109 K4 combat tips?

[SCG_motoadve]

Its not that bad of a turning fighter surprisingly, but I dont see it out climbing Spit 9s.

Was in a fight against 3 planes ,a Spit 9 , P47 and P51 on the deck, initially tried to outclimb the Spit 9 ,and it did not worked, Spit gained on me, then started turning, it was doing pretty good and evading,until after all this turning I blacked out , was shot down while sleeping, Spit also blacked out and crashed.

 

Does it out climb P51s, P38s or Tempests?

 

What are its weaker points and strengths ?

[ICDP]

Against the Spitfire and P-38 stay fast

Against the P-51D, and P-47D use your agility

Against the Tempest use your climb

 

Though to be honest it is all so close there are no guarantees, especially if the other pilot has loaded less fuel or is using the higher boost setups.

[Finkeren]

3 minutes ago, ICDP said:

Against the Spitfire and P-38 stay fast

Against the P-51D, and P-47D use your agility

Against the Tempest use your climb

 

Excellent and very simple recommendations. 

 

Flying the K4 against the late war allied fighters is all about stubbornly holding on to your advantage in any given situation. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Basically fly the K4 as if anything you come up against will kill you.  That means picking your fights, and only engaging with a clear advantage, or preferably- complete surprise.  If they start to whittle away your advantage, it's on you to know when to be able to disengage *while you still have it*.  If you haven't taken them down in the first minute, time to leave; his friends are on the way, co-alt or higher, and possibly in a better performance band than you are.  Your advantages are so slim that you'll be better off relying on the decisions you make before you engage, rather than the ones after, to get you home in one piece.

 

Really you'll be doing your team more good if you point that big 30mm at the enemy's bombers and ground attackers- again, for as little time as possible.

Edited October 10, 2019 by hrafnkolbrandr

[FTC_Riksen]

1 hour ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Its not that bad of a turning fighter surprisingly, but I dont see it out climbing Spit 9s.

Was in a fight against 3 planes ,a Spit 9 , P47 and P51 on the deck, initially tried to outclimb the Spit 9 ,and it did not worked, Spit gained on me, then started turning, it was doing pretty good and evading,until after all this turning I blacked out , was shot down while sleeping, Spit also blacked out and crashed.

 

Does it out climb P51s, P38s or Tempests?

 

What are its weaker points and strengths ?

 

It depends if we are talking about a duel or regular MP scenario. In the latter, I usually do the following:

- Find a decent wingman to join you. Flying alone will considerably hinder your SA. This applies to any fighters really but especially now with the new Alternative Visibility option;

- Reach your area of operation at a high altitude at first (at least 5k) and assess carefully the area. Dont just jump on the first contact you see. Make sure you look around from approaching contacts and possible threats, even if they are far away. Try to mentality judge how fast it would take for those contacts to reach you once the spot you fighting someone at your position and consider the risk;

- Position yourself properly during your attacks, preferably in the direction of egress and again use your wingman to cover your attacks;

- Stay fast at all times during engagements, even if your wingman has eyes on you;

- Make use of the stabilizer all the times to adjust AoA and help you in dives and turns (careful with passing out);

- Dont be afraid to use your MGs in deflection shooting. When shooting, I often place the pilots head against the window to have better view of the nose and dont even bother with the gun sight. Look at where your tracers are going and the possible trajectory of the enemy. It is guess-timation work but if you master deflection shooting, it really does pay off;

- Always engage from a position of advantage and do not stay in fights for very long. As soon as you fire, a lot of people show up as most of them can see tracers from 40km out now;

- Use your MW50 to the full power in order to have the full pressure in the boost system. Full boost gives you either 1.8 ata (DB engine) or 1.92 ata (DC engine) and lasts for 10min. Partially pressurized boost will break your engine in 1 min or so. Therefore, make sure that once engage it is all the way up;

- Avoid using flaps. Unlike the P47 flaps that make the plane turn like a Spitfire even at sustained turns, the flaps in the K4 will just wreck your energy without much benefit;

- If you are sure you are clear with no nearby enemies or possible contacts nearby and if you have someone covering you then try to engage the enemy with lower speeds in order to be more maneuverable but be very careful to not equalize your energy with the enemy. A good dogfight for the K4 is the one which the enemy is kept at disadvantage at all times;

- Use the 30mm when close or when you see the MGs connecting. Usually a single shot is enough to take the enemy down;

 

In my opinion, all of the new Allied fighters are tough opponents and the major advantage for the K4 will be speed and climb rate but the gap is very narrow now so you have to judge the enemies energy very well before committing to vertical combat.

