On the new visibility system

[Mowgli]

The alternative visibility is suboptimal and unrealistic. Also the fact that the feature is enabled on expert servers is not great.

[Greeble]

what is the software issue that causes it to be hard to see something from distance? You can clearly see things 10 or 15 thousand feet up in a real plane.

[LLv24_Zami]

1 hour ago, Mowgli said:

The alternative visibility is suboptimal and unrealistic. Also the fact that the feature is enabled on expert servers is not great.

And what display are you using?

[Mowgli]

2560x1440

[Nibbio]

15 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

It's a huge issue in what folks in VR verses those on screen are seeing, it's as if my wing and I were flying in two completely different worlds.  Things we each were seeing were radically different from the same point of view and distances.  At least we were seeing things.

 

This is the key. I would like to know more on these differences. Care to elaborate? Some examples?

Edited October 6, 2019 by Nibbio

[Mowgli]

1 час назад, Locksy сказал:

what is the software issue that causes it to be hard to see something from distance? You can clearly see things 10 or 15 thousand feet up in a real plane.

The game is exactly the opposite now, a fighter can be easily spotted from more than 10km.

[Archie]

22 minutes ago, Mowgli said:

The game is exactly the opposite now, a fighter can be easily spotted from more than 10km.

Good, I'm not some hot shot 21 year old fighter pilot with 20/20 vision, in reality I'm an old man in his fifties playing a (brilliant) game on a computer in his limited spare time.
Harder does not mean more real. 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

6 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

Spotting is much better than it used to be.  

Yes it is,whatever the naysayers claim.

2 hours ago, Mowgli said:

The alternative visibility is suboptimal and unrealistic. Also the fact that the feature is enabled on expert servers is not great.

No system on a PC game will ever be 100% realistic but I agree with you and believe that while alternative visibility is great for very long distance spotting it  actually becomes harder to spot aircraft at a closer distance.

28 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

I just say: Go out and test stuff,

Great advice. I would suggest that if you have the time or the inclination, spend some time testing the 2 options for visibility and tell us what you think about  them?  What I have found is that with alternate visibility checked the aircraft from a long distance look huge but are now much harder to spot at a closer distance (even more so prior to the update).  Without it checked there is no longer a 10 km "bubble" and aircraft with a 30 odd foot wingspan can be spotted fairly easily from around 25 km away and close contacts are easier to spot

 

6 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

I'd go so far as to say the optional "easier spotting" setting should not be in the game as it could lead to confusion, particularly on multiplayer.  
 

Thank you to the devs for putting some work in on this, it is greatly appreciated. And yeah I'll nitpick still but please don't take it as an insult. Spotting was one of the biggest issues in the game and it makes a huge difference seeing it fixed (or at least, alleviated).  

 +1 Seeing as the player base is 90% single player, I'm happy that we now have 2 visibility options. I completely agree about multiplayer servers. Its nothing to do with elitism but I also believe servers with "expert" setting should not have the alternative setting option available, because it is causing confusion and frustration.       

[Mowgli]

30 минут назад, Archie сказал:

Good, I'm not some hot shot 21 year old fighter pilot with 20/20 vision, in reality I'm an old man in his fifties playing a (brilliant) game on a computer in his limited spare time.
Harder does not mean more real. 

Sure sir, I'm not a millennial either. No need to discuss personalities.

[Archie]

6 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Yes it is,whatever the naysayers claim.

No system on a PC game will ever be 100% realistic but I agree with you and believe that while alternative visibility is great for very long distance spotting it  actually becomes harder to spot aircraft at a closer distance.

Great advice. I would suggest that if you have the time or the inclination, spend some time testing the 2 options for visibility and tell us what you think about  them?  What I have found is that with alternate visibility checked the aircraft from a long distance look huge but are now much harder to spot at a closer distance (even more so prior to the update).  Without it checked there is no longer a 10 km "bubble" and aircraft with a 30 odd foot wingspan can be spotted fairly easily from around 25 km away and close contacts are easier to spot

 

 +1 Seeing as the player base is 90% single player, I'm happy that we now have 2 visibility options. I completely agree about multiplayer servers. Its nothing to do with elitism but I also believe servers with "expert" setting should not have the alternative setting option available, because it is causing confusion and frustration.       

