Axis late war fighters

[ShadowStalker887]

I'll start this off by saying how pleased I am with the latest group of Allied fighters; they are authentic, very powerful and fun to fly. However they have also noticably swung the balance of power in the Allies favour which left me wondering; are there any other axis planes that can keep up with these allied aircraft or are the Kurfurst and Dora there best performing opponents?

[Ribbon]

262

[Talon_]

Axis have the fastest and most heavily armed fighter of them all.

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

Fw TA 152

[CountZero]

1,98K4  , D9 and 262, you dont have thouse in game? axis only now get some oponents that can bearly match their props and no match for jet. Spitfire XIV is still missing from historical BoBp planset for allieds, and even then axis will have best fighter in game. Only thing that changed now is axis dont have so big advantage as before, but they still have advantage.

[danielprates]

In my perception the Dora is better than all the new allied planes!

[sevenless]

5 minutes ago, taffy2jeffmorgan said:

Fw TA 152

 

That would make an excellent collector plane for sure in its H0/H1 config. But before we get to that we need Spitfire XIV and Arado 234.

[RedKestrel]

Part of the problem is that until now, the axis fighters have never really faced an opponent that really outperformed them (with the exception of the La-5FN at some alts). Killing P-47s and early Spit IXs in a D-9 or a K-4 has set people up with an expectation of how their engagements go and what tactics they can use. 

Flying 109G-14s and 190A-8s against Spitfires and P-47s is a pretty good matchup. But few people will fly those planes when K4s and D-9s are available.

Flying K4s and D9s against Spit IX 25lbs, P-51s and Tempests is also a good matchup, as the planes are nearly at parity in terms of performance. But if you are used to zooming away from your opponents with impunity, and have structured your tactics that way, it will seem like the new allied planes are unbeatable.

And my response to that, well...

 

[TheOldCrow]

11 minutes ago, taffy2jeffmorgan said:

Fw TA 152

 

I think this would be a great choice but you run into the problem of this not being very common in the luftwaffe. Only coming onto the scene by January of 45'. Only one surviving 152 is currently being restored and not much is known about the development of the plane. Or, even how many were made. It would definitely be a cool plane to have as a collector but I dont know how able the team is to make an accurate FM and modeling of it.

[CIA_Yankee_]

2 minutes ago, ShadowStalker887 said:

I'll start this off by saying how pleased I am with the latest group of Allied fighters; they are authentic, very powerful and fun to fly. However they have also noticably swung the balance of power in the Allies favour which left me wondering; are there any other axis planes that can keep up with these allied aircraft or are the Kurfurst and Dora there best performing opponents?

 

Have they though, have they really? 

 

I mean, clearly the allies are in a MUCH better position now, and the fighters now give the allies the edge in certain areas depending on the aircraft. The Tempest is faster down low, the P-38 is an awesome attack fighter that will hold its own in a dogfight, the P-51 is fast and is an actual nimble american fighter that can compete with the 190 and 109 to the point pilot skill is the determinant factor.

 

But the balance has actually swung around? No, it really hasn't. What happened is the balance shifted from being clearly in the Axis' favour to something finally approaching parity. In certain areas the allies have an edge (depending on the aircraft), while in others the Axis have an edge (again depending on the aircraft). The G14, K4, A8, and D9s are formidable fighters with significant strengths of their own to counter the allies. And then there's the Me262, which is a huge advantage, which fortunately smart mission designers are restricting in sensible and interesting ways (see Combat Box).

 

What is going on is that now many Axis players need to readjust to the new reality of no longer having a clear edge in the matchup... something which will be a LOT easier to do once the novelty of the new allied planes wear off and there is better factional balance. Once that happens, I think you'll find out the sides are evenly matched, and with the 262 the edge remains with the Axis (it's just a lot more situational now). 

 

That said, to answer your question: outside the Me262 and the Arado the Kurfurst and the Dora are indeed the best performing axis aircraft. And they perform _very_ well, and competitively with the new allied aircraft. But now we're no longer talking about "F4 vs P40". Things are a lot better balanced than they were on the early eastern front.

