What happened to flight sims?

[TheBlackPenguin]

On 10/7/2019 at 10:33 AM, Archie said:

That was, for me, the golden era,  I flew online with a great squad, and often 30-40 hours a week, long into the early hours, especially in the online wars. Things have never quite been the same since, but it's strange how so many of the old players just disappeared, and even the ones I know from those days mainly just play offline.

 

For me the golden age was the old Tornado and its ile like Falcon 4 with its massive campaign, online was also secondary. As I was more of an offline player the original Il2 didn't hook me as much, but I had other factors which were more intrusive at the time lol.

[Alesia]

This is my personal opinion and it's probably going to run contrast to what some people have been putting out there (ie short attention spans, instant reward, ect ect)
I'm 26 just for reference.

In my opinion, a lot of the lack of interest in flight sims boils down to 2 reasons.

-Money
-Freetime

Basically today, in my age group  and younger most people are working 2 or even three jobs, have crushing student loan debt, and barely get by with all their other bills and rent piled on top of that.  Lets look at IL2: BOS for example, you are looking at $50 for BOS Standard Edition, then $50 x 3 for the expansions.  Plus at least $50 for a Cheap HOTAS X flight stick. Plus a computer that can run the game, which the price will vary wildly on.  Assuming we are looking at a person that has a good computer already, it's $100 minimum in start up costs, including a finicky control device that they will use for 1, maybe 2 games total.  That's not even adding in the other expansions if they want say, the P-38J

So if I take my average friend working 2 jobs to get by, they will have 0-1 hours of free time a day.  I did a JU-87 bombing run earlier today that took 45 minutes in all.  45 Minutes of mostly doing nothing. This is excluding the time it took to set up my joystick.  At the end of all that there is no progression in BOS, it's not rewarding other then the rewarding attitude I set for myself when I hit my target.  I see people ragging on WT a lot but look at it this way.  You love planes/tanks/whatever and you have 1 hour to play, naturally you are probably going to pick the game that will make you feel at least somewhat rewarded, you can play several matches in an hour, and you will visually see progression towards the next plane/tank/whatever that you are going for.  Feel like you got something done, had a little low stress excitement, so you can go to bed and wake up to go straight to work so you don't get evicted.   More free time, disposable income, and lower stress overall would go light years towards attracting more people to these games.

I do not believe a lack of interest in history is the culprit.  Youtube channels like The Great War or games like Warthunder or World of Warships even wouldn't be as popular as they are if that was the case.  It's not a lack of interest per-say, but a lack of time/money.  Most people/families these days would be bankrupted by a $400 medical bill, just for reference.  Dropped several hundred on a game is out of the question.  Heck the only reason I have BOS is because someone kindly gifted me a founder code, I would have never been able to afford it.  My joystick is a Sidewinder Precision Pro that I pulled out of a thrift store for $20.  I gave up my lunches for the week to afford even that so.....reality is harsh for younger people rn.

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

1 hour ago, Alesia said:

in my age group  and younger most people are working 2 or even three jobs, have crushing student loan debt, and barely get by with all their other bills and rent piled on top of that

 

No, they don't. Only a small minority of Americans work multiple jobs [1]. From recent college enrollment and loan figures, it seems that most young people have not incurred student debt [2], [3].

 

1 hour ago, Alesia said:

I gave up my lunches for the week to afford even that so.....reality is harsh for younger people rn.

 

Real income in the 15-24 and 25-34 age categories has actually gone up [4]. Americans are spending record amounts on video games [5].

 

While economics certainly plays a role in shaping the genre, I don't think that recent trends can be explained by a lack of time or money among consumers.

 

References

1. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/4-point-9-percent-of-workers-held-more-than-one-job-at-the-same-time-in-2017.htm
2. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/hsgec.nr0.htm
3. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2017-student-loans.htm
4. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-income-people.html
5. http://www.theesa.com/press-releases/u-s-video-game-sales-reach-record-breaking-43-4-billion-in-2018/

Edited October 9, 2019 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[cardboard_killer]

I grew up at a time when there were major, weekly, television shows set in WW2. When there wasn't cable television, let alone hulu, netflix, amazon, etc. pumping out content, just shows like Baa Baa Blacksheep, Combat, even McHale's Navy. The idea that today's youth have that kind of connection with (albeit fictionalized/hollywood version) WW2 is a bit ludicrous.