I have very little doubt that something like TAW won't run the alternative option. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I have flown them. While the "alternate" has it´s obvious problems with LOD etc. I prefer it. It does not turn you magically to an AWACS. One can still evade and ambush using clouds etc. The hotfix was very close going back to the old. Not as bad, but still a squint-o-rama, at least for me. I would prefer a no-zoom fixed FOV with LOD tuned accordingly over this mess. Sure you would have to turn your head more, but didn´t the saying go "keep head on a swivel"? Maybe one day the devs have time and motivation to address this.

[LLv24_Zami]

I`d just hope that all the fans of ultra `realism` (it`s funny since this is a game), would think of the differences in hardware and how that effects the gameplay. It puts us in different position in one of the key aspects of the simming, spotting. I can`t see how it is so hard to understand. I know HW makes difference in other areas as well, but spotting is so important it can`t be ignored.

 

As I have said before, it was easy to test. I was flying with a squadmate 100 meters apart on the deck in WoL before the latest 3.201c patch. We have different displays, I have more resolution. He called contacts everywhere, I was really trying to look for them but the result was zero. I just couldn`t see anything like he did, no matter what I did. I was really amazed about it.  I have a good eyesight and you can see my display in the sig, I think it`s not so bad. It`s calibrated.

 

So, I don`t think I`m going to fly anywhere without Alternative spotting option.

[Dakpilot]

Not always about hardware does your squadmate use the same game settings? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[LLv24_Zami]

3 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Not always about hardware does your squadmate use the same game settings? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Please, you think I`m stupid?

[Dakpilot]

2 minutes ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Please, you think I`m stupid?

 

No just a bit rude... 

 

Even the most talented and experienced R/L pilots I have flown with sometimes overlook the obvious  good CRM allows communication to bring results 

 

With the large amount of settings that can be changed it is easy to miss something 

 

Carry on

 

Dakpilot 

[LLv24_Zami]

1 minute ago, Dakpilot said:

 

No just a bit rude... 

 

Even the most talented and experienced R/L pilots I have flown with sometimes overlook the obvious  good CRM allows communication to bring results 

 

With the large amount of settings that can be changed it is easy to miss something 

 

Carry on

 

Dakpilot 

I know all that, thanks. Sorry about the response anyways.

 

I`ve stated my experience on the matter, and I`m confident it`s accurate on my case. I think it`s worth thinking of in this matter. Carry on ?

[Guest deleted@83466]

Since a choice must be made, I hope serious servers run the option with the *lesser* visibility.  The initial thing where we were easily seeing things 40 miles away, things that looked like missile launches, and the strange inverted zoom effect was a bit much.

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

 this GAME

 

They're all games.  They're all a piece of entertainment.  Thats it.  Don't be under any illusion.

 

The rest of your post seems to be some sort of attack on your fellow community members........

[6./ZG26_Custard]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

I have very little doubt that something like TAW won't run the alternative option. 

I think you are right.  Saying that, most of the online "expert"  servers seem to be running with alternative switched on. Maybe the easy solution is it have that function disabled if server admins want an "expert" settings server. Again this is nothing to do with elitism but it would avoid confusion and those folks that want the alternative view know to avoid those servers and vice versa.

 

1 hour ago, LLv24_Zami said:

So, I don`t think I`m going to fly anywhere without Alternative spotting option.

I'm the exact opposite. I understand your frustration. This is the problem with everyone having a different setup with different hardware and display resolution. I'm sure it must drive the devs bonkers. 

 

40 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

strange inverted zoom effect was a bit much.