 

[7.GShAP/Silas]

Guys glued into Axis aircraft have spent the entire lifespan of BoX accustomed to a total, unassailable advantage and now view that as the natural state of affairs.  I'll enjoy every second of the screeching.

[Creep]

3 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

Guys glued into Axis aircraft have spent the entire lifespan of BoX accustomed to a total, unassailable advantage and now view that as the natural state of affairs.  I'll enjoy every second of the screeching.

 

Could not agree more. I saw a guy lose his goddamn mind a night or so ago in CombatBox - "f*#& this" and "F!*@ THAT" and "F)(@! YOU BECAUSE I GOT SHOT WITH .50 CALS FROM A P-51!!!!!111eleven"

 

I was smiling ear to ear.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

You guys act like the russian aircraft never had any advantages and aren't winning 2 out of 3 of every map.

 

Whatever gives you your feels I guess.

[EAF19_Marsh]

I think it is now very balanced. The Allied forces have their ‘45 mods as do the Axis. Apart from maybe a Spitfire XIV, this is a pretty good match.

[Finkeren]

[Creep]

31 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

You guys act like the russian aircraft never had any advantages and aren't winning 2 out of 3 of every map.

 

Whatever gives you your feels I guess.

Having superior fighters does not equate to winning maps as I am sure you know. I have found that most (not all) players that fly Axis exclusively are more interested in flying fighters, whereas more Allied players fly bombers. 

[Diggun]

2 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

more Allied players fly bombers

/as a team to complete objectives.

 

Gonna be even more of a headache for the LW now that we actually have decent bomb loads comparable with what they have available...

Edited October 3, 2019 by [_FLAPS_]Diggun

[CIA_Yankee_]

41 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

You guys act like the russian aircraft never had any advantages and aren't winning 2 out of 3 of every map.

 

Whatever gives you your feels I guess.

 

The only superior russian aircraft at this time is the La-5FN. That one is hands down a winner. For every other fighter matchups, the only edge the russian aircraft ever held is that of turning radius, but they've always been the weaker energy fighters... and in the hands of skilled pilots, energy is what counts.

 

So yes, on the eastern front the advantage has been held by the Luftwaffe, at least when it comes to air superiority (with the rare exception of late scenarios where the FN and the Spit IX are made available). When it comes to strike aircraft things are a lot more balanced, possibly with the russians having the advantage (though we never had anything that could drop anything above 500kg).

 

Remember, energy beats maneuverability, and a competent pilot with the superior energy fighter will know to always maintain the initiative. The only reason why the eastern front isn't dominated by the luftwaffe is because this is a tactical warfare simulator... and to win the 109s need to actually come down and take out some bombers (or bomb targets), thereby giving lesser fighters like the P40s and P39s an opportunity to come in with an energy advantage of their own (but unlike the 109 they really get 1 or 2 tries... if they miss their bounce and squander their initial energy advantage, a good 109/190 pilot will be able to use their better energy capabilities to get away or turn the fight around).

[Cpt_Siddy]

P-38 is perfect for missions, take 2 big bombs on the main booms, drop them and you have clean plane with almost no speed penalty! 

[RedKestrel]

52 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

You guys act like the russian aircraft never had any advantages and aren't winning 2 out of 3 of every map.

 

Whatever gives you your feels I guess.

Because ground pounding wins wars, and on that side the VVS actually has some advantages.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

It seems the only people who think things are unfair fly only 1 side.  With the new view distance and how fast and well armed every plane is having an altitude or speed advantage along with seeing the opponent first (planes with good visibility helps a lot here) are the most important factors imo. Bringing a friend to the fight is even better.

