Any chance in Lagg against Bf.109?

[flying_sorcerer]

Hi guys, how do you guys manage to survive in a Lagg?  I've tried head-on (perhaps your best bet), scissors, turning as hard as I could towards the 109, but they always seem to get me.  If by any chance I manage to get them to overshoot, they just fly upwards where I have no chance of catching them.

 

It does not help that they tend to get you when you're lower and without speed, because you just took off...  and that's when we're not still on the runway!  I even asked if we could at least take off, and one nice 109 guy (gal?) said "no"!  Oh well, I guess I just need to rant, but even though I'm a fairly lousy pilot, I just can't hop in a 109 when they are already at 4 against 2, and Laggs are most of the time outnumbered.  What's more frustrating is that many (most!) of those 109 are much better pilots, so it's unfair squared...  I don't mind getting shot 5 to 1, but 15-1 is pretty much where it's at and it's not so much fun anymore!

 

So... anyone knows what to do against a 109 that's coming at you faster, higher???

 

(and if it's not faster, higher, to start with, it's not long before it becomes, since the engine is sooo much more powerful...)

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's the same story in any flight sim online environment. If it's a no-holds barred match then they will shoot you on the ground. This is why so many IL-2 servers instituted no-vulching rules so that people could at least take off.

 

The LaGG-3 is definitely in trouble against the Bf109. It holds few advantages so you really have to work hard for your kills. The best things going for it are its tough construction and optionally heavy firepower. The 23mm VYa cannon is worth a look. One or two hits will wreck a 109.

 

Other than that, you have to use traditional fighter tactics. You need to engage with energy advantage be it by having height or speed. The 109 more easily holds both but victory is much more likely if you're flying with something to work with. Work with a teammate and use weave tactics to clear tails and defeat the enemy that way. Use the boom and zoom or pendulum style attack by sweeping through the combat area at speed and trying to pick a target if one presents. Otherwise fly off and come back in again from a higher altitude.

 

The LaGG-3 at present has excellent roll rate and it has decent dive acceleration... so you want to make any break turns with the nose down below the horizon and attempting to hold and build as much speed to allow the manuever as possible. But don't keep it up... a prolonged turn is bad for a LaGG-3 generally as it bleeds too much speed due to its lack of engine power versus weight of the airframe.

 

I figured from experience in IL-2 Forgotten Battles and IL-2 1946 that the LaGG-3 Series 29 would have serious difficulties with the Bf109F-4 (nothing to say about the higher performing G-2). The LaGG-3 is definitely an underdog but it does have some charm, some serious firepower options, and in a more team oriented scenario it'd be best to employ the LaGG-3s against attack planes and level bombers while the Yak-1 hunts the fighters.

Edited April 6, 2014 by IceFire

[FuriousMeow]

Step 1: Situational awareness. Many forget that aspect and figure they can just fly into a fight and win by yanking and banking. The most prominent key to success in air combat is strategy, Manfred von Richtofen was the most successful fighter pilot not because of his amazing abilities to fly the plane to its limits and defeat aircraft superior to his due to his amazing abilities but by retaining a strategical advantage either by numbers, height, being on his own side of the lines or utilizing the sun. Oswald Boelcke was his mentor and through his teachings thats how MvR became the fighter pilot of legend, it wasn't his prowess or inherent fighter piloting abilities - it was strategery.

 

Step 2: Teamwork. Work with others to bring down superior performing aircraft.

 

Step 3: There is no such thing as fair. The best you can do is prepare by having altitude, numbers, and tactical advantages but even the most prepared can go out the window faster than a kitty cat jumping after a bird.

Edited April 6, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Finkeren]

Pretty simple: start with the energy advantage, and depending on how big an advantage you hold, you have between 30sec and 3-4minutes to close the deal, before he catches up to you.

 

Winning a 1 on 1 combat against a human piloted 109 when you don't have the advantage, will be down to either pure luck or incompetence of the other player, and you shouldn't rely on that.

 

In combat with more than 2 participants it will almost always be team work that carries the day, regardless of plane type.

 

In short: Use air start in MP, get up get high and find some trusty wingmen, and you can make Jerry squeel.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Finkeren

[Sokol1]

 

It does not help that they tend to get you when you're lower and without speed, because you just took off...  and that's when we're not still on the runway!

 

Airquake... If the enemy are over you base, select Air Start from rear one and fly 4 minutes... and try use some of the above recipe.

 

Sokol1

[DickDong]

Lagg pilots will be experts at singling out the novice 109 pilots.  A smart Lagg will run from a well flown 109 or call for help.

