Damage model and observations thus far from MP

[No.23_Starling]

Salute friends! A few observations so far on the DM and general furball nuances.

 

1. Wings almost never fall off for me now (unlike RoF) save for a collision. My balloon guns used to shred them like tissue paper but that rarely seems to happen now. 

 

2. Pilot sniping is much easier now than in RoF. It feels a bit more realistic (firing machines guns into a pilot within 15m) and closer to real accounts. Wounding now makes pilots black out so even if you don’t kill them in the first pass they’re a sitting duck for another 10s or so to finish them off.

 

3. Disengaging is much less effective than RoF as long range shooting seems much easier. I had no problem sniping fleeing Dviifs in the Camel from some distance.

 

4. The DviiF is brilliant vs everything but the  Camel (even then it can own with height advantage). I don’t bother with the spads or SE5s it’s on the map and I’m Entente. This is made worse by the improved long distance sniping. 

 

5. The new visibility system makes bouncing much harder save coming out of the sun or clouds (as poor Zooropa discovered this evening). Yet another reason to not fly Spad and stick to the Camel.

 

6. The Camel is brilliant.

 

thoughts?

 

Oh yes, and german-only parachutes plays havoc with stats and scores!

Edited October 6, 2019 by No56_Hotwing

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Like the good ol' bad ol' days (depending on who you ask) where flying anything but a camel had little point.

[BMA_Hellbender]

56 minutes ago, No56_Hotwing said:

Salute friends! A few observations so far on the DM and general furball nuances.

 

1. Wings almost never fall off for me now (unlike RoF) save for a collision. My balloon guns used to shred them like tissue paper but that rarely seems to happen now. 

 

2. Pilot sniping is much easier now than in RoF. It feels a bit more realistic (firing machines guns into a pilot within 15m) and closer to real accounts. Wounding now makes pilots black out so even if you don’t kill them in the first pass they’re a sitting duck for another 10s or so to finish them off.

 

3. Disengaging is much less effective than RoF as long range shooting seems much easier. I had no problem sniping fleeing Dviifs in the Camel from some distance.

 

4. The DviiF is brilliant vs everything but the  Camel (even then it can own with height advantage). I don’t bother with the spads or SE5s it’s on the map and I’m Entente. This is made worse by the improved long distance sniping. 

 

5. The new visibility system makes bouncing much harder save coming out of the sun or clouds (as poor Zooropa discovered this evening). Yet another reason to not fly Spad and stick to the Camel.

 

6. The Camel is brilliant.

 

thoughts?

 

Oh yes, and german-only parachutes plays havoc with stats and scores!

 

 

Agreed with everything you wrote.

 

Two-seaters are also much less effective in both bounces or angles fights as they used to be. Defensively (or even offensively) they are good enough... provided you have an AI gunner. ?

 

Since being anywhere near a scout is quite deadly with the better pilot sniping, you want to have laserlike precision from a distance, which an AI is just better at than a human being. And I'm using Captain Darling's gunnery skills as my baseline, which says enough I hope. So I'm glad we're no longer "gaming the game" and we'll get better at it with time, but you can really "game the game" with an actual aimbot this time round.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[No.23_Starling]

You may have noticed that due to tougher wings you won’t get as many snips with your gunner as you did in RoF. I used to get most gunner kills in the Halb through shooting off wings. That adds to the gunner woes but might be more realistic. I don’t remember reading many accounts of wings being shot off by Bristol observers.

 

On the DviiF, it should be amazing just as it was in RL, but MP balance is another thing. The same goes for the Camel. I guess it’s up to the server admin to maybe limited the # of camels and Dviifs in each map. The Dr1 no longer scares me as it did in RoF now the Camel has the extra mmffff.

 

The most exciting fights I’ve had so far on MP have been in a Spad vs Dr1s and Pfalzs.

[BMA_Hellbender]

It is absolutely the damage model and I do believe it's a vast improvement over RoF. Shedding wings was silly and arcade, and it happened to the Bristol about as much as it happened to those you would attack using it. The Breguet was another story, but that plane was utterly broken.

