On the new visibility system

[HansBlitz]

Couldn't help that comment - just tired of oh can't play for this or that reason. We have a pretty good thing and so much complaining. No won't ever be perfect but I'm happy with it -  and I dont think VR isn't the handicap some try to make it out to be. Some want to count rivets and ask for things that get too gamey.

 

One night the guy I was flying with said - if years ago when we were teenagers, if we knew for sure we would have this flightsim now, I couldn't have stood the wait. I had agree with him.

[356thFS_Melonfish]

Basically this thread RN:

 

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Spicysauced said:

Ah, this is where the views were coming from ?

Well, to be honest, the bad spotting was the reason why I almost completely stopped playing the game. I would consider myself a sim veteran, I piled up thousands of hours in all kinds of sims since my childhood, but this game engine behavior is just crap as said in the video and Ive never encountered it THAT BAD in ANY other sim. Next in the difficulty-list regarding spotting would be DCS, but at least there server owners can get around that by allowing custom labels (littel grey dots at certain distances). 

Then, after the big patch I couldnt believe my eyes. Finally I could see anything! I was excited and happy because devs finally figured out a way to adress this problem. Finally the air was full of planes, my SA could develop and I could plan my actions accordingly. 
Now I learned they put it basically back to where it was pre-patch. So Ive had just one ride in my Mustang with a good spotting system. It lasted for an hour or so. 
*insert "aaand its gone" meme*



Devs be like:
Boss : "Hey lets increase spotting to 100km!"
Employee: "But isnt that a bit .. extreme Sir?"
Boss: "I dont care!"
2 days later
Boss: "Hey the 100km spotting is too extreme!"
Employee:" Yea ... riiight. So what should we do?"
Boss: Put it effectively back to where it was before!"
Employee: "....."
Players: "............................" 

I will see you all again in a few years or so when devs decide to overhaul the complete engine. 

 

The thing is most probably if you check what was said before about new vis range improvments what you have in hotfix is how system was intended to work, now in game you can see contacts abow 10km, as realy small objects.

But probably 3.201 version was buged and alowed realy unrealisticly big lod of airplanes and contacts easy visable at short ranges and extra visable at ranges of even 50km.

 

Problem is that buged version was to tempting for most (including me) as it was realy easy to finaly see things without straining and looking at 6 every 5s and it was nice to finaly play relaxed with good SA. 

 

How its now it looks like 9,5km we had before 3.201, but its clear that new vis system works when you test things , but contacts are realy small beyond 9,5km and bearly visable, and same sizes as before on shorter ranges.

 

If system was from start relised as its now, ppl would not even know how fun was to play with bugged 3.201 ranges we got for few days. So its hard to go to what we have now, but system wroks probably as intended now after hotfix.

 

I just hope they try to make it better then its now, as its not easy to see diferance from what we had for long time with that 9,5km ranges.

Edited October 4, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

It worked with no problem in previous games, and in last few days you had 3 full servers, and 3 more with 50+ and planty more with around 20, (most without icons).

It would not be feasible today. Yes there were many players online after the patch, there always are when new content is released. Typically though there are barely enough players to populate a single server. So having that many choices online isn’t workable. 

And something as important as visibility shouldn’t be a game or server setting. 

[kalbuth]

"There are far more players on War Thunder, that's clearly showing the correct direction IL2 should be taking, otherwise it's gonna die.... "

Hyperbole and exageration much.

 

Post-patch was giving unreal capabilities. It shouldn't come back to that level, imho. Did I like that? YEAH, it was so easy!! lol ! But that was honestly too much.

still imho, they should target something along 15-20 km detection distance (which kinda seem like the current setup, as tested above, which should be tested on various screen configurations if one was serious about helping to tackle the issue. Scientific testing showing actual detection ranges....), AND work on distance and frequencies of events that allow for longer detection (sun reflection, movement, color change, etc....) that permit detection without zoom.

 

To me that was the big bonus of post patch system : zoom was not needed for detection, and was not helping. It felt so much more immersive! Zoom was used closer, for identification.

Having a glimpse of a reflection, watching there to see something actually moving 25km away, closing in, getting actual eyeballs on target, then IDing it wth zoom.... That would be great, and that's hopefully IL2 target.....

 

Saying the game is dead, unplayable without post patch detection.... sorry but that's not helping, at all.

