright

Edited October 26, 2019 by EpeeNoire

[AndytotheD]

I’m sure we have all seen the video of the spitfire taking a hit from a 30mm cannon round. Had that wing been under load I’m convinced it would have separated from the aircraft. Now we’ve all seen fuselage sections get cleaved off of aircraft by 30mm and that may be extreme, but that could be a limitation with the damage modelling; an aircraft might not have its rear fuselage blown clean off by a single 30mm cannon round, but it can certainly do outright fatal structural damage.

[Garven]

5 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

The A 20 gunner give no protection  what so ever 

Not really a problem once you realize the A-20 is a better fighter than the P-40 or P-39

[40plus]

Why are my gunners never effective when I need them to be? 

[Yogiflight]

8 minutes ago, pfrances said:

Why are my gunners never effective when I need them to be? 

They are programmed to have the same skill as the pilot

[Avimimus]

The gunner AI is pretty weird in some respects. Some of the challenges associated with shooting from a turret also aren't modelled... so those could be major factors.

 

I'm reaching back to the RoF days (the files are still layed out the same way)... but basically the gunner starts with a base amount of inaccuracy (i.e. aims slightly away from the target), and then receives a random input to change that aimpoint every few seconds (the frequency of this change depends on range), and gradually a third value is used to control how the aim off-set decreases in size over time... innaccuracy is also added as a result of any gee forces.

 

These patterns aren't always visible because the AI is firing in bursts - but it is very clear if one tweaks the file so the AI fires continuously or watches the gun turret itself.

 

I wonder if reducing the decrease in inaccuracy would improve the experience (so the AI starts out more accurate but ends up still pretty inaccurate by the end of the engagement).

[40plus]

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

They are programmed to have the same skill as the pilot

LOL, well were all screwed then.

[=BES=Senor_Jefe]

110's are guilty too. Two nights ago on KOTA I made a run in from 8 o'clock from 4k above with over 600 mph and followed through below the 110.  Got completely annihilated by a single round fired.  Upon reviewing the recording, there were 21 frames, or roughly .3 seconds where the gunner could have acquired me to fire.  It was pretty funny after the fact, but I was very pissed when it happened.  Such a shame that an alien like that ruined my good streak I had going.  

 

I did learn though: I won't attempt any more runs on planes with rear guns for awhile.  Not worth running into superhuman snipers again.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

 

[=BES=Senor_Jefe]

17 minutes ago, Hajo_Garlic said:

 

Interesting find.  What I noticed most is when you're right over top of the pe2, you're still being hit, and the rear gun is at about a 30 degree angle...

[Lusekofte]

But have anyone noticed any difference after the new physiology was implemented?

[KatieLuna]

Not one bit.

[Lusekofte]

12 minutes ago, TheTacticalCat said:

Not one bit.

Damn it. 

[R6ckStar]

28 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

But have anyone noticed any difference after the new physiology was implemented?

I have, on the receiving end, my gunner got hit and blacked out for a while, and then came back and nailed the 109

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

11 hours ago, EpeeNoire said:

 

jokes and memes aside, I agree that Pe-2 gunners have been and probably still are too good at what they do. they still manage to land critical hits in ridiculous conditions and extremely short time frames.

but, to the devs credit, it has been worse in the past. so at least they seem to be aware of the issue and try to bend it a little towards making it more believable.

 

why of any planes it has to be the Pe-2 that has this OP-gunners issue is what is really interesting about it, if you ask me. I think it's just the AI that is absolutely overdone here, since the ammo should not be that big of a factor.

 

regarding the effectiveness of the 30 mm rounds: yeah, those things are just beasts. but they should be. what I think is maybe a liiiiiitle underpowered is the german "normal" 20 mm rounds, you know, the minengeschosse. compared to hispanos in game, they kind of are outperformed by them. don't know if that should be the case though. the russian 20 mm rounds seem to be alright

The Minengeschosse round.. is that the one that detonated in air if it missed the target like in CLoD?   

I was just wondering why we don’t see that effect in game, or if it was over done in that title?

[Lusekofte]

12 hours ago, EpeeNoire said:

 

jokes and memes aside, I agree that Pe-2 gunners have been and probably still are too good at what they do. they still manage to land critical hits in ridiculous conditions and extremely short time frames.

but, to the devs credit, it has been worse in the past. so at least they seem to be aware of the issue and try to bend it a little towards making it more believable.