[71st_AH_Rob_XR-R]

1 hour ago, TheOldCrow said:

 

I think this would be a great choice but you run into the problem of this not being very common in the luftwaffe. Only coming onto the scene by January of 45'. Only one surviving 152 is currently being restored and not much is known about the development of the plane. Or, even how many were made. It would definitely be a cool plane to have as a collector but I dont know how able the team is to make an accurate FM and modeling of it.

Most sources estimate that about a dozen reached squadron service and less than one hundred wee built, most being in the factory at the end of the war. 

 

This is not Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and aircraft that never entered widespread service do not need to be represented.  The Tempest V in my mind is a bit of a stretch, there were only a handful of squadrons using them and the Spit XIV was twice as common and the Typhoon Ib would have been a far better choice as it outnumbered the Tempest 5:1 in the theater during the timeframe represented by the map. 

[JonRedcorn]

I can't tell you how pleased it makes me to see Luftwaffe only fliers crying about fairness. For all I care I hope the teams never balance out and they face the team stacking we had to endure for so long. 

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

For servers planning on placing severe restrictions on the number of 262s, I think you have it backwards. There should be very few K4s actually (some 109 units only had two or three K4s and the rest were G14s or G6 with MW50 mod). The 262 was MUCH more prevalent than the K4. There were several days when JG7 got 30+ jets in the air at once. There should be 3x more 262s on an historically appropriate map than K4s. 

Just now, JonRedcorn said:

I can't tell you how pleased it makes me to see Luftwaffe only fliers crying about fairness. For all I care I hope the teams never balance out and they face the team stacking we had to endure for so long. 

 

I also hope the teams stay stacked for allies. I enjoy a struggle and it really proves who the better pilots are. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Yes yes, ballad of the poor oppressed VVS.  ?

[Creep]

26 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

P-38 is perfect for missions, take 2 big bombs on the main booms, drop them and you have clean plane with almost no speed penalty! 

Yeah dude, I was prepared to fly that bird no matter what because I have always been fascinated with Kelly Johnson’s designs. I am thrilled at how well it performs in the sim. It is a dream to fly! 

[56RAF_Roblex]

Reading Clostermanns 'The Big Show' he was of the opinion that towards the end there were a lot of 262s in use and as bombers they did a lot of damage that the tempests were unable to do anything about.  He describes serious shortages of machines and supplies caused by the inability of the Allied ground forces to move anything without it being destroyed by 262s.   

[EAF19_Marsh]

28 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Rob_XR-R said:

Most sources estimate that about a dozen reached squadron service and less than one hundred wee built, most being in the factory at the end of the war. 

 

This is not Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and aircraft that never entered widespread service do not need to be represented.  The Tempest V in my mind is a bit of a stretch, there were only a handful of squadrons using them and the Spit XIV was twice as common and the Typhoon Ib would have been a far better choice as it outnumbered the Tempest 5:1 in the theater during the timeframe represented by the map. 

 

There was a wing of Tempests (4 squadrons, later 5) so it is not really a ‘stretch’. There were certainly more Typhoon, but that is an issue of omission not commission.

 

Let’s not get in to how many 1’98 K-4s actually existed. They have been included, so fair is fair.

[RedKestrel]

24 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

I can't tell you how pleased it makes me to see Luftwaffe only fliers crying about fairness. For all I care I hope the teams never balance out and they face the team stacking we had to endure for so long. 

I think I'll miss being outnumbered all the time, it gave me an excuse for my frequent deaths. Now I'll have to find another excuse.

[-LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor]

This has to be a bait thread. Grab your popcorn lads, this is going to be good 

[MasserME262]

2 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

1,98K4  , D9 and 262, you dont have thouse in game? axis only now get some oponents that can bearly match their props and no match for jet. Spitfire XIV is still missing from historical BoBp planset for allieds, and even then axis will have best fighter in game. Only thing that changed now is axis dont have so big advantage as before, but they still have advantage.

This, and just this, the only comment with some sense.

 

The whole rest of the post is total gibberish.