Edited October 4, 2019 by kalbuth

[Mac_Messer]

1 hour ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Clearly this photo shows that even at 9km, planes are not a single pixel....

 

I'm flying in VR and I do not and have never had a real issue spotting planes that were rendering, only was awkward how planes would pop out while you were watching them travel away at the previous bubble of 10km.

 

That said, when I first started flying IL2, I never saw anything and spotting was incredibly difficult... it's a skill you learn with time, patience and practice, just like it was/is in real life. Spotting shouldn't be easy, it should require effort and scanning. This is supposed to be a relatively realistic simulator.

 

Why do you think it was the same for everyone?

 

Pre-fix I finally  clearly saw planes at ranges of 2-7km, now again see nothing, because upon exceeding 2km they disappear in plain sight. Not much point in seeing planes from 7-12km if all of them dissapear once you enter engagement range.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Mac_Messer

[SCG_motoadve]

 

7 minutes ago, kalbuth said:

"There are far more players on War Thunder, that's clearly showing the correct direction IL2 should be taking, otherwise it's gonna die.... "

Hyperbole and exageration much.

 

Post-patch was giving unreal capabilities. It shouldn't come back to that level, imho. Did I like that? YEAH, it was so easy!! lol ! But that was honestly too much.

still imho, they should target something along 15-20 km detection distance (which kinda seem like the current setup, as tested above, which should be tested on various screen configurations if one was serious about helping to tackle the issue. Scientific testing showing actual detection ranges....), AND work on distance and frequencies of events that allow for longer detection (sun reflection, movement, color change, etc....) that permit detection without zoom.

 

To me that was the big bonus of post patch system : zoom was not needed for detection, and was not helping. It felt so much more immersive! Zoom was used closer, for identification.

Having a glimpse of a reflection, watching there to see something actually moving 25km away, closing in, getting actual eyeballs on target, then IDing it wth zoom.... That would be great, and that's hopefully IL2 target.....

 

Saying the game is dead, unplayable without post patch detection.... sorry but that's not helping, at all.

 

Spotting has been adjusted, and probably will be refined.

Spotting in real life its not easy ,at even 2 miles with traffic display in the cockpit , planes are hard to find, and usually planes are white color, not camo. And in all honesty I have tried to press a button to zoom when flying real planes (Guess I have been flying to much IL2 LOL)

Yesterday did two missions on Knights and spotting was dont that hard.

 

War Thunder its free and arcade , its good it exists for those people.

[CountZero]

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It would not be feasible today. Yes there were many players online after the patch, there always are when new content is released. Typically though there are barely enough players to populate a single server. So having that many choices online isn’t workable. 

And something as important as visibility shouldn’t be a game or server setting. 

The thing i see you fail to understand is you can have one server with settings i dont like, and just because thats the only server it will not make me go play on it, it will make me go play other games the have servers with otions i like, and this is what youll see happeing now, ppl who didnt like vis ranges from before, will not play on vis ranges from now, just because servers all have them, but if there was server with ability to host bigger vis ranges, they would play on that server, and ppl liking smaller ones would play on that server, = more ppl online, your way = less pll online

[III/JG52_Speedwulf77]

Yes, and finally as mentioned before i agree the direction should be to have lots of people having fun, because that is what gives this game future, a balance between realism and fun gameplay.. 

If you only go to "realistic" it will end because only a few entusiasts will follow and devs wont get paid for their work... 

Besides that i wonder what is "realistic" when a single bomber like a p38 flyes over Kuban map.... 

and so on... 

[Bremspropeller]

23 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

And in all honesty I have tried to press a button to zoom when flying real planes (Guess I have been flying to much IL2 LOL)

 

I'm constantly tempted to click the "outside view" button ?

[=420=Syphen]

17 minutes ago, SPEEDWULF77 said:

Yes, and finally as mentioned before i agree the direction should be to have lots of people having fun, because that is what gives this game future, a balance between realism and fun gameplay.. 

If you only go to "realistic" it will end because only a few entusiasts will follow and devs wont get paid for their work... 

Besides that i wonder what is "realistic" when a single bomber like a p38 flyes over Kuban map.... 

and so on... 

 

I think most people here want the most realistic flight models, damage models, terrain, weather and spotting as possible. When it comes to scenarios - we have to work with what we have. Comparing spotting and visibility to a "bomber" like the P38 flying over Kuban is a totally different discussion.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

On my setup I can still spot contacts from 20 km plus away.  I normally have a display setting of 2560x1440 but for these pictures I dialed it down to 1920x1080.