+1

 

1 hour ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

the "alternate" has it´s obvious problems with LOD etc

 Just from a personal viewpoint the problems that it seems to create are much worse than having it switched off. The only benefit I can see is that aircraft look huge from a longer distance away. As you said, hopefully when time allows the devs will take another look. In the meantime, I hope they will consider disabling it for servers running "expert" settings. That would mean that folks have a choice not only in SP but MP also. 

[LLv24_Zami]

27 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I'm the exact opposite. I understand your frustration. This is the problem with everyone having a different setup with different hardware and display resolution. I'm sure it must drive the devs bonkers. 

 

I think it can`t be ever solved fully, just because of the huge diversity of setups. Devs have done a good job giving options and imo most equal to different setups is alternative. But not all have this problem and I understand that.

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, Locksy said:

what is the software issue that causes it to be hard to see something from distance? You can clearly see things 10 or 15 thousand feet up in a real plane.

Resolution. You’d be trying to see things smaller than a pixel. Even 4K is far short of real eyesight acuity. Also unless you’re using the zoom view, the image you’re seeing on a PC screen is much smaller than reality. 

[Greeble]

Thanks, 

I have to run this on 1080p on a 4k monitor atm to see anything and even now it's a struggle. I play CoD on 4k and i don't have as much of an issue.

[RIPSkyKingTasmanaut]

astonished that people don't want to see it as a game that is supposed to be fun (regardless of realism or difficulty settings). What do you want it to be a be, a chore? a job, or something  (like spotting was before the previous 2 patches)

Edited October 6, 2019 by Tasmanaut

[Dakpilot]

16 minutes ago, Tasmanaut said:

astonished that people don't want to see it as a game that is supposed to be fun (regardless of realism or difficulty settings). What do you want it to be a be, a chore? a job, or something  (like spotting was before the previous 2 patches)

 

Well I certainly don't want it to be just a game that is fun, there are many other games with that intention 

 

I find fun in the sim aspect, perhaps I am in the minority, but from the start it seemed like the Dev's and engineers strived for the best accuracy they could. 

 

Now totally unrealistic spotting distances as were reported in first patch are lauded as better because more fun 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

20 hours ago, [LAS]URU-Panzer said:

I did some research On the new visibility system :

 

If is very clear and no obstacles, and the jet plane cruises at 11,000m (37,000feet), from geometry results until the plane drop below horizon, is around 374km or 232 miles

 

Under ideal conditions it is limited by the angular resolution of the eye which is 0.02° and corresponds to 0.3 m at a 1 km distance.

 

If the plane has a wingspan of 15 m * Fw 190 * then the average person should just be able to see it at 45 km

 

If the plane has a wingspan of 30 m *B17* then the average person should just be able to see it at 90 km.

 

For  large contrails  then the average person should just be able to see it at 180 kms.

 

I challenge you to find a white Cessna at co-alt and 30 miles. Even better, find a B-17 amid ground clutter at 60 miles. It almost can't be done. You can lose a 737 head on at 20 after the tower has called it out for you. If it is well above you, sure, you can find it at 80 miles. Co-alt or below you, your figures do not stand up in the real world.

[Dakpilot]

5 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

I challenge you to find a white Cessna at co-alt and 30 miles. Even better, find a B-17 amid ground clutter at 60 miles. It almost can't be done. You can lose a 737 head on at 20 after the tower has called it out for you. If it is well above you, sure, you can find it at 80 miles. Co-alt or below you, your figures do not stand up in the real world.

 

As you know I have posted many times my R/L experiences re spotting, posted military studies and reports, and 90% of time have been told (usually quite rudely) I don't know what I am talking about, actually I don't even know why I am posting this it all seems so pointless  ? ?

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Prior to the introduction of the new visibility option distance spotting had improved no end (no more 10 km bubble) where you could see single engine contacts from around 25 km. You would also not see the strange inverted zoom, LOD anomalies or targets getting smaller as you closed with them.

 

With the introduction of the new visibility option (if enabled) you can see single engine contacts from an extreme range very easily but that seems to come at a cost, inverted zoom, LOD issues and closer contacts that are more difficult to spot prior to the last big update.