[sevenless]

6 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Let’s not get in to how many 1’98 K-4s actually existed. They have been included, so fair is fair

 

LOL! Where is my popcorn when I need it ;-)

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

26 minutes ago, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

For servers planning on placing severe restrictions on the number of 262s, I think you have it backwards. There should be very few K4s actually (some 109 units only had two or three K4s and the rest were G14s or G6 with MW50 mod). The 262 was MUCH more prevalent than the K4. There were several days when JG7 got 30+ jets in the air at once. There should be 3x more 262s on an historically appropriate map than K4s. 

 

I also hope the teams stay stacked for allies. I enjoy a struggle and it really proves who the better pilots are. 

I know a lot of people here cry bias on the spitfire and k4 websites and I don’t wanna go down that road but according to the Kurfürst website in 45 1/4 109s were k4s. 

[=KG76=flyus747]

1 hour ago, QB.Creep said:

Having superior fighters does not equate to winning maps as I am sure you know. I have found that most (not all) players that fly Axis exclusively are more interested in flying fighters, whereas more Allied players fly bombers. 

That's because of that thingy they have called the Pe2. Legendary in speed, agility, armor, defenses. The Blues? A huge slow 111 that's got laughable defense and the 88 which is just as weak, but faster. You can see why reds love their bombers.

[BraveSirRobin]

I checked a couple of servers that had Allied aircraft flying last night.  Lots of guys in squads that previously flew nothing but German have apparently changed their profile names.  

[RedKestrel]

2 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I checked a couple of servers that had Allied aircraft flying last night.  Lots of guys in squads that previously flew nothing but German have apparently changed their profile names.  

But it was their committment to immersion and realism that kept them from VVS planes! Honest!

8 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

LOL! Where is my popcorn when I need it ?

I ordered some delivered ASAP, but there wasn't any 150 octane fuel for the delivery plane so its taking forever.

[PatrickAWlson]

On the SP front it should be interesting.  The Axis will have to soldier on with 109 Gs and 190 As for a chunk of 1944 until the 109 Ks and 190 Ds start coming on line.  

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I''m kind of shaking my head at the whole argument that the sim *must* have balance.  As far as I'm aware the planes are represented as accurately as possible.  This means that if it was historically proven to be inadequate - it was modeled as best as possible.  If it was historically proven to be excellent - it was modeled as best as possible.  

Granted, some concessions have probably been made but, they are as minimal as possible.  You should know what you're buying.  If you want balance (or the illusion of it) there are other games out there.  They usually sell premium ammo. 

 

As far as the current plane set goes, I think it reflects this very well.   The Allies in this point were really starting to show that a "fair" fight was all they needed to win. In war, though the idea of a fair fight isn't the goal, overwhelming power is which, once the parity stage was reached and surpassed, the Allies did with high style.

 

The Allies were coming into their own with research, development and available materials.  Time was on their side.  

If you've flown the late model 109s, you can see that - though they are still adequate fighters - the whole series was coming to the end of the line for what could be done with the airframe.  Especially considering that at that point the Germans had much less time and material for R&D.   Maybe if they managed to keep in the lead for the entire war and capture wealth and resources objectives, the planes would have taken on much better improvements but, the had to fit what they had (engine and weapons) onto the available airframe.  It was a very good frame as a light fighter but, that champion prize fighter gained increasingly more weight and less maneuverability as time went on.  

[PatrickAWlson]

13 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I checked a couple of servers that had Allied aircraft flying last night.  Lots of guys in squads that previously flew nothing but German have apparently changed their profile names.  

 

Shouldn't be too surprising.  A lot of Americans and Brits have been waiting for these allied planes.  I'm sure some might have changed for the sake of advantage but I would guess the majority changed because they have been waiting for western allied planes.

 

 

[sevenless]

1 minute ago, PatrickAWlson said:

On the SP front it should be interesting.  The Axis will have to soldier on with 109 Gs and 190 As for a chunk of 1944 until the 109 Ks and 190 Ds start coming on line.  

 

Yep. September and October 1944 will be VERY challenging, as it was in real life.