Lagg 3 Damage Model

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

There are 3 major observations in this video

 

1) The incredibly resistant Lagg3 damage model (hits several trees and continues flying without problem -> cannot be netcode because it does suffer damage represented by the missing gear cover)

2) The incapability of German MG to reliably take out control surfaces - which should be a strength - when firing from behind (Multiple hits in the tail plane without any effect on the maneuverability)

3) Total lack of effectiveness of MG against the crew, with multiple hits near the cockpit without killing the pilot (can also be observed especially in Pe2s)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately this is the rule not the exception

[HardymachtParty]

I totally agree !

Edited September 29, 2019 by HardymachtParty

[gimpy117]

On 9/10/2019 at 12:54 PM, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

There are 3 major observations in this video

 

1) The incredibly resistant Lagg3 damage model (hits several trees and continues flying without problem -> cannot be netcode because it does suffer damage represented by the missing gear cover)

2) The incapability of German MG to reliably take out control surfaces - which should be a strength - when firing from behind (Multiple hits in the tail plane without any effect on the maneuverability)

3) Total lack of effectiveness of MG against the crew, with multiple hits near the cockpit without killing the pilot (can also be observed especially in Pe2s)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately this is the rule not the exception

invisible 109's that appear out of nowhere seem to be able to wreck lagg's pretty easily. I don't know what game you're playing

 

besides, it's probably netcode 

Edited October 20, 2019 by gimpy117

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

3 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

invisible 109's that appear out of nowhere seem to be able to wreck lagg's pretty easily

 

This silly comment has nothing to do with the video that has been presented.. Why even bring it up.  Take it to a thread reporting 'invisible planes' if you have problems with this.

 

On 9/11/2019 at 12:54 AM, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

cannot be netcode because it does suffer damage represented by the missing gear cover

 

3 hours ago, gimpy117 said:

besides, it's probably netcode 

 

Did you even watch the video? The tree gets knocked out of the way from the impact (effects from TC). If it was a netcode problem in this instance, the plane would not have taken damage from the impact with the tree.

 

 

 

And on each of those passes, the Lagg3 takes damage - as you can see more holes. Nothing to do with netcode.

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

There are 2 sides of the problem here.

 

1. The MG 151/20 is the worst 20mm in the game.

 

While the HE shell is on par with the russian 20mm, the russian AP round is far superior to the german one which makes the Russian 20mm better. Meanwhile the Hispano 20mm is miles ahead, being nearly twice as good. This is simply wrong. 

 

Even when presented with scientific data and evidence, 1CG does not view it as a problem and won't change anything about it as it stands currently.

 

2. Damage Models of the aircrafts are inconsistent. 

 

Some planes can take an incredible amount of damage before being combat ineffective while others can very easily get disabled with a decent hit. Same with bomber rear gunners. You are very safe in some aircrafts against them (like in the P40) while you are a lot more subject to damage or even death in others (for example a Yak).

 

There won't be any changes to this until the release of BoBP and even after that i don't think that anything will happen i am afraid.

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Operation_Ivy

[ECV56_Necathor]

 

?

Edited October 20, 2019 by ECV56_Necathor

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

38 minutes ago, ECV56_Necathor said:

Lagg3 is a terrible fighter, almost impossible to dogfight against most of the blue planes.

 

This thread has nothing to do with what you think the planes qualities are as a dogfighter.

 

40 minutes ago, ECV56_Necathor said:

If you think that damage model is broken, looks how this 109 can turn at both sides with out one elevator and heavily damage, like a brand new one.

 

 

Again. Wrong thread. Read the title. This is not about the 109, I'm sure there are plenty that you can post your 109 damage model complaints in.

 

[ECV56_Necathor]

43 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

This thread has nothing to do with what you think the planes qualities are as a dogfighter.

 

 

Again. Wrong thread. Read the title. This is not about the 109, I'm sure there are plenty that you can post your 109 damage model complaints in.

 

In that case you have to fly a lot more the Lagg3, because Lagg3 is tough I know but with all that damage you can´t fly normally, you can see on the video that you don´t hit the 109 in front of you and the engine dies really soon

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

12 hours ago, ECV56_Necathor said:

that case you have to fly a lot more the Lagg3, because Lagg3 is tough I know but with all that damage you can´t fly normally, you can see on the video that you don´t hit the 109 in front of you and the engine dies really soon

yes , It cannot fly normally after hitting some trees. Can you see how the „hitting trees“ and the „flying“ part might not go well together irl?