 

why of any planes it has to be the Pe-2 that has this OP-gunners issue is what is really interesting about it, if you ask me. I think it's just the AI that is absolutely overdone here, since the ammo should not be that big of a factor.

 

regarding the effectiveness of the 30 mm rounds: yeah, those things are just beasts. but they should be. what I think is maybe a liiiiiitle underpowered is the german "normal" 20 mm rounds, you know, the minengeschosse. compared to hispanos in game, they kind of are outperformed by them. don't know if that should be the case though. the russian 20 mm rounds seem to be alright

My. Point is JU 88 is just as accurate. The only difference is caliber , but  if you fly high altitude and a inpatient attacker choose to attack before stabilize speed and plane. The fighter is dead meat

[Mac_Messer]

I would say it is a combination of 3 factors, namely the AI accuracy from distance up to 200m, far too good AI orientation when plane is maneuvering and general DM of aircraft. From my pov it is really hard to disable a gunner - almost seems a direct hit is required by DM, even if large calibre is used no matter 20mm or 30mm. Other times, especially when AI driven, planes tend to swing left and right repeatedly which doesn`t seem to affect gunner accuracy at all.

[LLv24_SukkaVR]

We were flying Pe-2's and one of us shot down 4 fighters with his radar guided gunners in one short sortie. Ridiculous.

[Lusekofte]

19 hours ago, LLv24_Sukka24 said:

We were flying Pe-2's and one of us shot down 4 fighters with his radar guided gunners in one short sortie. Ridiculous.

I have seen a lot of ridiculous videos about pe gunners. But I flown it a lot myself. 
I usually man the gunner position myself since the gunners are always too late in warning me. 
But when I don't I get shot down in one pass. 
I do no longer doubt it, but I want it fixed. As for now it is ruined for me. 
Imagine what a A20 G gunner can do with its turret. 

[Yogiflight]

What is completely unrealistic in this game is the way multicrew aircrafts are flown. With all this hard turns, where the pilot rolls his plane 70-80 degrees on a side. The pilot is usually the only crew member fixed in his seat by his safety belt, the gunners only have waist belts. They would be very busy all the time grabbing something to hold themselves. Not to forget the lower gunner in the Pe 2, who has to change position between left and right side plus the ventral gun. So he surely didn't have any belt at all. The same with the waist gunner in the He 111. And then I see such funny things like a Pe 2, flying upside down and the belly gunner shooting.

[Lusekofte]

I guess we talk limitation in game engine

[unreasonable]

14 hours ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

I guess we talk limitation in game engine

 

I do not see why: just give each crew position a G level above which it cannot take any action at all, and then a short recovery lag after the G level dropped below the limit.  This could be much lower for gunners that have to stand or move around, like waist gunners, higher for those in a comfy chair. Perhaps it is already there but too low?  Avimimus would probably know.

14 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

What is completely unrealistic in this game is the way multicrew aircrafts are flown. With all this hard turns, where the pilot rolls his plane 70-80 degrees on a side. The pilot is usually the only crew member fixed in his seat by his safety belt, the gunners only have waist belts. They would be very busy all the time grabbing something to hold themselves. Not to forget the lower gunner in the Pe 2, who has to change position between left and right side plus the ventral gun. So he surely didn't have any belt at all. The same with the waist gunner in the He 111. And then I see such funny things like a Pe 2, flying upside down and the belly gunner shooting.

 

In terms of gunner effectiveness, yes, but multi-engine planes that were not in formation could and did take violent evasive action. I am thinking particularly about Lancasters etc attacked by night fighters: they corkscrewed like crazy.  So that kind of manoeuvre was certainly possible, but I agree it should have a severely detrimental effects on the gunners unless they are well strapped in. (As should spinning down to crash...  ) 

Edited October 28, 2019 by unreasonable

[ZachariasX]

What makes ALL gunners too effective, both human and AI, is that bullets fired oblique to the slipstream are not affected in their trajectory by the airstream.