 

 

Aircraft approx 25 km away

 

 

The aircraft  are over the city

 

I can understand folks getting frustrated but there needs to be a little calm. The devs will work to sort this out.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by 6./ZG26_Custard

[RedKestrel]

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

I'm constantly tempted to click the "outside view" button ?

There is one but its shaped like a door handle.

1 minute ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

On my setup I can still spot contacts from 20 km plus away.  I normally have a display setting of 2560x1440 but for these pictures I dialed it down to 1920x1080.

 

 

Aircraft approx 25 km away

 

 

The aircraft  are over the city

 

I can understand folks getting frustrated but there needs to be a little calm. The devs will work to sort this out.

 

 

That....actually looks pretty reasonable. 

[Sublime]

Look a majority not only asked but damn near demanded a increase in view distance 

The problems will get sorted.

Ive noticed good and bad things with it but like anything else it just needs to be worked on and tweaked.

A good example is when I played on berloga for about 20 min. Initially and especially scanning zoomed in I flew a p38 around literally 10 minutes without seeing anyone except fireballs of planes in fire crashing.  I got frustrated and respawned - and suddenly theres enemies everywhere. in hindsight I think a large part it was my zoomed in view and some was fluke.

All I know is this change was *very* recently introduced and I only got thru 2 pages and 2 comments where people "want it changed back!!!!!!" before I couldnt help myself and wanted to post this.  No disrespect to the posters but I about choked on my drink when I read someone saying "change it back".  The only thing thatd be as crazy a reaction to me is if they redid the engines and timers and put in a entirely new system and on day 3 people were like "nah fuck this my good ol timer never steered wrong!  Is downright UNPREDICTABLE now!"

Keep the faith?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

That....actually looks pretty reasonable. 

Yes, considering that they are aircraft with a 30 odd foot wingspan. 

[Spicysauced]

29 minutes ago, SPEEDWULF77 said:

If you only go to "realistic" it will end because only a few entusiasts will follow and devs wont get paid for their work... 

Exactly. Be careful what you wish for.
In absolute consequence, TOTAL REALISM would include:
- LW being outnumbered 50:1 in late44/45 settings, hardcoded in game/servers
- LW (and earlier USSR planes too) planes having random failures due to bad construction by mostly forced laborers, hardcoded in game aswell
- LW always losing the end of ALL rounds in late settings/mostly winning in early eastern front settings
- fuel shortages (100 liters has to be enough comrade!)
- no abilty to respawn in a new plane after you crashlanded (a new plane takes time to be manufactured), hardcoded in game
- late LW pilots suffering from bad training, hardcoded aswell maybe in form of handling mistakes ("Wanted to adjust prop pitch, oh sorry, adjusted mixture instead, all these levers man ...")
and so on.

Since TOTAL realism isnt possible anyways, devs should go with the next best option: FUN for the players. And to a huge degree, this included a good spotting mechanism, the one we had for 2 days. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Spicysauced

[Fritz_Faber]

Tested the Hotfix and must say …. "great".

It seems to be the most realistic version, zooming in and out is ok.

Thanks to the developers to fix the disturbing 100 km visibility and zoom-bug so fast.

 

Great patch, great flight-sim … bought last days "Flying Circus" too, so now I have the whole stuff !!

 

 

[LColony_Kong]

1 minute ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Yes, considering that they are aircraft with a 30 odd foot wingspan. 

Yes they occasionally can be seen. The problem lies with the frequency to which they blip out of existence. The biggest issues are from 1-15km. I cant tell you how many times I watch a track or a tacview and we discover that entire groups of planes flew past us in places we know we were scanning.

[Spicysauced]

4 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

There is one but its shaped like a door handle.

That....actually looks pretty reasonable. 

Yes because this is spotting against the sky. Try that again on the moscow autumn map with the planes against the ground at the same distance. Have fun. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Just now, Spicysauced said:

Yes because this is spotting against the sky. Try that again on the moscow autumn map with the planes against the ground at the same distance. Have fun

So what you are saying is an aircraft with a 36 foot wingspan that is painted with camouflaged pattern should be easy to spot from 25 km away flying low over forested area. Good luck with that.  