 

As I stated previously, I welcome more options and really appreciated the work the developers have put into this project, the last 2 to 3 years have seen amazing improvements.

Folks now have an option in single player to enable or disable the new visibly setting, that's fantastic.

I really don't envy the devs, as its an impossible task to please everyone   

 

As a suggestion, I wonder if it possible to have  servers set up with  "expert"  settings to only allow standard visibility? This is not about elitism or ultra real this is about choice. 

I know from long hours of testing and flying online that IMO the new visibly settings are actually worse (for me and others). The problem is, it is not clearly defined when entering a server if the new setting is enable. At least it would avoid not only confusion and frustration but it would maintain both options for visibly and give folks the choice where to fly. 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

I don’t expect extreme realism myself, it’s a PC game. 

But what I do want is:

- Not to see odd graphics effects like aircraft rendered out of scale at unreasonable (dare I say unrealistic) distances. 

- Or odd effects like the inverse zoom enlargement. 

- I want to be able to play SP and MP with the same settings. 

And yes I do want the challenge of hunting for targets, that much of the thrill in the game. 

I also don’t want to become dependent on a particular feature of this sim that will handicap me in others. 

 

Unfortunately IL-2 just went down the same path DCS tried to do and then had to abandon. Creating a user setting for visibility. It’s going to divide up and confuse the online game. They maybe should have tested this more before letting the genie out of the bottle because they won’t be able to put it away without more howling. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

 

6 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

 

As you know I have posted many times my R/L experiences re spotting, posted military studies and reports, and 90% of time have been told (usually quite rudely) I don't know what I am talking about, actually I don't even know why I am posting this it all seems so pointless  ? ?

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

I flew police helicopters in a congested city for several years. If it wasn't for CRM, I quite literally could be dead. Airliners weren't nearly the problem as GA aircraft and inflexible small field towers.

Edited October 6, 2019 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

As a suggestion, I wonder if it possible to have  servers set up with  "expert"  settings to only allow standard visibility? This is not about elitism or ultra real this is about choice. 

I know from long hours of testing and flying online that IMO the new visibly settings are actually worse (for me and others). The problem is, it is not clearly defined when entering a server if the new setting is enable. At least it would avoid not only confusion and frustration but it would maintain both options for visibly and give folks the choice where to fly. 

This. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

7 hours ago, Mowgli said:

The game is exactly the opposite now, a fighter can be easily spotted from more than 10km.

 

Yeah, that's easy.  On the "realistic" set mission even zoomed I couldn't see ground targets, tanks parked on a road Stalingrad autumn barely a road tree, orbiting directly over them at 7000 feet while he could.  They wouldn't render till much lower, even knowing where they were since he calling them out from the altitudes far higher initially.  On a map with "noob" settings I could spot contacts much easier than he at far distance, but it was opposite for close in as far as acquiring and keeping track, he was having a far easier time, I lose many due to lower resolution blending with the background.  Tends to keep me far out over water or on nice snowy maps when without a monitor spotter.

 

In QMB with the current "realistic" a 109 dot isn't visible until 4.7 Km, and that only because I know where to look initially with aid of an icon, that's a pretty good edge over us VR guys.  Might be a bit better with a reverb and higher res, but he better have his sweet spot directly on it, never good odds on that.  Spotting in a server in VR, you fly fast and wait for one to latch on your back side, cause that's where you will be picking them up most consistently.  Why I haven't bothered online much with the game since Coconuts half chance of VR survival server went down.  Now if I get whacked its solely because I'm rusty as hell.

5 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Since a choice must be made, I hope serious servers run the option with the *lesser* visibility.  The initial thing where we were easily seeing things 40 miles away, things that looked like missile launches, and the strange inverted zoom effect was a bit much.

You may see missile launches, as of yet I've never even spotted one single contrail. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by [CPT]Crunch

[SE.VH_Boemundo]

KOTA is running normal or expert visibility? If expert still geting cons Very far. Sometimes It saturates SA cant stablish priorities since its difficult to estimate range. Sometimes you fly to a contact and never gets there (too far away). Its like im on a big furball.