 

The Halberstadt is also a very different plane now since the gunner is no longer able to raise or lower his gun very far, which greatly limits his options, especially in terms of forward visibility. AI gunners are not quite so heavily affected by this, and they are deadly accurate even from a distance. With an AI gunner it flies a lot like an Albatros, with one of its machineguns being a rotating aimbot. I'm really not a fan of this, since humans gunners should be encouraged, especially now that the DM is more realistic. It's apparently a problem which was inherited from the WWII part of the sim, where fighters don't even bother attacking Pe-2s and other heavy fighters, knowing just how accurate the AI is.

 

Surely it should be possible to disable AI gunners altogether?

[No.23_Gaylion]

Attack with friends who are unluckier than you?

??☠

[Zooropa_Fly]

Look Hotwing , I was tying my shoe lace at the time. To be honest if you had come into the sun instead of out of it I'd still not have noticed you !

[No.23_Starling]

If it’s any consolation the exact same thing then happened to me about 2m later when I was merrily admiring the new map. La la la ArGH

[BMA_Hellbender]

Well, I must say that I find Unconsciousness Simulator far more entertaining than WingThunder!

 

Visibility is broken, though. I don't even know where to start... Planes becoming smaller as you zoom in and disappearing completely from view as they get closer.

 

Yeah, this doesn't need more server options, this needs a(nother) hotfix.

[US103_Baer]

39 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

Visibility is broken, though. I don't even know where to start... Planes becoming smaller as you zoom in and disappearing completely from view as they get closer.

 

Yeah, this doesn't need more server options, this needs a(nother) hotfix.

 

Surely that has been addressed and we (+ server ops) now have the option.

 

- Normal vis where planes are small at long distance and get larger with increased zoom

- Alt vis (original 3.201 version) where plane at long distance is a larger blob when max zoomed out and gets smaller as you start to zoom in, BUT when you're closer to them (short to med distance) the zoom acts more normally.

 

I also can't imagine why people feel the need for WW1 aircraft to be using the Alt Vis model, but the option not to use it is there.

[Garven]

4 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

Visibility is broken, though. I don't even know where to start..

It is only broken if Alternate visibility is turned on.  Basically icons lite.

[No.23_Starling]

Sounds like a simple check-box fix for server admins then.

 

likewise I’m hoping that some admins will limit camels and dviifs for a bit of balance.

[Garven]

Just now, No56_Hotwing said:

Sounds like a simple check-box fix for server admins then.

Yeah, but unfortunately all the servers are trying to cater to the War Thunder types.

3 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

I also can't imagine why people feel the need for WW1 aircraft to be using the Alt Vis model

+1

[JGr2/J34b_Matthias]

2 hours ago, -332FG-Garven said:

Yeah, but unfortunately all the servers are trying to cater to the War Thunder types.

+1

 

What an extremely interesting statement given the discussion we just had by pm.

 

And this is a perfect example of why this community remains so fractured.  Its your way or the high way and anyone that doesnt instantly agree - I mean why should server operators take even a few days or a week to evaluate game changes and get community feedback instead of instantly reacting to your personal opinion? - is just about catering to arcade style players.

 

If we want this community to grow it cant always be about you or me.  There has to be balance and some degree of tolerance for experimentation and people that don't instantly agree.  Otherwise we all might as well just start converting over to running single player in our personal happy sandboxes where ww1 can play out exactly how we want it every time.

 

A community requires a collective vision and trust given to some to implement that vision.  We dont have a collective vision, we have fragmented pictures all over the place.  I personally intend to do my very best to weave those fragments into something meaningful.  But if players wont give server ops a chance to weave together the mosaic, and wont accept anything less than personal perfection, then I wonder if we are wasting our time.

 

Edit: OP has clarified his statement as an opinion below.  Objection withdrawn.  My opinion on his opinion sustained.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J5_Matthias

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

1 hour ago, -332FG-Garven said:

It is only broken if Alternate visibility is turned on.  Basically icons lite.

 

4 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

 

I also can't imagine why people feel the need for WW1 aircraft to be using the Alt Vis model

 

I do.