Edited April 6, 2014 by jarhead2b

[BraveSirRobin]

Look for the 109s that are busy trying to kill someone else.  Only fly on the Expert server and  use the clouds for cover. 

[DickDong]

Look for the 109s that are busy trying to kill someone else.  Only fly on the Expert server and  use the clouds for cover. 

Look for the 109's that just smacked into the deck, then pump another trigger squeeze into the burning wreck to make sure.

[Georgio]

If the vulchers are out then you have no choice but to air start. Gain some height fly over to the forward air base and hit the 109's at the top of their climbs, you can easily dive with them and chew them up.

Map mg's and the cannon to one button as you want to kill them in one burst.

[DickDong]

Another less glamorous 109 kill is to survive long enough for him to smack the deck. You don't get the kill stat wise, but the warm and fuzzy you really did kill him and you still have bullets. Seems like the Lagg can bob and weave a bit.

[sturmkraehe]

Put all inexistant advantages on your side and get 'em!

Edited April 6, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I can and have defended against a well flown 109 in the Bnz. But if you are lower, slower you're fighting his fight and you have no chance unless he gets impatient and makes a mistake. Lower than the 109 all you can do is make S turns and force the overshoot or not give him a target as he starts his boom, then hit the deck and run. 

[Finkeren]

I just wonder if a 109 pilot can really feel pride in his kills (apart from newcomers to the genre). It is so ridiculously easy to kill a Lagg 3 in it that I simply refuse to fly it. If you're frustrated I suggest:

 

Take a break from MP and play quick mission. The ai is no big deal even if it sits in a 109.

 

a kill against a 109 in a Lagg is 15 times worthier than a kill against a Lagg 3 in a 109. So your kill ratio is perfectly ok.

For this reason I have not yet flown the Bf 109 in MP. I'll give it at go, when the Yak is introduced.

[Streiff]

Most shots taken from a 109 is a blind shot. Even the slightest decent, from any angle, before shooting means a blind shot unless he cuts into your flight path. Lagg`s/allied guns are lasers (what else is new in flight sims) and more effective from further out. Partly because they are nose mounted and partly because the 109`s gun dispersion is ridicules. Figure out what that means and use it.

 

Talking about hight and speed advantage is kind of obvious since it applies to every fighter no matter what kind it is.

 

 

As far as being the underdog, welcome to years of flying IL2 Sturmovik on the axis side. Those years tough me, at least, to be very restrictive about what i do and dont do.

 

 

Anyways, this underdog issue wont last long, when BoS is released everything will be back to normal.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Baron

[kongxinga]

I have the Il-2 1946 aircraft guide open and it says that the Lagg-3 29 has "excellent performance characteristics for the time period" and "good maneuverability". It also advises Lagg-pilots to force the BF109 to slow down and commit to a turn fight or rolling scissors. Guide also says in capable hands Lagg-3 can defeat almost any enemy, but  I think that is home team bias talking or excessive optimism, because  I can't see any of the "excellent performance characteristics" and when I force the BF to commit to a turn fight or rolling scissors I am the first one to stall and have to quickly counteract with pedals, while the BF can turn forever.

 

In short, I think the guide is questionable, and I am following the thread closely.

[PantsPilot]

I'm, new here so "hi" first of all, secondly I don't actually own this yet but do intend to buy once its completed - only found out about it a couple of days ago when I returned to il-2 after a long lay-off (windows 7 inspired), following the discovery of the new windows 7/8 friendly "il-2 ultimate collection". I've since bought CLOD and am really enjoying it, might have been duff when first released, but it's awesome now.

 

I think the best way to fly a LaGG 3 v Bf-109f (well named by the way as they usually "lag" behind 109's) in the offensive is to try and keep a high airspeed and not to turn too much as that bleeds it off, use all the traditional advantages; height and sun, and look for a 109 that's pre-occupied. Defensively dive down, turn and huddle behind your armour plate if fitted!

[wtornado]

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

In 1946 coops and modded coops no one wanted or would fly

the LaGG series or the MiG series aircraft due to the lack of performance.

 

YAK's and P-39's were the party favorites.

 

I personally loved the YAK.

[FlatSpinMan]

I'd say there are two chances: 'slim', and 'none'. That said, following the excellent advice above , you can go a long way with a slim chance but you really have to think about it and work for it.