[LLv24_Zami]

I think this is the hard one to solve. Maybe it`s the resolution or something, I don`t know. I should have a decent display and calibrated but after the hotfix I couldn`t find targets any better than before the 3.201 patch. Nothing near like Custards pictures.

 

And I might add that I was completely sober and my eyesight is good ?

Edited October 4, 2019 by LLv24_Zami

[nighthawk2174]

I'd think the best solution would be the previous system but beyond a certain range its just turned off.  With maybe a blending effect inbtween off off and on so stuff doesn't pop in.

[Spicysauced]

1 minute ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

So what you are saying is an aircraft with a 36 foot wingspan that is painted with camouflaged pattern should be easy to spot from 25 km away flying low over forested area. Good luck with that.  

No, they should be at least easily visible at 10km, as a dark dot against every background. Not this mess we have right now. 
Then at  ca 5km, the shape can become more visible and from 1-2 km away a plane should be easily ID'd as friend or foe. 

[SharpeXB]

39 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

The thing i see you fail to understand is you can have one server with settings i dont like, and just because thats the only server it will not make me go play on it, it will make me go play other games the have servers with otions i like, and this is what youll see happeing now, ppl who didnt like vis ranges from before, will not play on vis ranges from now, just because servers all have them, but if there was server with ability to host bigger vis ranges, they would play on that server, and ppl liking smaller ones would play on that server, = more ppl online, your way = less pll online

The majority of the time there is only a single server, Wings of Liberty with any real number of players on it. So whatever WoL runs is what you’ll get. There aren’t the range of choices for people online in this game. So it’s best that those options be limited. Besides the fact that it would be completely distracting to have something as core as visibility change with every game mode or server. Let 1CGS figure out what’s best and then everyone can use that setting. Simple enough. 

And again, core elements of the game shouldn’t be player adjustable. That’s like letting players adjust the flight model if they don’t like it. And having every server run a different FM

Edited October 4, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Nibbio]

Haven't played in a while, so I missed the brief and apparently exhilarating experience of the new spotting with "size amplification".

Went online today for maybe the first time in three months to try out the new planes on Berloga and spotting was just as bad as I remembered. IDing contacts was even worse, since Le Funeste zoom mod is not yet available for the new patch (I play in VR).

 

Churning out new planes and maps is fine and good, but core features of this game still need basic improvements.

Spotting, AI, meaningful SP content are all lacking... and how about a decent VR zoom, for heaven's sake? bah...

[Spicysauced]

2 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

Haven't played in a while, so I missed the brief and apparently exhilarating experience of the new spotting with "size amplification".

Went online today for maybe the first time in three months to try out the new planes on Berloga and spotting was just as bad as I remembered. IDing contacts was even worse, since Le Funeste zoom mod is not yet available for the new patch (I play in VR).

 

Churning out new planes and maps is fine and good, but core features of this game still need basic improvements.

Spotting, AI, meaningful SP content are all lacking... and how about a decent VR zoom, for heaven's sake? bah...

Be careful. You might be accused of lying from the devs like the poor fella in the other thread ... 

[Max_von_Wuthenau]

wel, technically Zooming isn't a realistic feature, unless they were flying with a set of binoculars back in the day. 

[Spicysauced]

Just now, Max_von_Wuthenau said:

wel, technically Zooming isn't a realistic feature, unless they were flying with a set of binoculars back in the day. 

Correct. So lets remove zooming in aswell. Total realism for everyone! /s

[=420=Syphen]

1 minute ago, Max_von_Wuthenau said:

wel, technically Zooming isn't a realistic feature, unless they were flying with a set of binoculars back in the day. 

 

The zooming we have is to accommodate for the FOV we fly at, which is not realistic for normal human eye sight. It is supposed to give a more accurate FOV for normal eyesight as a temporary thing, while still being able to back out the FOV to allow us to see more of the cockpit. 

[[DBS]TH0R]

4 minutes ago, Max_von_Wuthenau said:

wel, technically Zooming isn't a realistic feature, unless they were flying with a set of binoculars back in the day. 

 

Zooming is the way, i.e. workaround for focusing you can do with your eyes in real life. Don't mix it with binoculars since in real life we have much wider view than "normal view" is in-game. When zooming out, you gain peripheral vision but lose the possibility to ID. And this is where zooming in helps - to simulate real life eyesight.