 

and no, I don’t have to fly the lagg more to see how this should not work...

Edited October 21, 2019 by =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Funny how the lagg collides with a tree and takes many many hits from at least 2 109's and just keeps on trucking. Then they argue.?

 

The collision with the tree alone should be the end of any kind of discussion that there is a problem with the physics/DM.

 

Scary thing is.....they walk among us.?

Edited October 21, 2019 by =EXPEND=DendroAspis

[Hanu]

That's the way it is. When creating a mission I usually apply 2-3 times "Command: Minor Damage" to AI LaGG-3 and Yaks to get that Stalinium-coating a little thinner, and they are still tough nut to crack. That is very plane specific; for example if you apply minor damage even once to P-39 it's engine may seize completely, so that's a no-no for lend-and-lease planes. Surely this won't do in competitive MP, but your coops feel more realistic.

[HR_Zunzun]

It is this DM problem consistent? I only see one video of one sortie.

You may be right, but without some statistic consistency the explanation could lie elsewhere. For instance, with the trees alone could just be a matter of very good luck. The lagg enter the tree area with almost 90º bank angle, so could have just skimmed the tree (the one that moves) with the belly. Not saying is not a DM problem but without more consistency (same behaviour in different events with the same plane and not with others) my explanation could be plausible.

For the rest, with the multiple impacts "anomaly", is the same. I have experienced that many times when shooting at other plane models. Other times, they go down in a very short burst.

Edited October 21, 2019 by HR_Zunzun
grammar

[Aero*Bohemio]

Exactly as Zunzun says, an isolated video with stuff like this going on maybe due to different things; a claim like this need consistency in order to be taken seriously. I've never been able, while flying a Lagg3, to hit a tree and survive. Also, regarding taking damage it doesn't apply only to the Lagg-3. We can compile many videos of 109Fs and Gs taking an absurd load of hits from Yaks and Migs -Shvak+ubs- and they can still turn and climb even with wings "gruyere style"  and missing 1 elevator, just like nothing happened. So it happens with all planes depending on the situation, sometimes they get their wings ripped off with one burst, some other times they take a lot of damage and can still  fly. In any case, a proper title would be what was mentioned above "Damage Models of the aircrafts are inconsistent". If you only focus on Lagg-3, is just lobbying and nothing else. 

 

Also:

20 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

1. The MG 151/20 is the worst 20mm in the game.

Your 20mm is just fine. Look here, just to pick one example from few days ago, a guy in an 109F4 shooting 6 planes down per sortie in a server and also up to 8 planes in a FW with default 20mm; doesn´t look like a weak weapon to me. If you can shoot down  8 planes in a server with it, and it's named "the worse 20mm in game" i can't imagine what "the best" can do. ...what's wrong, you wanna be able to shoot down 12 planes per sortie?  (sigh)

8 kills (FW190 default ammo)=> http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4880397/?tour=53
6 kills (109F4 default) By the way 3 OF HIS KILLS ARE UBER STALINIUM INVINSIBLE LAGG-3 => http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4847275/?tour=53
 

Check it, 5 kills is common stuff there, repeated time after time.

What's next guys? Another "Pe2 uber gunner" post? ?

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

35 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

Your 20mm is just fine. Look here, just to pick one example from few days ago, a guy in an 109F4 shooting 6 planes down per sortie in a server and also up to 8 planes in a FW with default 20mm; doesn´t look like a weak weapon to me. If you can shoot down  8 planes in a server with it, and it's named "the worse 20mm in game" i can't imagine what "the best" can do. ...what's wrong, you wanna be able to shoot down 12 planes per sortie?  (sigh)

maybe you should look at Ivy‘s tests instead of a random sortie (sigh), which I’m kind of sure you haven’t judging by your rant ?

Edited October 21, 2019 by =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

21 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

8 kills (FW190 default ammo)=> http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4880397/?tour=53
6 kills (109F4 default) By the way 3 OF HIS KILLS ARE UBER STALINIUM INVINSIBLE LAGG-3 => http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4847275/?tour=53
 

Check it, 5 kills is common stuff there, repeated time after time

 

Again, completely off topic but really poor examples you selected there. 

 

Each of those sorties had 249!! or more hits on enemy planes.  249 hits for 6 kills is actually not a significant return when compared to other armament kill rates. The high number of kills is due to the volume of rounds fired and the high degree of accuracy.