[=IRFC=Jorri]

5 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

Visibility is broken, though. I don't even know where to start... Planes becoming smaller as you zoom in and disappearing completely from view as they get closer.

 

Was this turned on on the server yesterday? I was mighty confused with spotting and it also made it extremely hard to tell if you're getting closer to a contact

[SeaW0lf]

How can we check both spotting versions? Because both might be broken (I sense they are) and we could spend years struggling with this thing, with people just saying that it is because they used the other version and vice versa. It took us years to get this update. I just hope it does not turn out the same way for a fix.

 

I'm not sure why would they release a version (alt vis) where planes teleport with zoom (shrinking in and out depending on the distance, step of the zoom and lighting). Is this supposed to simulate what? And from what you guys are saying, this is the lite icons version for novices (scratching my head)?

 

Also, at this point the visibility with zero zoom is mediocre when planes are behind the sun. In Quick Mission they start disappearing or flickering about 1.5/2k with zero zoom ((have no idea which version). So if the new spotting system was to help improve the already poor spotting we have in BOX, in part due to the poor opaque rendering to everything, now we literally can't see bananas.

 

I have an online track that might come from normal vis, I think from Syndicate (they don't shrink with zoom), but behind the sun they become a dot at close distances like 1.5/2km, which appears to be way worse than before, when we could track planes in our vicinity and devise a plan to engage (the bread and butter of WWI air combat). Now these dots are just impossible to track if you are moving your head, and my track is against the clear blue skies, so whatever else will be much worse.

 

If I recall correctly, people were complaining about spotting when we got the first two planes, saying that zero zoom gave us limited vision compared to ROF. Now it is way worse. So it appears that both versions are broken.

 

Is there an ‘official’ thread about it?

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by SeaW0lf

[JGr2/J34b_Matthias]

20 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

 

I do.

 

*scans horizon for Klugerman's plane*

OmG Learn 2 Play u Carebear!

/sarcasm

 

And thanks SeawOlf for that well thought out post.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J5_Matthias

[Garven]

47 minutes ago, J5_Matthias said:

What an extremely interesting opinion given the discussion we just had by pm.

I do not understand how my post contradicts my PM to you.  Alternative visibility is unrealistic I was asking you to turn it off.  Do you really need to drag PM's out into the public. 

Edited October 7, 2019 by -332FG-Garven

[JGr2/J34b_Matthias]

12 minutes ago, -332FG-Garven said:

I do not understand how my post contradicts my PM to you.  Alternative visibility is unrealistic my PM was asking you to turn it off.

 

No the interesting part was that I told you we were not immediately turning it off as we need to continue evaluating it and gather community input.

 

And then you responded to me that you would not fly on the server anymore and came here and said all server ops were juat catering to the war thunder crowd by running the alt vis setting.

 

You took the time to ask me directly our stance and then essentially ignored my response and came here and made a statement as it it was a fact.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J5_Matthias

[Garven]

4 minutes ago, J5_Matthias said:

stated something as my response that was not.

I was making a general response based not solely on your reply but a general statement based on what I've seen with what is happening with all the servers including the WW2 ones.

Edited October 7, 2019 by -332FG-Garven

[JGr2/J34b_Matthias]

4 minutes ago, -332FG-Garven said:

I was making a general response based not solely on your reply but a general statement based on what I've seen with what is happening with all the servers including the WW2 ones.

Thanks for clarifying that to the community.  I appreciate it.  I remove my objection to your statement of your opinion.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J5_Matthias

[SeaW0lf]

OK, there is an official thread for it.

 

 

EDIT: I'm using settings on high and 4X AA.

 

There are two spotting options. Alternate Plane Visibility checked and unchecked (mission options in SP). I'm not sure if server ops have more options (could you guys please clarify this for us?)

 

Alternate Plane Visibility is the current teleporting planes at different zoom stages and lighting. I have no idea what they are trying to simulate, so I won't even elaborate on it - the feature is simply bananas.