 

When I went to Disney World as a kid, they handed me a .22 at the shooting gallery and said knock yourself out, kid. Now it's a pellet gun that is fixed forward.

 

And get off my lawn!

[Alesia]

4 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

No, they don't. Only a small minority of Americans work multiple jobs [1]. From recent college enrollment and loan figures, it seems that most young people have not incurred student debt [2], [3].

 

 

Real income in the 15-24 and 25-34 age categories has actually gone up [4]. Americans are spending record amounts on video games [5].

 

While economics certainly plays a role in shaping the genre, I don't think that recent trends can be explained by a lack of time or money among consumers.

 

References

1. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/4-point-9-percent-of-workers-held-more-than-one-job-at-the-same-time-in-2017.htm
2. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/hsgec.nr0.htm
3. https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2018-economic-well-being-of-us-households-in-2017-student-loans.htm
4. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-income-people.html
5. http://www.theesa.com/press-releases/u-s-video-game-sales-reach-record-breaking-43-4-billion-in-2018/

 Source 1: Directly contradicts my lived experience but whatever, data is data. 

Source 2 : Doesn't say anything about student debt put does show high job market participation  and over 10% unemployment rate.  (ie people don't have jobs or do not have adequate jobs)

Source 3: Directly contradicts your claim " Student loans are by far the most common form, held by 94 percent of those with their own education debt outstanding. In addition, 30 percent have some other form of debt for their education, including 25 percent who have borrowed with credit cards, 6 percent with a home equity line of credit, and 7 percent with some other form. "  94% is far from low.  53% of that is still outstanding loans either that are on time or behind on payments.  " Among those who ever incurred debt from their education, 11 percent are currently behind on their payments, 42 percent have outstanding debt and are current on their payments, and 47 percent have completely paid off their loans. "  In the 18-29 bracket on that survey's first graph we can see that a minimum of 43% of students acquired debt while going to college...that's a lot of people, that's nearly half of 18-29 year olds who attended college.  The very first sentence says: " Over half of young adults who went to college took on some debt, including student loans, for their education. Repayment of this debt can be challenging. "

Source 4: Actually shows consistently that wages are not even keeping up with inflation rate (at least in the US) by about .70% give or take a few .000s here and there per year.

Source 5:  Game initial sales ///////////////////////////////////////////////////// Hours actually played per person.


But I'm not going to argue this further, not the place nor time.

[CanadaOne]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 10:57 PM, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

 

I honestly think that War Thunder has done more good than bad. It’s gotten people more interested in flight sims - most people I know who are interested in IL-2 started off with War Thunder, and that’s what led to their interest in IL-2.

 

My buddy was playing with some flightsim on his Xbox many years ago, and I told him he needed to up his game, literally. He had a sit down session with the original IL2 at my place and that was that. He bought a PC and HOTAS and has been flying the original IL2 to this day.

[Majakowski]

I think we do not need to dig deep into philosophy. As market economies are there must be a hopefully wealthy buyer community. As things are getting way more complex making development more expensive there have to be many buyers wanting to spend more money on "less" conent. Less meaning not as many planes or other features for the sake of complexity of the things you have.

 

So we have already a limited number of consumers making such complicated and expensive simulations less attractive for businesses. In fact the only developers of really good simulation contents I know are pilots or airplane owners themselves and/or are knee deep in the topic and almost fanatic giving the patience and energy and the will to invest and take a risk only to get things right.

 

While there are many many airplane fans in the world the least of them are in a position or do want to run such a business. The amount of research that goes into such simulations is huge and you really need to have specialists to find or interpret certain things. And then your customer community still won't be pleased entirely. You can't even remotely satisfy the most of it at the same time.

 

So this kind of simulation nowadays is imo more of a risk than an opportunity as the really dedicated consumers are very limited (and have always been) and companies like....I can't even spell it without getting sick...proved more successful in rushing games for the mass market regardless of the state they were in and the communities they scared off with that. This companies took over development studios (say of Silent Hunter, SimCity and so on), forced their strategy upon them and finally they (the developers) collapsed. This is how the market works. A dedicated player base did play no role in modern marketing in the last years.