[Finkeren]

I don't think it's that bad FSM. Having the advantage is still having the advantage, and if you can start out your attack from an advantagous position, which isn't hard most of the time on MP right now, you are pretty much guaranteed at least 2 good shots at your opponent. The difficulty is making those shots count, because the Bf 109 can reverse the situation very quickly, and then you're pretty much helpless.

[Volkoff]

When Cujo isn't using me for a chew toy on the US Expert server, I tend to think that the LaGG-3 isn't half bad. I still have not had the chance of simflying with my entire squad, but I think that the LaGG-3 will do just fine, if a squad uses group tactics. I hope that the VVS players aren't looking to do away with their LaGGs, anytime soon. I would like to see multiplayer campaigns where the VVS starts out with the I-16, LaGG-3, and the P-40 and then moves on to the Yak-1 and the La-5, as the campaign progresses. I am not sure  if we will get a P-40 in game, but we are getting the I-16 and we already have the LaGG-3, so we could also just start out with the I-16 and LaGG-3 in a multiplayer campaign, but the P-40 would be great to have, too.  MJ

Edited April 6, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[ShamrockOneFive]

I have the Il-2 1946 aircraft guide open and it says that the Lagg-3 29 has "excellent performance characteristics for the time period" and "good maneuverability". It also advises Lagg-pilots to force the BF109 to slow down and commit to a turn fight or rolling scissors. Guide also says in capable hands Lagg-3 can defeat almost any enemy, but  I think that is home team bias talking or excessive optimism, because  I can't see any of the "excellent performance characteristics" and when I force the BF to commit to a turn fight or rolling scissors I am the first one to stall and have to quickly counteract with pedals, while the BF can turn forever.

 

In short, I think the guide is questionable, and I am following the thread closely.

In context it isn't wrong. The LaGG-3 Series 29 represented a fairly impressive boost up from the earlier versions of the LaGG-3 which were even heavier and had more bugs. By comparison, the Series 29 is fairly well evolved for the series.and if you compare it to the I-16 and I-15(3) that were commonly available in 1942, the LaGG-3 is a more advanced, faster, generally better armed aircraft. The only problem is that the Bf109 is still a fair bit better in most respects and (fortunately for the VVS) so is the Yak.

When Cujo isn't using me for a chew toy on the US Expert server, I tend to think that the LaGG-3 isn't half bad. I still have not had the chance of simflying with my entire squad, but I think that the LaGG-3 will do just fine, if a squad uses group tactics. I hope that the VVS players aren't looking to do away with their LaGGs, anytime soon. I would like to see multiplayer campaigns where the VVS starts out with the I-16, LaGG-3, and the P-40 and then moves on to the Yak-1 and the La-5, as the campaign progresses. I am not sure  if we will get a P-4 in game, but we are getting the I-16 and that should be one super fun challenging ride.  MJ

Agreed MIKHA. I imagine we'll eventually see the P-40 added to the series seeing as they were at Stalingrad and if we do Kuban or later then the P-40 would be a viable candidate. The devs said we were getting an I-16 sometime and that sounds really interesting to me! I never really enjoyed the I-16 in IL-2 1946 but I think it's an important type to have represented and was the front line VVS fighter for quite a while even long after it was obsolete.

[Requiem]

The LaGG 3 is good to practice defensive maneuvering with if you are solo, but turning the situation around is difficult, if not impossible, against a capable 109 pilot because with his performance he is dictating the engagement.  Just keep your head on a swivel and always assume that if you evade there is another one shortly behind him so check your rear hemisphere again after evading. Of course, fly with a wingman and your results will improve too. The last few times I've been online I've shot down 109s using the IL-2 (and not on the deck), but that is made possible because I was flying with a wingman where we were working co-operatively.

Edited April 6, 2014 by SYN_Requiem

[ShamrockOneFive]

The one thing I will say about the 109 is that it's very sensitive. Any over control and I find its flipping out on me... the rudder especially but also the elevators at times. It's high performance no question... but not as easy as the IL-2 1946 version was. In some respects the LaGG-3 is easier to fly. The Yak-1 brings a smile to my face while the 109 is a killing machine but its a very serious aircraft to fly. Does that make sense?

[Volkoff]

The LaGG 3 is good to practice defensive maneuvering with if you are solo, but turning the situation around is difficult, if not impossible, against a capable 109 pilot because with his performance he is dictating the engagement.  Just keep your head on a swivel and always assume that if you evade there is another one shortly behind him so check your rear hemisphere again after evading. Of course, fly with a wingman and your results will improve too. The last few times I've been online I've shot down 109s using the IL-2 (and not on the deck), but that is made possible because I was flying with a wingman where we were working co-operatively.