 

And Alternate Plane Visibility unchecked is the normal zoom, but looks like the near sighting got extremely reduced due to the sun dynamics. Does anyone confirm that Alternate Plane Visibility unchecked gives us less near sighting? Before the update I could track nearby planes and devise tactics. Now you have to use zoom all the time, a thing we did for far away contacts. I tested now in SP and planes become a tiny dot or disappear even at real close distances like 1.3/1.4km depending on the sun position. So planes that can reach you in a few seconds (therefore a direct threat to your space) become invisible if you are tracking different planes, and this with clear skies and the sun at mid-day. I can only imagine with clouds and atmospheric conditions.

 

At this point, both visibility options are broken. The visibility update was so damaging that I even forgot to check how the visibility is beyond 10k. looks like so dim that we might only see a difference in flak.

Edited October 7, 2019 by SeaW0lf

[SYN_Haashashin]

Guys,

 

Leave whatever you talk in private there, in private.

 

About visibility, we did test yesterday and even the VR guys think that the AV thing is way to unrealistic and make it confusing (you think the plane is 10km out when in reality its 50+!, not to speak about seeing planes the other side of the mud from 20+ km inside our side!) We agreed we wont be using it at all and will be not on when server is up.

 

Its harder to spot? yes, its imposible? no. I rather zoom an actually zoom in that what happens with AV..my personal opinion there.

 

Haash

[BMA_Hellbender]

I don’t mind icons although I prefer to fly without them. However I really don’t care for this alternative visibility business, it reminds me too much of RoF’s “realistic gunnery” option, which ended up being the setting no one used since it had gunnery spread, even though the devs said time and time again that less spread is more realistic, which is what we have in FC now.

 

EDIT: I want to clarify that the real issue is muscle memory and scan habits. With icons on, no problem, hardly any need to scan/zoom. Without icons it’s all about scanning a portion of the sky, zooming in and maybe seeing contacts appear, and if not moving on to the next bit of sky. Having that work against you feels wrong.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

The AV is seriously not even that bad.  Some people need to tweak their settings.  I don't get the glowing dots at 40k that people are claiming, even on WoL.

 

Mountain out of a mole hill.

[Panzerlang]

The unchecked-boxed view mode seems to work pretty well in VR. But if it's up against non-VR players we get screwed.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J3Hetzer

[No.23_Gaylion]

First off I'm not a pilot IRL but I spent a few years as an aerial observer in my department. 

 

One thing LOVED to try to do was spot other planes in between the missions where I was supposed to be watching the ground, cars, etc. Even when I knew the direction,  direction of travel, and distance via radar of the nearby plane, it was damn near impossible for me to spot it. I dont wear or need glasses and have exceptional eyesight. The only times I would pick them up is when they were pretty close as in less than 1km away.  I would equivalate that to some poor guy in WW1 with the minimal amount of training sent to the front. 

 

I posted in another thread about being able to pick up low CL2s around 6km away. Something I know I definitely could not do IRL. 

 

Yes, anecdotes. But whatev.

 

I am enjoying whatever setting JG1 server had last night. It was not the huge black blob like before the little mini hot fixes, for what its worth. 

[SeaW0lf]

38 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

The only times I would pick them up is when they were pretty close as in less than 1km away. 

 

You mean against the sky? Because at almost 2km I can see those slim executive choppers parked and it is big in my visual field. One was landing at about 1km (it crossed above me) and when it was landing (against the terrain) I was surprised how close it appeared to be. It is just impossible to miss it in mid air, even a Nieuport or an E3. It felt like I was a few hundred yards away. I imagine that at least until 3km we should not have any difficulties to spot nearby planes against the sky. While at this point they become a small dot even at 1.5km, which then renders them useless to build a situation awareness of nearby planes.

 

Over terrain is another story and BOX is a black hole anyway below the horizon line. I see all the time people unaware that I'm just below a couple hundred meters (yards) away.

 

Regarding newbie’s at war, I think this is irrelevant. We can’t hinder visibility to mimic what a novice would see. Novices did not saw things because they had no spatial awareness, the same way that when we started here we were just lost trying to figure more than one contact and don't get overwhelmed with information. But if veterans of years playing this game are having a hard time to spot things, then something is really wrong.