- The P38 turns very well and usually has a good instantaneous climb so it will stay with you when you begin to climb.  Make sure you are outside of gun's range when you start your climb and, if he commits, keep your climb and use the hammer head on him. It works very well but only if you are outside of gun's range initially or if the enemy is a bad shot (usually I dont like to find that out so I treat all of them as good marksman). The P38 also turns really well despite of its size so DO NOT under-estimate its capabilities. If needed, dive ... That is right, DIVE! The P38 must engage an air brake system during a dive in order to regain control of the aircraft and that usually gives you some room to escape. Again, make sure you have the proper room to dive and dont wait to long to do so as the P38 will stay with you until he engages the air brakes;

- The P-51 is a fast Mother f****r, especially high. It will give you a run for your money when it is up high and, although it will not outclimb you, it is very fast and maneuverable when fast. Either use your superior climb rate to make him slow or try to get him into a slow turn contest which usually causes the P51 to stall before you. The instantaneous turn of the P51 is very good and the pilot will take longer than you to black out so dont stick to the Mustang's turn when he is fast. Also, you will not easily shake it off your six in a dive as it can keep up with the K4. The 50s are also very dangerous due to the large amount of ammunition they have .As a general rule, against the Mustang, I never let him have gun's range on me and a lot of times this means, at least for me, not letting the 51 get closer than 700-800m from me;

- The Spitfire MkIXe (25lbs) is, as you know very maneuverable, and will definitely outclimb you as well, especially low. The main issue it has is the speed. The K4 is faster and can dive better so it is usually easier to escape from them if you have the altitude. Do not attempt to stay with it on the turns (something that a lot of 109 and 190 pilots seem to do when I'm in a Spit). Make him belled his energy with defensive maneuvers and climb to re-engage at a better angle. Be patient and keep boom and zooming. If you notice your energy being equalized, disengage;

- The Tempest is one of the most dangerous in my opinion and you should try as hard as you can to not make any mistakes against it when it is low. It accelerates fast and is just a monster down low. The rule about staying away from gun's range is most important against the Tempest due to 4xHispanos it has. Make the Tempest follow you up high so you can have a better advantage.

 

Overall, you always have to place yourself in a advantageous position in your attacks and avoid prolonged fighting with any of them. Train deflection shooting to hurt them in the first pass, even if the spot you and turn. Remember, MP is not a duel so you shouldn't treat it as such. Speed is life .... 

[SCG_motoadve]

12 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

It depends if we are talking about a duel or regular MP scenario. In the latter, I usually do the following:

- Find a decent wingman to join you. Flying alone will considerably hinder your SA. This applies to any fighters really but especially now with the new Alternative Visibility option;

- Reach your area of operation at a high altitude at first (at least 5k) and assess carefully the area. Dont just jump on the first contact you see. Make sure you look around from approaching contacts and possible threats, even if they are far away. Try to mentality judge how fast it would take for those contacts to reach you once the spot you fighting someone at your position and consider the risk;

- Position yourself properly during your attacks, preferably in the direction of egress and again use your wingman to cover your attacks;

- Stay fast at all times during engagements, even if your wingman has eyes on you;

- Make use of the stabilizer all the times to adjust AoA and help you in dives and turns (careful with passing out);

- Dont be afraid to use your MGs in deflection shooting. When shooting, I often place the pilots head against the window to have better view of the nose and dont even bother with the gun sight. Look at where your tracers are going and the possible trajectory of the enemy. It is guess-timation work but if you master deflection shooting, it really does pay off;

- Always engage from a position of advantage and do not stay in fights for very long. As soon as you fire, a lot of people show up as most of them can see tracers from 40km out now;

- Use your MW50 to the full power in order to have the full pressure in the boost system. Full boost gives you either 1.8 ata (DB engine) or 1.92 ata (DC engine) and lasts for 10min. Partially pressurized boost will break your engine in 1 min or so. Therefore, make sure that once engage it is all the way up;

- Avoid using flaps. Unlike the P47 flaps that make the plane turn like a Spitfire even at sustained turns, the flaps in the K4 will just wreck your energy without much benefit;

- If you are sure you are clear with no nearby enemies or possible contacts nearby and if you have someone covering you then try to engage the enemy with lower speeds in order to be more maneuverable but be very careful to not equalize your energy with the enemy. A good dogfight for the K4 is the one which the enemy is kept at disadvantage at all times;

- Use the 30mm when close or when you see the MGs connecting. Usually a single shot is enough to take the enemy down;

 

In my opinion, all of the new Allied fighters are tough opponents and the major advantage for the K4 will be speed and climb rate but the gap is very narrow now so you have to judge the enemies energy very well before committing to vertical combat.