 

Whilst I agree with your statement about showing some consistent damage problems and that not being shown with one video, what I find very amusing is the desire to come in and try deflect/derail it with other rubbish.

 

Ivy posted consistent tests demonstrating 20mm disparity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

By the way 3 OF HIS KILLS ARE UBER STALINIUM INVINSIBLE LAGG-3

 

2 of which were already damaged.

 

Invisible?  C'mon now, that complaint is about 109s from someone trying to defend the Lagg3.

[Aero*Bohemio]

25 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Again, completely off topic but really poor examples you selected there. [...] what I find very amusing is the desire to come in and try deflect/derail it with other rubbish.

Really? I think i was quite on topic, just as much as Ivy. It seems when someone talks in favour of your inconsistent complaint is on topic, but when they disagree they derail and it's totally "rubbish"? Very convenient.

 

25 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Each of those sorties had 249!! or more hits on enemy planes.  249 hits for 6 kills is actually not a significant return when compared to other armament kill rates. The high number of kills is due to the volume of rounds fired and the high degree of accuracy.

First of all, 257 for 8 kills on first example. The examples i selected -the first ones i saw, but i can do a research and post at least 20 or more here- are good enough to show how efficient the LW 20mm can be, and definetly is not "the worse 20mm in game". Look here, another 5 kill sortie by an 109F4 default loadout, 3 of those are the so called stalinium uber highlanders Lagg-3, and were not damaged at all previously

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4878072/?tour=53 A bit more than 30 hits (mg and cannon) average for a kill? I can show you results where you score 80 hits from VVS planes on LW planes and only get 1 kill. So are LW planes made of hitlerinium-steel and VVS 20mm guns ineffective? Probably yes then.

Bottom line is you only see one side of the coin, the title from the OP says it all.
 

You guys are just lobbying. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by ECV56_Chimango

[HR_Zunzun]

35 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Again, completely off topic but really poor examples you selected there. 

 

Each of those sorties had 249!! or more hits on enemy planes.  249 hits for 6 kills is actually not a significant return when compared to other armament kill rates. The high number of kills is due to the volume of rounds fired and the high degree of accuracy.

 

 

Without going into further detail (so not affirming/dennying anything) of those 249 hits for a total of 6 kills, do we know how many of the hits were made by the mg 17? Do we know how many of those 6 kills were actually "over kills"? Can we reliably rule out "net code" influence?

There are many factors that can make something plausible or logic looks like an apparent DM problem.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

15 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

the title from the OP says it all

 

The title "Lagg 3 Damage Model" describes exactly what the thread intended to discuss.

 

16 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

The examples i selected -the first ones i saw, but i can do a research and post at least 20 or more

 

Please save your time. I know as well as any that a 109 can shoot down 5 planes in a sortie. The point of the thread was to discuss particular elements of a planes damage model that seem to be inconsistent. 

 

Post up a thread about issues with the 109 loosing half an elevator and still performing optimistically, and I will also support it. Ive got plenty of hours in the 109 and can discuss what I think are problem points there too.

 

The difference here is that you jumped in and started a tit for tat argument rather than just discussing the evidence.

 

2 minutes ago, HR_Zunzun said:

Without going into further detail (so not affirming/dennying anything) of those 249 hits for a total of 6 kills, do we know how many of the hits were made by the mg 17? Do we know how many of those 6 kills were actually "over kills"? Can we reliably rule out "net code" influence?

 

No we can't and those are valid points. Only the server operators can see the difference between MG151/20 and MG17. As that detail is hidden we can only go on averages.

 

 

[Aero*Bohemio]

9 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

The difference here is that you jumped in and started a tit for tat argument rather than just discussing the evidence.

 

Not at all, my first post first of all i discuss "the evidence", read it, is not too far up. Prior to me jumping in, the thread derailed when Ivy decided to talk about LW 20mm being part of the issue here,  and you guys didn´t ask him to stay on topic there ? I just replied to that. Also, the OP mentions "the lack of effectiveness of MG" bla bla (point 3 check it).

I'm glad we agree this complaint is not consistent.

 

 

1 hour ago, =EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand said:

maybe you should look at Ivy‘s tests instead of a random sortie (sigh), which I’m kind of sure you haven’t judging by your rant ?

 

You edited your post to add all this? ?