 

From what people are saying in the official thread, the devs want it to be really hard to see. Well, looks like really unrealistic to me. And then people naturally go away. Especially talking about spotting, which is a primordial feature in aerial WWI combat. At this point, the visibility update is even worse than it already was before.

Edited October 7, 2019 by SeaW0lf

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

The AV is seriously not even that bad.  Some people need to tweak their settings.  I don't get the glowing dots at 40k that people are claiming, even on WoL.

 

Mountain out of a mole hill.

It is for me, I see white contacts everywhere from huge distances and they are so easy to notice , one  could say they glow.  Tested on WOL and Jasta5 Arras FC. I don't like this option , it's to easy. I do see "problem" in transition when white object get  closer and get proper color (camo) and size but in most cases I'm able to  track them fine. I do not have oprtuunity to test other option , maybe in this weekend some server would switch to other visibility setting.

Edited October 7, 2019 by 307_Tomcat

[BMA_Hellbender]

45 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said:

First off I'm not a pilot IRL but I spent a few years as an aerial observer in my department. 

 

One thing LOVED to try to do was spot other planes in between the missions where I was supposed to be watching the ground, cars, etc. Even when I knew the direction,  direction of travel, and distance via radar of the nearby plane, it was damn near impossible for me to spot it. I dont wear or need glasses and have exceptional eyesight. The only times I would pick them up is when they were pretty close as in less than 1km away.  I would equivalate that to some poor guy in WW1 with the minimal amount of training sent to the front.

As a pilot flying the winged equivalent of a Ford Fiesta (ladies please form an orderly line), I can spot jack shit. No, actually, it’s getting to the point where I can consistently spot planes in the pattern, provided the tower tells me exactly where they are. It doesn’t help that every plane is painted white and that most buildings in Spain are white, too. They really ought to paint these bugsmashers orange or something. They probably will at some point, there’s been like three collisions this year already. It’s the one thing that genuinely scares me about flying VFR. Everything else about flying VFR also scares me, but not so much.

 

Camouflaged WWI planes flying close to the ground (such as the Halberstadt) should be damn near invisible until you’re right on top of them.

[JGr2/J34b_Matthias]

50 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

As a pilot flying the winged equivalent of a Ford Fiesta (ladies please form an orderly line), I can spot jack shit. No, actually, it’s getting to the point where I can consistently spot planes in the pattern, provided the tower tells me exactly where they are. It doesn’t help that every plane is painted white and that most buildings in Spain are white, too. They really ought to paint these bugsmashers orange or something. They probably will at some point, there’s been like three collisions this year already. It’s the one thing that genuinely scares me about flying VFR. Everything else about flying VFR also scares me, but not so much.

 

Camouflaged WWI planes flying close to the ground (such as the Halberstadt) should be damn near invisible until you’re right on top of them.

 

As a private pilot this pretty much mirrors my experience in the US.  ATC says "traffic ahead five miles" and I usually don't see it till a mile or less.  Doesn't really matter if it's crossing my vision or headed direct towards me.  Looking down and spotting against ground clutter or against a cloud is also much harder than out into the blue.

Edited October 7, 2019 by J5_Matthias

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I think that FC damage model is better than old (ROF) but I have hope for some further addition from il2 standard like damage to control cables, cocpit instruments /gagues and different that dust cloud  hit effect when bullets strike metal parts of the plane - now same effect is across whole plane - hit on engine cowling is same as at fabric fusulage.

 

 

I don't like how wings damage is cumulative , I would like to aim and see my bullets do inflict damaged to specific objects like :

-bracing wires, struts 

-spars, girders,ribs   

 

Why not go and ask for damage modeled to:

- synchronizing gear

- propeller (can't be damaged by bullets),

 
I don't think we ever would have tattered fabric hanging or torn off engine do dynamic imbalance but I would change how observer is glued to back sit , read many stories when plane 

" flopped over on his back" and observer fell out.   I noticed that AI do like to fly   inverter and AI Gunner is happy to defend the ship in that position ?

One could think of many more but just some of this wish list would be nice to have

 

[Chill31]

To see a single WWI plane at low altitude at 2-3 miles would be realistic.  To see a formation at 3-8 miles would also be realistic.  The longer distance corresponding to larger formations. 