 

So it effectively boils down to economy. Cheaply created products for the mass market are reliable money cows and the advance in technology and the amount of effort in content creation prevent ever more small companies or individuals from entering the market. You need lots of capital (or free time which means the same) to get the work done properly for what you might have gotten done within a few weeks in earlier days of simulation. 

[Nolly]

All forms of aviation are dying IRL. 

 

General Aviation, Sailplane Gliding and Hang Gliding are all dropping off. I can speek for Hang gliding which is in its death throes as the old guard are aging out, and there is negligible interest of new joiners. GA and Sailplanes i i hear about from others - the current shortage of pilots in the aviation industry is well known

 

I think what the OP is seeing is this trends impact on the virtual world as well.  The romance of flying as a recreational activity has largely disappeared.

[Bremspropeller]

9 hours ago, =[TIA]=jnoelcq said:

All forms of aviation are dying IRL. 

 

General Aviation, Sailplane Gliding and Hang Gliding are all dropping off. I can speek for Hang gliding which is in its death throes as the old guard are aging out, and there is negligible interest of new joiners. GA and Sailplanes i i hear about from others - the current shortage of pilots in the aviation industry is well known

 

I think what the OP is seeing is this trends impact on the virtual world as well.  The romance of flying as a recreational activity has largely disappeared.

 

I wouldn't say that aviation is dying per se. It faces fierce competition by other "markets" for recreational activity. There is a whole sports and fitness craze going around and people are spending lots of time in the gym. Other people are using Netflix or the internet to entertain themselves. Others (like ourselves) are using computer-games or consoles.

Then there is the money-issue: Flying has become very costly. And it's a sport/ occupation that requires devotion, an eye for detail and training. It takes time to become a semi-proficient pilot (and you need those tests and check-rides be completed and passed). It's not as easy as getting a gym-membership or downloading a game and plying it for some hours.

 

Take me for example: The nearest airport (well, GA airport - there is a large one right outside my house, actually) is some 40km away and the prices for chartering aren't exactly wallet-friendly. I'm currently hardly staying proficient in any of their airplanes because it takes so much ca$h to fly those damned things. Oh yeah, the nearest reasonable club is some 80km away - not much of a better option there...

[PaladinX]

Flight Sim was always & will ever be a niche software. The more realism, the more niche.

From my experience with nearly all Flightsim Software from the last 3 decades, today its distributed like this (and we never had such a big choice at once!)

 

 

Biggest part: WarThunder (mostly MP) - costs nothing, gives some flying action, nice graphics, easy to come in. Can be the entrance to the world of flight simulators...

 

Then some classics:

- FSX and P3D and X-Plane have a huuuuuuge community and a lot of content (SP&MP)

- DCS (i would say focal point is MP, because there is not really much SP content - DCS world is empty, static, dead). But very good technical realization of single machines)

- Sturmovik BoX (i think mostly SP, with a handful guys in MP) - i think Career Mode is keeping it alive for SP Gamers...

- Falcon BMS (still the best modern fighter simulator that can also be named a game with the legendary dynamic campaign) (SP & MP)

- Sturmovik 46 + B.A.T.-Mod (mostly SP, nearly dead in MP)

- Sturmovik CLOD (mostly MP)

- Wings over Flanders Fields (SP only, literally the best WW1 Flight Sim with an ongoing, living world around you (IMMERSION!!)(based on old CFS3)

- Wings over the Reich (SP only, Channel only, same IMMERSION strengths)

 

I think not really played anymore

- the Janes series

- EAW

- even older stuff...

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by PaladinX

[Sokol1]

Another thing is that in 90's "flight simulators" (and ship, tank simulators) are move evident because game variety are less, with few WWII FPS that worth mention, e.g. Hidden and Dangerous and Half Life are a "thing".

[Lusekofte]

On 10/6/2019 at 4:59 AM, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

 

Like I said, players these days mainly do single player.

There is a reason for it. I like flying objectives and the only thing keeping me on mp occasionally is the stutter I expirience in SP campaigns not happening in mp.

Flying for historical interest is not really  life preserving actuvity in dogfight oriented servers