- The P38 turns very well and usually has a good instantaneous climb so it will stay with you when you begin to climb.  Make sure you are outside of gun's range when you start your climb and, if he commits, keep your climb and use the hammer head on him. It works very well but only if you are outside of gun's range initially or if the enemy is a bad shot (usually I dont like to find that out so I treat all of them as good marksman). The P38 also turns really well despite of its size so DO NOT under-estimate its capabilities. If needed, dive ... That is right, DIVE! The P38 must engage an air brake system during a dive in order to regain control of the aircraft and that usually gives you some room to escape. Again, make sure you have the proper room to dive and dont wait to long to do so as the P38 will stay with you until he engages the air brakes;

- The P-51 is a fast Mother f****r, especially high. It will give you a run for your money when it is up high and, although it will not outclimb you, it is very fast and maneuverable when fast. Either use your superior climb rate to make him slow or try to get him into a slow turn contest which usually causes the P51 to stall before you. The instantaneous turn of the P51 is very good and the pilot will take longer than you to black out so dont stick to the Mustang's turn when he is fast. Also, you will not easily shake it off your six in a dive as it can keep up with the K4. The 50s are also very dangerous due to the large amount of ammunition they have .As a general rule, against the Mustang, I never let him have gun's range on me and a lot of times this means, at least for me, not letting the 51 get closer than 700-800m from me;

- The Spitfire MkIXe (25lbs) is, as you know very maneuverable, and will definitely outclimb you as well, especially low. The main issue it has is the speed. The K4 is faster and can dive better so it is usually easier to escape from them if you have the altitude. Do not attempt to stay with it on the turns (something that a lot of 109 and 190 pilots seem to do when I'm in a Spit). Make him belled his energy with defensive maneuvers and climb to re-engage at a better angle. Be patient and keep boom and zooming. If you notice your energy being equalized, disengage;

- The Tempest is one of the most dangerous in my opinion and you should try as hard as you can to not make any mistakes against it when it is low. It accelerates fast and is just a monster down low. The rule about staying away from gun's range is most important against the Tempest due to 4xHispanos it has. Make the Tempest follow you up high so you can have a better advantage.

 

Overall, you always have to place yourself in a advantageous position in your attacks and avoid prolonged fighting with any of them. Train deflection shooting to hurt them in the first pass, even if the spot you and turn. Remember, MP is not a duel so you shouldn't treat it as such. Speed is life .... 

Thanks for taking the time and post this.

Excellent advice.

[FTC_Riksen]

9 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Thanks for taking the time and post this.

Excellent advice.

 

No problem. If you guys are still registered in the SCG website, feel free to join us in one of our events so we can fly together.

 

Cheers

[SCG_motoadve]

19 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

No problem. If you guys are still registered in the SCG website, feel free to join us in one of our events so we can fly together.

 

Cheers

Yes, will do.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Play like you play 42 era VVS plane against 109's.

 

IE, don't initiate combat if you don't have advantage in energy and or place to run for. You don't really have your uber advantages that you used to enjoy against VVS planes.

At best, you are tied, at worst, outclassed and badly. 

3 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

- The P38 turns very well and usually has a good instantaneous climb

-That is right, DIVE! The P38 must engage an air brake system during a dive in order to regain control of the aircraft and that usually gives you some room to escape

 

It has also better vertical sustained climb, i have hammerheaded so many 109's now it is not funny. P-38 will just pull away from 109 in vertical. Ofc all other hammerhead rules and limitations apply, but if P-38 has some distance on you and same energy, it can just go vertical and you will never get it under 300m before you will stall. If you cant land hits at that point, you will be eternally seal clubbed from this point on. 

 

Diving is also ill advised, as p-38 will out roll anything at dive speeds and it can exit the dive in compressability, you cant. 

P-38 is plane that i use to kill 262 from dives exactly because it is only allied plane that regain a semblance of maneuverability at 0.8 mach.