 

At high altitudes, you might get 30% improvement.

[No.23_Triggers]

I really like the difficult spotting. I think, based on what I’ve read, that it’s the more realistic option. Spotting was hard and came with experience. 

 

Going back to the damage model for a bit, I am absolutely in love with it. Yes, your wings are a lot safer, but, man, do you feel vulnerable when compared to RoF! Every time I hear bullets hitting my machine I expect to be knocked unconscious, and it always puts a smile on my face when you come back in a plane absolutely riddled with holes and sit there wondering “how the hell did the pilot not get hit?” 

 

I've also noticed that, even before the loss-of-consciousness feature was added, pilot hits are a lot more serious than in RoF. Typically when you get hit, you get hit bad, and unless someone comes in and saves your bacon then you've had it. On the flip-side, you can tell when you've got someone after a good burst. Really adds a whole new level to WW1 flying for me. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by US103_Larner

[Panzerlang]

6 minutes ago, US103_Larner said:

I really like the difficult spotting. I think, based on what I’ve read, that it’s the more realistic option. Spotting was hard and came with experience. 

 

Going back to the damage model for a bit, I am absolutely in love with it. Yes, your wings are a lot safer, but, man, do you feel vulnerable when compared to RoF! Every time I hear bullets hitting my machine I expect to be knocked unconscious, and it always puts a smile on my face when you come back in a plane absolutely riddled with holes and sit there wondering “how the hell did the pilot not get hit?” 

 

I've also noticed that, even before the loss-of-consciousness feature was added, pilot hits are a lot more serious than in RoF. Typically when you get hit, you get hit bad, and unless someone comes in and saves your bacon then you've had it. Really adds a whole new level to WW1 flying for me. 

 

 

This. ^

[No.23_Starling]

Yes it does make it rather more exciting! It also make flying BnZ much harder (which is why I avoid flying anything but the Camel if Dviifs are around). I find a more aggressive dive to disengage is necessary, much like I read pilots did when they were outturned (Gould writes about Albis doing this when he was duelling in his Pup).

 

i do love the idea of additional damage modelling such as spar, wire, and instrument damage. I don’t think we will get it anytime soon but a flyer can dream!

[US103_Baer]

2 minutes ago, No56_Hotwing said:

Yes it does make it rather more exciting! It also make flying BnZ much harder (which is why I avoid flying anything but the Camel if Dviifs are around). I find a more aggressive dive to disengage is necessary, much like I read pilots did when they were outturned (Gould writes about Albis doing this when he was duelling in his Pup).

 

i do love the idea of additional damage modelling such as spar, wire, and instrument damage. I don’t think we will get it anytime soon but a flyer can dream!

 

BnZ is a bit tougher in FC but its definitely do-able and as Larner points out if you get a good bounce the EA is on his way to join the Dodo. No 2nd pass required.

 

We've noticed some additional damage modeling. Just this morning i managed to knock out both Larner's vickers. His pilot and plane were otherwise ok. Well, ok for a few minutes that is ? 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I didn't know he was coming, but Hotwing put my lights out in around 1/10th of a second the other night.

There's a few who can manage that in RoF with alarming regularity, although I've no idea how - never managed to do that myself after many years of play.

So I'm not seeing much difference in the crack-shots being able to hit me at least !

 

I think fuselage's and wings aren't showing the damage they should after lots of hits. I think they're too strong now.

About every other plane I shoot down ends up a flamer. Same in RoF even after the devs made the change to that.

I can bludgeon away from close range at the cockpit area in RoF but nothing ever seems hit the pilot (or gunners).

Having said that, in FC I'm getting the odd pilot kill, so they don't seem to be taking as many hits, probably as it should be.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Tail plane eats up shots on the 6. Aim for the meat and metal. Disregard the wings. 

 

Although, been seeing a lot of cool stuff with the new wound models. You can get shot up knocked unconscious, come to, and be too wounded to operate the plane. You just spiral into your death. 

 

Would like to see incorporated slower head movements when wounded.