Lewis overwing gun on the SE5a

[J2_Bidu]

The topic of the Lewis overwing gun has been an interesting point if discussion. I had never seen an historical video of it being reloaded and pushed back up, so I was happy to find this video (check 4'30'')

 

 

[OrLoK]

And easily pushed up! interesting!

[No.23_Gaylion]

 

This one played right after.

[Cynic_Al]

4 hours ago, OrLoK said:

And easily pushed up! interesting!

 

Just make sure you're not pulling 5g at the time.

[Trooper117]

Most combat reported in those times in personal accounts, say that pilots would endeavour to break away from a furball to change the drum, then re enter the fray.

[Cynic_Al]

12 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

Most combat reported in those times in personal accounts, say that pilots would endeavour to break away from a furball to change the drum, then re enter the fray.

 

Well I'd never have guessed. Often I've wondered whether they had their pay docked for throwing-away the empties.

[J2_Trupobaw]

They were not doing it with bare hands, remember. I suspect gloves able to withstand cold and airstream must be ratehr clumsy. The airstream itself didn't help, either.

[SeaW0lf]

Interesting, thanks for that. In-game the animation is made with the gun at 45 degrees angle, which we can see is not correct. They would pull it down almost vertically to change the drums and to fire it upwards. By the video, it was very cumbersome, especially if they tried to tilt the gun half way. It is possible, but I imagine it was seldom used that way due to its difficulties (keep the plane straight while stretching one arm up and keeping the other on the stick and dealing with recoil and the wind stream). They also did not have enough strength to bring the gun back to firing position at altitude because of the lack of oxygen. And they had to pull the gun back every time they had a misfire or a jam.

 

It would be nice to have those things fixed, especially the angle, thus making it less useful for people to use it tilted while pulling Gs and acrobatics.

[J2_Bidu]

1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

They would pull it down almost vertically to change the drums and to fire it upwards. By the video, it was very cumbersome, especially if they tried to tilt the gun half way. It is possible, but I imagine it was seldom used that way due to its difficulties (keep the plane straight while stretching one arm up and keeping the other on the stick and dealing with recoil and the wind stream). They also did not have enough strength to bring the gun back to firing position at altitude because of the lack of oxygen.

 

It seems easier to operate than I imagined, and to require not too much strength. The ingame gun angle is clearly incorrect. I think one might be able to hold it at a partial angle if flying straight approaching from below, and given enough time (i.e. Ball style), and maybe full vertical in a pinch. Operating it in other ways seems entirely fictional, I agree.

Edited September 10, 2019 by J2_Bidu

[OrLoK]

I agree the sliding of the gun is "easy" but as the vid shows, fitting the drum, might not be.

 

Realism vs gameplay!

[Cynic_Al]

33 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

It seems easier to operate than I imagined, and to require not too much strength. The ingame gun angle is clearly incorrect. I think one might be able to hold it at a partial angle if flying straight approaching from below, and given enough time (i.e. Ball style), and maybe full vertical in a pinch. Operating it in other ways seems entirely fictional, I agree.

 

Don't forget there's an assistive spring mechanism for raising the gun. Also in order for the the gun to reach/leave the vertical position, it is necessary to pivot it downwards to prevent fouling the windscreen. While possible, the animation would be more difficult.

[SeaW0lf]

3 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Don't forget there's an assistive spring mechanism for raising the gun. Also in order for the the gun to reach/leave the vertical position, it is necessary to pivot it downwards to prevent fouling the windscreen. While possible, the animation would be more difficult.

 

The spring mechanism does not seem to be standard or that it would bring the gun all the way up. There are accounts of pilots having to dive to lower altitudes to be able to breathe appropriately and regain strenght to bring the gun back to the horizontal position, even in the case when it got lose and hit them in the head. Even the bungee cord was not standard, and even in the 56th, a top of the food chain squadron, had pilots being banged in the head by a lose Lewis because they did not have a bungee cord. 

 

Anyway, many pilots did not bother to reload the Lewis with another drum such was the hassle and the danger of injury due to accidents and lose drums during its operation down the rail. They used it as a spare gun.

Edited September 10, 2019 by SeaW0lf

[jollyjack]

Stupid Q of course: is there a way to aim these Lewis guns manually?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

7 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

Stupid Q of course: is there a way to aim these Lewis guns manually?

 overwing guns do have to firing position , you always aim manually both guns can be fired independently or together 

Edited May 5, 2022 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[jollyjack]

32 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

 overwing guns do have to firing position , you always aim manually both guns can be fired independently or together 

 

But i would like to aim them manually; f.i. in a Sopwith Dolphin blowing up a balloon.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by jollyjack

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 minute ago, jollyjack said:

 

But i would like to aim them manually; f.i. in a Sopwith Dolphin blowing up a balloon.

they have fixed positions you must aim the plane,  you can't move them like turret guns 

[jollyjack]

BTW nice term for it: Schräge Musik: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schräge_Musik#World_War_I

[No.23_Starling]

Great topic! I’ve often wondered about this in both RoF and FC. Having flown open cockpit planes i can’t imagine doing this during a dogfight.

 

In WoFF it’s much more involved when changing the drum needing a slower crank down of the mount. The immersion would be improved by forcing you to fly level to change a drum

[SeaW0lf]

I might be wrong, but Alex Revell, who wrote 'High In the Empty Blue' and met some pilots of the 56th Squadron, says it is bananas to think they could turnfight with the gun midway on the rail (even with the bungee cord) or pulled all the way back. I also wrote to an institution that has an SE5a replica and I think they also said it would not be possible.

 

You could also risk bending the rail due to the drum drag, which could also rip the wings apart. I read some accounts of the rail bending in reloads due to wind. Pilots had to return to base, some with real damage. Some pilots did not even bother to reload the Lewis, because it was a pain, and the drum could break their wrists due to the wind. I think Cecil Lewis almost passed out in flight because the handle of the Lewis knocked his head hard when he pulled it down once. Depending on the altitude, they had no strength to pull the Lewis down and then push it back up, so they had to dive and reload the Lewis at lower altitudes.

 

So the act of lowering and bringing the Lewis down in turnfights like a drone gun to cut the corners against Dr1s and D7s is farfetched. They had trouble even in level flight, and even McCudden wasn't fond of the practice. I think he did it a couple times and gave up on the idea, even though several pilots of those squadrons used the practice. But just because Albatroses used to bounce them. Once they got the later versions of the SE5a, accounts of tilting the Lewis ceased if I'm not mistaken. McCudden I think said it was way easier to prop hang with the SE5a than to tilt the Lewis. Reading 'High In the Empty Blue', they used it in angle while pulling the plane up in a straight line to catch bouncers on the way up. But even that guy in the Nieuports, famous of tilting his Lewis, especially trimmed his plane to fly straight so that he could be able to use both hands while firing the Lewis at two-seaters above.

 

Anyways, they could fix it and at least bring the Lewis all the way back, to the real loading posiiton on the SE5a, so this way it would be harder to use it in turnfights, since the angle would be too steep. Then people could still use it historically, firing at bombers above or catching bouncers, but not in turnfights.

 

Also, misfires I think would require the Lewis to be brought down to hack the gun and clear the round.

 

*I might have said something wrong, but the idea is that it was not that simple to bring the Lewis down in fights, and I did not find any clear account of its use in turnfights due to g-forces, wind, lack of strength to keep it stable, lack of hands and strength to fire and pilot the plane at the same time, etc. And I'm pretty sure that Alex Revell told me it would not be possible (we exchanged a couple e-mails).

 

Anyways, maybe it was possible? Who knows. I never used it in turnfights though.