 

Of you have strong wind from a side over a rotating projectile, pressure differences around the rotating bullet will make the bullet veer of course. It is very hard hiding something firing sideways. Yet shooting directly at 6 or 12 position is accurate.

 

This makes our dear Halberstadt a very deadly proposition. Way more so than a Peshka.

 

Once this ballistic effect is introduced, life on the defending plane will be much harder/shorter.

[MikhaVT]

I played a bit on MP and watched a formation of 6 Pe-2s get wiped in 12 seconds by  3 Me 109s, the AI gunners seem fine to me considering none of them scored a single hit 

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

What makes ALL gunners too effective, both human and AI, is that bullets fired oblique to the slipstream are not affected in their trajectory by the airstream.

 

Of you have strong wind from a side over a rotating projectile, pressure differences around the rotating bullet will make the bullet veer of course. It is very hard hiding something firing sideways. Yet shooting directly at 6 or 12 position is accurate.

 

This makes our dear Halberstadt a very deadly proposition. Way more so than a Peshka.

 

Once this ballistic effect is introduced, life on the defending plane will be much harder/shorter.

 

They may not have specific spin effects, but they most certainly have effects from drag. Take an He111 flying level and fire one of the waist guns: the bullets start heading out at 90 degrees and gradually fall behind in a curve.  The only way I can explain that is that the the ballistics model must be adding the two vectors of the aircraft and MV, and then calculating drag along the sum. If you want to hit a plane flying parallel at the same speed some distance away, you would have to aim in front of it.

 

The faster your plane is moving, the more pronounced this effect will be:  so in a WW1 context a rear gunner firing out to the side will have an easier time adjusting than in an He111. But that is if they try to adjust, and the AI, however, is incapable of adjusting aim for this effect. (I have tested!) It also does not adjust for the plane's vector when estimating an aim point. Ground AA does not aim off for wind.  

 

In short, I think what all AI gunners are doing, planes, turrets and AA, is estimating an aiming point based on a straight line predicted path of the target expressed in absolute coordinates (or relative to the ground) plus some base case ballistic drop.  They are obviously very good at that, but they cannot take into account other characteristics of the ballistics modeling, or the orientation of the target.

Edited October 28, 2019 by unreasonable

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

On 10/26/2019 at 12:53 PM, =BES=Savage-6 said:

110's are guilty too. Two nights ago on KOTA I made a run in from 8 o'clock from 4k above with over 600 mph and followed through below the 110.  Got completely annihilated by a single round fired.

 

I've also had this happen twice. 1 bullet = your plane explodes to confetti.  It seems to be an online-only problem. 

 

 

[Lusekofte]

Well I believe there are more to it. If it was simple it would have been fixed. Gunners know exactly where the plane is going to pop up. The damage model is simply not complex enough to divide survive able hits and catastrophic hits with bigger ammo than 7 mm

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by No.322_LuseKofte

[unreasonable]

7 hours ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

Well I believe there are more to it. If it was simple it would have been fixed. Gunners know exactly where the plane is going to pop up. The damage model is simply not complex enough to divide survive able hits and catastrophic hits with bigger ammo than 7 mm

 

 

Of course it is: it is already possible to survive hits from any ammo type, upto 30mm at least. The game uses RNGs to determine effects, so there can be whatever range of damage the developers chose to type in for the distribution, it is that simple.

 

Over effective ammunition - I agree that it is, at least in some circumstances - is a design choice, made because people seem to like the immediate feedback of wings detaching, engines stopping etc, not because of any limitations of the code. 

 

AI gunners already have various lags and other factors built in - adding a restriction on how quickly a gunner could aim at a target entering it's arc of fire would be easy.  

 

Having said all of that, the developers have said on many occasions now that anecdotes from MP are given no weight pn considering the DM, since it is impossible wholly to disentangle netcode from DM issues. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by unreasonable

[Willy__]

On 10/27/2019 at 5:39 PM, Yogiflight said:

And then I see such funny things like a Pe 2, flying upside down and the belly gunner shooting.

 

I kid you not, but once me and my friends were attacking a pe2, we somehow managed to kill his [human] top gunner, the pilot then did a roll and started flying upside down, as his friend re-entered his aircraft as the bottom gunner; we just stayed out of the gunner range and after a some time his engines starved/shut off and he crashed. LOL