"A random sortie"? I can post cases like that by the dozens; or you can check them yourself very easily. Ivy's test is as old as the "russian bias" "stalinium VVS planes" "invinsible Pe2" complaints, so your assumption of me not knowing it is as spot on as this objective whining of yours regarding uber Lagg-3 ? 

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

OK Chimango you win..... your argue till death comes approach carried you through. 

 

But can you please just look at the first video and say, "there is nothing to see here, move along". Just pretend the Lagg3 is a german-made nazi aircraft and that the 109's were actually vvs designs. I'll do the same.

[Aero*Bohemio]

2 minutes ago, =EXPEND=DendroAspis said:

But can you please just look at the first video and say, "there is nothing to see here, move along". 

 

No i can´t, as i already said -and also Zunzun, i'm on the same page than him- in my first post. If you can replicate this several times and have some consistency (the tree part) i will support you on the complaint. On the damage part, rename it to something like "DM of the aircrafts are inconsistent." and i will also support you as well. But the way it's presented is not serious, looks like a whine from a LW fan,  and looks very veeeery biased.

[=EXPEND=Dendro]

Oh *&^% ..... I said Lagg3.... I must have an agenda..... I am just lobbying. I must not be so specific. Is that a lagg3 in the video? S&^#, did I just say Lagg3? Should I rather say, "pixels depicting that of a man-made flying machine". Is that too specific? Am I lobbying too much? Lets rather call it a f-15 EAGLE then noone will know what plane I am referring to then we don't know which plane MIGHT have a problem and nobody knows exactly which plane that MIGHT be. 

 

Schwarz, even better idea.....can you edit the video so that the plane that shall not be mentioned be blurred entirely so that noone has a cooking clue what plane it is. Please, also change the title so as to not be biased if you don't mind. They might call you a LuftWhiner. Better safe than sorry.

 

 

4 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

No i can´t, as i already said -and also Zunzun, i'm on the same page than him- in my first post. If you can replicate this several times and have some consistency (the tree part) i will support you on the complaint. On the damage part, rename it to something like "DM of the aircrafts are inconsistent." and i will also support you as well. But the way it's presented is not serious, looks like a whine from a LW fan,  and looks very veeeery biased.

Ok so you ARE saying that there is nothing to see here, move along, its just a biased, whining LW pilot.

 

Thanks for your input, very insightful indeed.

Edited October 21, 2019 by =EXPEND=DendroAspis

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

2 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

In any case, a proper title would be what was mentioned above "Damage Models of the aircrafts are inconsistent". If you only focus on Lagg-3, is just lobbying and nothing else. 

 

Also:

Your 20mm is just fine. Look here, just to pick one example from few days ago, a guy in an 109F4 shooting 6 planes down per sortie in a server and also up to 8 planes in a FW with default 20mm; doesn´t look like a weak weapon to me.

 

First of all, I agree that the sole focus on the LaGG is a shortcoming. The Damage model should be viewed as a whole as there are inconsistencies across the board.

 

Yet you left me confused. I never said that you can't kill anything with the German 20mm nor did I ever intend to lobby for the common luftwaffe fanboy. That being said, we are playing a combat sim. The DM should be equally important to the FM. So it is not a case about if it works or not. It is about if it works according to historical data and scientific research. I think you would be as upset as I am if a Russian plane would significantly underperform. 

 

28 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

Ivy's test is as old as the "russian bias" "stalinium VVS planes" "invinsible Pe2" complaints, so your assumption of me not knowing it is as spot on as this objective whining

 

I'll take it as a compliment that you consider my test to be as popular as the common luftwaffe fanboy narratives

[Aero*Bohemio]

It is very popular. Please don't take it like i put it in the same page than any "fanboy narrative", if you think i meant that with your test i apologize, it wasn´t my intention. I respect all the work you put into it, it's just that i disagree with the conlcusion. But that's another topic indeed, not like this one ? 

 

 

[MeoW.Scharfi]

I hope the P47D will get the LaGG3 Damage Model sometime, i really hope it. ?

[ECV56_Necathor]

As I said, you have to fly more missions to think that something is wrong with the DM only on the Lagg3. I´m pretty sure that you boys crash in the middle of the air with another plane and sometimes your plane just explode, sometimes your plane survive, the DM model is not a problem only for the Lagg3. Maybe the problem on the video is with the tree not the Lagg3.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Everybody stop posting! The title says it all ?????