 

This is one thing that I have really been working on, getting the defensive maneuvers down.  It is slow going sometimes, but then there are spurts of progress. I am certainly not ready to go hunt BF-109s with an IL2, but I do feel more confident in the LaGG-3, each and every time I sim-fly her. BTW, thank you for all of your great videos, Requiem and best regards to the wife and your brother! 

 

The one thing I will say about the 109 is that it's very sensitive. Any over control and I find its flipping out on me... the rudder especially but also the elevators at times. It's high performance no question... but not as easy as the IL-2 1946 version was. In some respects the LaGG-3 is easier to fly. The Yak-1 brings a smile to my face while the 109 is a killing machine but its a very serious aircraft to fly. Does that make sense?

 

I don't want to comment on the FM attributes of the IL2 BOS Yak-1, until the team says that she is ready for early access evaluation, but I really like the cockpit and the ShKAS machine guns make a very satisfying tearing sound, when fired in isolation from the 20 mm. I just wish we had green tracer rounds for the ShKAS. because the Yak-1 is light, a dogfighter, and prone to bursting into flames, the Yak-1 reminds me of a TIE fighter and TIE fighters fire green lasers.   Since I adore the LaGG-3, I suspect that I will really like the Yak-1, when she is ready for early access evaluation. 

 

 

 

MJ

Edited April 6, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[Georgio]

The best you can hope for against the 109 is to sneak in while they're preoccupied with other LaGG's/IL-2's and tuck in behind where they can't see you. Get in position for a single killer shot then regardless of wether you hit them or not head for the deck at max speed and fly at treetop level until you're sure no one is following you.

Then climb into the sun, get some height then come back again for another go.

[Lextor]

Very interesting topic. Experienced pilots on Russian forum also state that energy advantage is the key factor. To illustrate this, [i.B.]Virus recorded a video lesson, where he is fighting eight 109's at the same time, starting 500m higher. Despite the fact that in the beginning he made a mistake, he won. Of course bots don't play as team, but still I was very impressed.

 

skip to 01:00

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by Lextor

[Finkeren]

With all due respect to the guy who made that video, it really doesn't tell us much about multiplayer. The one area where the AI is clearly inferior to almost all human players is, that it readily lets you gain an initial advantage. A human 109 pilot would've countered his initial climb and shot him out of the sky, while he was on top of his climb and low on kinetic energy, while the 109 would be able to climb nearly vertical right up to the point of stall.

 

 

Not to belittle the guys achievement and the lesson that he's trying to teach. Downing 8 109s in one sortie with the LaGG is pretty badass (a lesson instraighty shooting and corserving ammo more than anything else) I've only ever gotten 5, and not at the same time. It's just not a very realistic scenario for MP.

[Georgio]

Plus icons makes it a lot easier to see what's going on. I know he probably had icons on for video clarity but with icons off in the same scenario you would have your work cut out to achieve the same result.

[Lextor]

Of course this doesn't pretend to some sort of a record. The author himself says that in multiplayer with real pilots everything would be different. It's just a demonstration of how important initial advantage in height is. Markers are enabled for the purpose of the lesson. Oh, and for those newbies like me it's still very impressive! I can't reproduce it even with three bots. Trying to repeat the steps shown in the video, I am failing. After a couple of minutes of vertical maneuvering bots reverse the situation. I think I lose too much energy when climbing,. And with both radiators almost fully open my engine is much hotter then shown in the video. Need to use propeller pitch/rpm more effectively when climbing and diving.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Lextor

[flying_sorcerer]

Thank you all for your insightful responses, they are very appreciated and I'm sure will help many of us who struggle a bit.  There is some hope after all, and being the underdog at least bears less pressure (and it's only a game, thankfully).  If anything, I'm making Bf.109 pilots happy most of time, so I guess this means more players and ultimately, more fun for all of us!

[=AVG=Zombie]

The LAGG is a target drone.... all you 109 guys that have been loving it will be in tears when the yak and the LA5 come into play......  trust me, your in for it....

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 AVG Zombie. The plane does not decide outcome You can give an idiot the best tool in the world and he could not accomplish anything with it. It is all about your ability to read the situation, energy states and SA in general + knowing your plane and opponent's plane inside out. To which we have the possibility. I would not say any 109 driver "is getting it" as no-one is that derp that he/she would not test, learn and use the other planes as well What matters also in games is who can game the game best, as seen in the past. There are always players who meticulously seek and use weaknesses of the game to their advantage thus gaming the game. Nothing new and will happen in BoS as it happened in IL-2 and many other games in any genre.