 

Because of all this, IMHO the initial version that was released with the patch might not have been the absolute realistic one - but it was miles ahead what we had prior to this patch.

 

Prior the patch the only way for me to see anything was to turn off Antialiasing completely. I guess I will have to continue having it turned off until the next hotfix...

[Max_von_Wuthenau]

right, however, magnifying objects by several factors in the process is not realistic either

[6./ZG26_Custard]

12 minutes ago, Spicysauced said:

No, they should be at least easily visible at 10km, as a dark dot against every background. Not this mess we have right now. 
Then at  ca 5km, the shape can become more visible and from 1-2 km away a plane should be easily ID'd as friend or foe. 

Fair enough, lets try that over the Moscow map.

 

 

 

 

[Max_von_Wuthenau]

the way i "zoom" is simply leaning forward, closer to the monitor (i am using TrackIR) i believe that is a little more comparable to reality

[Nibbio]

14 minutes ago, Spicysauced said:

Correct. So lets remove zooming in aswell. Total realism for everyone! /s

 

Yeah, and how about a motion simulator chair that kicks you in the nuts whenever you are shot down? Can't get enough of this wonderful realism ?

Edited October 4, 2019 by Nibbio

[HOPPING_PONY]

When people will stop talking "photorealistic contact size" on PC monitor? ?‍♂️

The game should be playable; the spotting should be good enough to use realistic tactics.

When I can't see [edited] i can easily see IRL without getting my eyes hurt - the game is unplayable for me, and most other people.

 

There are simple decision for devs to make: they want people to play their game, or they like fancy talks about "how realistic it looks" by 3.5 remainig fanatics.

Edited October 4, 2019 by SYN_Haashashin
Language

[=LD=4brkfast]

1 hour ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Clearly this photo shows that even at 9km, planes are not a single pixel....

 

I'm flying in VR and I do not and have never had a real issue spotting planes that were rendering, only was awkward how planes would pop out while you were watching them travel away at the previous bubble of 10km.

 

That said, when I first started flying IL2, I never saw anything and spotting was incredibly difficult... it's a skill you learn with time, patience and practice, just like it was/is in real life. Spotting shouldn't be easy, it should require effort and scanning. This is supposed to be a relatively realistic simulator. 

 

Truly, I am glad not everybody has this issue or are willing to tolerate it.

 

A lot of players do have an issue with it. Including me.

 

Your experience does not represent the players that are discussing this issue. Returning players, like me, new players that only just bought BP. These players matter too.

 

It is not good enough as of this latest hot fix and has reverted back to unplayable for me and many other veteran simmers it seems.

 

You know, for a guy who considers himself a prop nose ww2 hotel sierra, I probably dont have 100 hours in this game and I really want to like it and have tried many times, yet I dont play. This should say something, right?

 

Shouldn't that be telling? I had a much better time flying dcs, but as I hate modern jets generally and low numbers it didnt last, but I could spot way easier as it was more consistent by far and I had more fun flying there. Because I could see when I should be able to easily see.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 minute ago, 4brkfast said:

Your experience does not represent the players that are discussing this issue. Returning players, like me, new players that only just bought BP. These players matter too.

Can I ask what your setup is please?

 

[kalbuth]

What??? Better spotting in DCS??? What are you smoking? ??

DCS is the epitome of bad visibility for WWII props

 

Edit: added smileys, post not supposed to be offensive. I find it funny perception are so different

Edited October 4, 2019 by kalbuth

[=LD=4brkfast]

5 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Can I ask what your setup is please?

 

Used to have a g940.

 

X52, saitek pedals, tir4. 4770 i7 not sure of the exacts, probably 3.0x4. 16 gig, older ram but running this game has never been an issue before and still isnt. If i can run dcs on this rig, I can run this game, older stuff but that isnt the issue as mentioned. Stating solid 60fps consistently, even during the recent stutters.

 

nvidia 960

[[DBS]TH0R]

6 minutes ago, 4brkfast said:

Used to have a g940.

 

X52, saitek pedals, tir4. 4770 i7 not sure of the exacts, probably 3.0x4. 16 gig, older ram but running this game has never been an issue before and still isnt. If i can run dcs on this rig, I can run this game, older stuff but that isnt the issue as mentioned. Stating solid 60fps consistently, even during the recent stutters.

 

nvidia 960

 

And the most important part, monitor / resolution or VR? ?