P-38 is like 110 G2, but better, it can out turn you, it can out sustain the turn and it can keep the nose up. If you ever faced XJammer in 110, you know what i am talking about. 

Your only advantage is that you have better roll at medium and low speeds, so change direction as often as you can. You are also faster at the deck, but if you dont have initial distance, you will just get hosed down by 50 cals.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Cpt_Siddy

[Krisu]

3 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

No problem. If you guys are still registered in the SCG website, feel free to join us in one of our events so we can fly together.

 

Cheers

 

Hey do you guys fly allied too? Am I allowed to try and join ?

[FTC_Riksen]

56 minutes ago, Krisu said:

 

Hey do you guys fly allied too? Am I allowed to try and join ?

 

We fly both sides for casual flights and in TAW but LW for our Dead is Dead campaign. If this is something you want to try, let me know.

[MasserME262]

4 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Play like you play 42 era VVS plane against 109's.

Guess who are at disadvantage now? Yes! Luftwaffle! ?

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Guess who are at disadvantage now? Yes! Luftwaffle! ?

Not much of a disadvantage though imo, if any at all. It's just that the Allied aircraft can perform similar and do the things that Luftwaffe are good at.

American aircraft especially are good in BnZ and high speed fights and can stick with the 109s in many situations.

 

P-38 is one of the best in this regard, it's not as fast but it has an excellent turn and climb imo, it can also zoom better than most of the aircraft in the game.

I've had 109s try to outclimb me before and I've just stuck with them and shot them down or damage them. One of the biggest mistakes I see is trying to outturn a P-38 which won't work 9 times outta 10.

[Hawk-2a]

8 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

The Tempest is one of the most dangerous in my opinion and you should try as hard as you can to not make any mistakes against it when it is low. It accelerates fast and is just a monster down low. The rule about staying away from gun's range is most important against the Tempest due to 4xHispanos it has. Make the Tempest follow you up high so you can have a better advantage.

Could not agree more. If he is closing in on you, your turn rate is better, and due to tempest pilots not having G-Suits, an instant break will black him out. This can be exploited but is also very close to your own blackout. Once you broke hard and he overshoots, instantly climb shallow on full boost. this will position you a little better and he will bleed speed on the turn back and the climb back to you if he really commits, if he does not follow, just run and come back at altitude.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Really interesting stuff, guys. I’ve not flown online in ages, but against ace AI the new aircraft show their potential so I can imagine that against a strong human pilot the margins are very small. Which is pretty on the nose in terms of how things actually went.

Edited October 11, 2019 by EAF19_Marsh

[Kurfurst]

Hmm, Ever since the ‘gravity patch’ I often get the technochat message on low injection pressure malfunction, usually after some heavy g pulling. This is usually followed by engine damage at max rating well before exceeding the 10 min limit.

 

I don’t recall having these issues earlier, could be wrong though and it would seem that somehow the g limit would effect/interfere with the MW 50 tanks delivery. Which seems to be odd since it’s not a pump but a pressure feed system.. so how it would effected by gravity forces?

[Legioneod]

14 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Hmm, Ever since the ‘gravity patch’ I often get the technochat message on low injection pressure malfunction, usually after some heavy g pulling. This is usually followed by engine damage at max rating well before exceeding the 10 min limit.

 

I don’t recall having these issues earlier, could be wrong though and it would seem that somehow the g limit would effect/interfere with the MW 50 tanks delivery. Which seems to be odd since it’s not a pump but a pressure feed system.. so how it would effected by gravity forces?

Only time I've had trouble with MW 50 is if I'm flying at higher altitudes. Atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude so if it's a purely pressure fed system maybe it doesn't work properly the higher you go? I have no idea of course but I've only ever had trouble when flying high alt.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Legioneod

[VSN_Razor]

MW-50 is only effective up to around 6000m. It shouldn't be used above that.

[CUJO_1970]

On 10/12/2019 at 2:52 AM, VO101Kurfurst said:

Hmm, Ever since the ‘gravity patch’ I often get the technochat message on low injection pressure malfunction, usually after some heavy g pulling. This is usually followed by engine damage at max rating well before exceeding the 10 min limit.

 

I don’t recall having these issues earlier, could be wrong though and it would seem that somehow the g limit would effect/interfere with the MW 50 tanks delivery. Which seems to be odd since it’s not a pump but a pressure feed system.. so how it would effected by gravity forces?

 

You have to go full throttle - if you are below 100% while in emergency power band you get "low pressure in injection system" message.