[WindyCityZeke]

I've flown against some very good Lagg pilots the past few days, guys are really flying it well, using it's strong points.  Also, I've noticed a lot more team work with the Laggs, when they have numbers it's tough out there for the 109 pilots.  I could be wrong, but when I was flying on the Expert server this weekend there was usually more Laggs then 109s.  One time the Laggs had the 109s boxed in at the German Airport.  Great fun! Best moment for me was shooting down one Lagg after he strafed me while I was taking off.  Shot him down right after my landing gear locked into the up position.  Won't mention the numerous times I didn't make it off the runway.

[Mewt]

I can and have defended against a well flown 109 in the Bnz. But if you are lower, slower you're fighting his fight and you have no chance unless he gets impatient and makes a mistake. Lower than the 109 all you can do is make S turns and force the overshoot or not give him a target as he starts his boom, then hit the deck and run. 

 

I'm certain that it was you I was flying against last week. I was in a 109 and we played BnZ cat and mouse for aaaages. You were online at the time - but cant confirm if it was you.

[Jaws2002]

The LAGG is a target drone.... all you 109 guys that have been loving it will be in tears when the yak and the LA5 come into play......  trust me, your in for it....

 

 

Far from it.  It's obviously not as capable as the 109, but has good armament and it's a pleasure to fly. Because of the performance gap the Lagg makes you fly more careful. The excessively sensitive controls of the 109 makes the Lagg easer to handle for most people.

 

Take your time, take the long way around and get to the fight with altitude. It's not exactly helpless in dogfight either, as long as you have some altitude to convert into speed.  I love it. 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Jaws2002

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 LagG-3 can put up a serious fight if you do not waste your energy. And at higher speeds it has better controls than Bf109 so use that for evasion. I did not find the LagG-3 too bad when I had the time to test MP. Maybe soon again when all of my stuff is unpacked in the new home :D

[Capt_Hook]

As others have noted, it's only hopeless defensively. If the 109 is on your six, you better have a wingman on voice comms. I went up against two well-flown Laggs last weekend, and could only manage to wound one while being driven back to base with a smoking engine. Whichever one I'd go after, he'd do a tight left-hand turn while his buddy would high yo-yo, leaving me very little or no time on target before I had to go defensive. It also helped that it was 11-7 in the Russian's favor. I'd like to see the servers set up to possibly enforce at least a slight team imbalance to the Red side until the planeset gets more balance.

 

Don't miss, and once you've taken your shot get out. Hit the deck, get under your forward base AA, and climb out to do it again. You need patience, and teamspeak. :-) I got three kills in a row in the Lagg before screwing up and putting the plane in the ground when getting low and slow after the last one and having to go defensive. It's easy in a 109 to get target fixated, and in the Lagg you need to recognize this when flying high. Look down the fight after you arrive over it, and look for the 109(s) yo-yo'ing up and down in classic BnZ against lower Laggs, and it's a good bet they're not paying a lot of attention to what's above THEM.

 

Yeah, even with all this it's still a mis-match. I do wish 1C would get away from this 'release them in pairs' thing they've got going, or at least consider the Lagg to be the odd duck out. The correct pair with the F4 is the Yak1. Release the G2 with the La5.

 

I've spent my time in the flying coffin, but it's not very much fun. I'm a dedicated Blue pilot since the early days of Aces Expansion Pack, back when you could only fly Blue unless you were intentionally imbalancing the teams as everyone wanted in a Spit. It's hard to have a good time in the 109 given how poor performing the competition is. The sooner the Yak is released to multi the better.

[HeavyCavalrySgt]

I have been practicing 2 v 3 engagements - 2 109s vs 3 LaGGs - from both sides and found it to be an interesting exercise.  It seems like for the most part the winning team doesn't lose any aircraft, and either side can come out on top.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

I'm certain that it was you I was flying against last week. I was in a 109 and we played BnZ cat and mouse for aaaages. You were online at the time - but cant confirm if it was you.

I think it was..we went on for a long time! I do remember a real good and long fight with a 109!  Good flying BTW. I have yet to fly the 109 on line, I've stuck to the red side for now. I like flying underdog.

[WindyCityZeke]

One other thing I'd add is to fly the Lagg on the Expert servers, with the Normal servers you lose a lot of advantages like hiding in clouds and such.  Fog of War is to the Russians advantage.