Edited October 6, 2019 by III./SG77-G_Boelcke

[[CPT]Crunch]

Running normal, and agreed, paying attention to the distant contacts gets you killed.  You can't determine range or aspect, if your focusing all attention on the easy stuff when in reality its way out of reach, the close stuff you can't easily see is going to hammer you, GD jets!

[SCG_motoadve]

Its like flying with icons ON now.

No navigation needed anymore.

Take off and soon enough you see a bunch of planes, and just head into that direction.

No element of surprise.

 

I have not found any servers with expert mode yet, but might get bored quick with the big plane visibility, does not feel right at all.

Makes the MP combat a whole different simple unrealistic game, take off , spot the planes and fly there to fight.

 

Hope to see some expert servers implemented.

 

[RedKestrel]

At this point after playing a bit I think I prefer the expert visibility to the alternative cis. Alt vis still has some issues with planes looking big at a distance and too bright, but better than before. Alt vis is easier to spot contacts but it is occasionally jarring. Still I have to say I have not spotted anything at more than say 25 km distance even with alt vis, at least as far as I can tell.

 

 To me either option is leaps and bounds better than pre patch visibility so a server picking one or the other is not a deal breaker to me. The devs have tried to thread the needle with this one and frankly they should be commended for giving us options rather than just telling us to collectively pound sand as I’m sure they were tempted to do. I’m sure servers will experiment with the different visibility settings over time, especially if they get tweaked in the future.

[SCG_Wulfe]

Once again, can we get one decent server to try expert visibility so that we can vote with our numbers by leaving and going to that server. Right now it’s pretty frustrating that “having options” is not resulting in that online.

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Once again, can we get one decent server to try expert visibility so that we can vote with our numbers by leaving and going to that server. Right now it’s pretty frustrating that “having options” is not resulting in that online.

This is the problem with having two settings. It will effective kill MP by dividing up or just eliminating the choice. There aren’t enough active servers in this game to permit so many options. 

 

The “Expert” visibility on a 4K screen is really superb. Not overdone but possible to see in a realistic way. No oddities with LODs or zoom effects. 

Combined with the new Physiology effect its a whole new game. Very cool! And very difficult. 

[SCG_Wulfe]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

This is the problem with having two settings. It will effective kill MP by dividing up or just eliminating the choice. There aren’t enough active servers in this game to permit so many options. 

 

The “Expert” visibility on a 4K screen is really superb. Not overdone but possible to see in a realistic way. No oddities with LODs or zoom effects. 

Combined with the new Physiology effect its a whole new game. Very cool! And very difficult. 

 

I absolutely and completely agree. From what I have witnessed with it, it is a perfect video game representation of real life visibility. 

[56RAF_Stickz]

2 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

I challenge you to find a white Cessna at co-alt and 30 miles. Even better, find a B-17 amid ground clutter at 60 miles. It almost can't be done. You can lose a 737 head on at 20 after the tower has called it out for you. If it is well above you, sure, you can find it at 80 miles. Co-alt or below you, your figures do not stand up in the real world.

Used to be able to spot couple of dc-3 using Edinburgh airport from 25miles. However it did require locking them up with an old type86 radar (tracking radar/target illuminator for the now obsolete bloodhound anti air missile system) then looking through the receiver collimator boresight scope. We knew where flight path was, but never saw them unaided.

However to spot the cessna sized stuff we had to use image intensifier TV scopes. They had to fly up the centre of the forth to see them.

[LLv24_Zami]

I thought this would be the greatest thing to this sim when I first time saw it. I thought this would make almost everyone happy. But, that`s the way it is ?

 

I`m going to leave this matter now, I`ve said my case and that`s it. There are better things to do than arguing for pixels :D. Let`s hope everyone get`s what they wan`t and there are options to choose from. Thank God for SP, we can choose what ever we wan`t ?