[peregrine7]

On 10/12/2019 at 5:52 PM, VO101Kurfurst said:

Hmm, Ever since the ‘gravity patch’ I often get the technochat message on low injection pressure malfunction, usually after some heavy g pulling. This is usually followed by engine damage at max rating well before exceeding the 10 min limit.

 

I don’t recall having these issues earlier, could be wrong though and it would seem that somehow the g limit would effect/interfere with the MW 50 tanks delivery. Which seems to be odd since it’s not a pump but a pressure feed system.. so how it would effected by gravity forces?

 

I am very inexperienced in the K4, so take this with a grain of salt. I also fly HUD off but-

 

When I am NOT at 100% throttle but still in Emergency engine mode I receive these warnings. As far as I'm aware this is realistic. If you want to use high combat or emergency engine power use 100% throttle or else you will not feed enough MW50 into the engine and it will destroy itself.

[Hawk-2a]

3 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

When I am NOT at 100% throttle but still in Emergency engine mode I receive these warnings. As far as I'm aware this is realistic. If you want to use high combat or emergency engine power use 100% throttle or else you will not feed enough MW50 into the engine and it will destroy itself.

You have 3x 10 minutes of emergency on 100%, but need to fly on combat for 10 minutes after each use. 
And you have max. 1 minute of emergency anything lower than 100%, if you exceed that, you‘ll destroy the engine. So make sure if you go emergency, go full throttle. 
do not use it above 6k at all.

the in game specification states this aswell.

Edited October 14, 2019 by =FC=SteelFalcon

[SCG_motoadve]

Thanks for the replies, been very useful and I have proven  them online, and this tips do work.

So we cannot use 100% power above 6,000 meters? just combat power?

 

Do this tips also applies to the G14? How different is the G 14?

 

[III/JG52_Supongo]

On 13/10/2019 at 14:31, VSN_Razor said:

MW-50 solo es efectivo hasta alrededor de 6000m. No debe usarse por encima de eso.

The MW-50 was 100% functioned as a detonator up to 6000 m high, from that height it worked as a refrigerant providing an extra yield of 4%.

The MW50 could be used above 6000 meters.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

I’m mostly a Jabo pilot for both sides so it’s pretty hypocritical but to be a successful fighter in our late war rides it seems hit and runs are the way to go.  If your a jabo pilot learn to love your a8, p38, and p47 flaps. The late war allied plane set is very effective and compliment each other well so anything other than getting in and out efficiently just leaves you open.  

Better yet grab a friend to work with, drag and bag and having someone cover you when your occupied is always good.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Hajo_Garlic

[VSN_Razor]

44 minutes ago, III/JG52_Supongo said:

The MW-50 was 100% functioned as a detonator up to 6000 m high, from that height it worked as a refrigerant providing an extra yield of 4%.

The MW50 could be used above 6000 meters.

 

Well, I said shouldn't, not couldn't. Above 6000m, you're basically wasting MW-50 due to lower efficiency.

[Kurfurst]

22 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

You have to go full throttle - if you are below 100% while in emergency power band you get "low pressure in injection system" message.

Ahh, indeed it seems I have mixed up cause and effect. I also checked the G14 and K4 mw50 operations manuals and while the text is not 100 % clear, it strongly suggest, along with the electricity plans and cockpit photos also confirm that the throttle in the extreme forward position closed the mw circuit and opened the pressure valves in the system (provided the mw flip switch was also one) to spray methanol in the eye of the supercharger. 
 

I am not 100% sure of the throttle body opening sequence (whether it opened linear above the gate or all the sudden when in the extreme position, though instructions for failure recommend that the throttle is to moved back immediately to Steig- und Kampfleistung position, which would suggest it was linear, hence a possibility of giving it boost it cannot maintain without mw.

 

On the other hand, C-3 could maintain alone 1,8 ata and B-4 about 1,5 ata without detonation, in other words no engine bang even without mw unless you go even higher; so I will have to check if that works ok. 

 

Now the system was indeed very simple, being a pressurized air system where the supercharger inlet was tapped for over pressure into the tank, which forced the mw liquid into the supercharger at about 0,7 atü (overpressure). It did work above rated altitude, giving about 4% increase of power even if manifold pressure was the same, however it was instructed not to be used due to unwanted mw consumption in the process.
 

Bottom line - I will make sure to slam the throttle forward or well back; pity we do not have the feel for the gate as in real life.