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It's time to build a Button Box! A question about switches...

FlyingNutcase

By FlyingNutcase
in Hardware, Software and Controllers

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FlyingNutcase

FlyingNutcase

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Hi there 'tronics nerds (I say enviably),

 

[Patience Warning: Electronics ability close to zero.]

 

I'm sorting out a better controller set up and will put together a button box (planned on the Leo Bodnar BBI-32 but whatever's available at the local electronics shop or from further advice). This is primarily for IL2 but also for Falcon BMS and DCS should that make any difference.

 

I've checked out a number of YouTube tutorials so I have a reasonable idea of what's involved but one thing that is unclear is about which switches are appropriate.

 

  1. Momentary Switch: These seem to go up AND down, so does each direction allow one button assignment?
  2. Fixed On/Off Switch: I'm aware of the issue of switches being out of position if a flight ends abruptly,  and that's all good - I'll make it normal procedure to check before a flight. I'm just wondering if flipping such a switch to say "On" just represents one button click. I'm seemed to pick up somewhere the possibility that it repeats the keystroke.
  3. Rotary Encoder: I understand that a 2-switch (if that's the right terminology) repeats a key. Is there any use for a rotary encoder in IL2? Falcon BMS? DCS?
  4. Any thoughts about best choice of switches/buttons given the use case would be appreciated. Planned usage is for things like lights (nav, cockpit, landing), landing gear, canopy, bombsight view, bomb safe, jettison stores, eject and whatever else seems appropriate.

 

S!

 

P.S. It's not likely relevant but the current controller set up is a CH HOTAS (with the less-featured CombatStick) with Simped pedals (no toe brakes). I've got a Saitek (now Logitech it seems) Yoke and Quadrant which is missing a power cable - hoping to get that sorted today and plan to buy a USB Logitech Throttle Quadrant today (the same as the Saitek quadrant with the Yoke) to complement it or two if I can't get a power cable for the Quadrant.

 

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, FlyingNutcase said:
  1. Momentary Switch: These seem to go up AND down, so does each direction allow one button assignment

 

A momentary (spring back for OFF position) switch ON-OFF only allow assign a button in ON position - using Leo Bodnar controllers, this kind of switch is not much useful, since wok like a press button or press key. They don't give visual feedback if control are ON or OFF because switch lever is always in same position. The only function that seems logic for me use this kind of switch is turn ON engine (press E), if don't want use a conventional press button.

 

Leo Bodnar controllers only recognize the change of status for switch from OFF to ON, not OFF to ON, so allow set only one button. Some Arduino code recognize both and thus allow set two buttons.

 



Fixed On/Off Switch: I'm aware of the issue of switches being out of position if a flight ends abruptly,  and that's all good - I'll make it normal procedure to check before a flight. I'm just wondering if flipping such a switch to say "On" just represents one button click. I'm seemed to pick up somewhere the possibility that it repeats the keystroke.

 

A toggle switch (remain Up or Down) ON-OFF too allow assign one button only in ON position (with Bodnar controllers), but with 3rd part keymapper Joystick Gremlin you can send keypress in ON and in OFF positions, so this switch work correct if assigned for example cockpit lights, up lighs ON, down ligths OFF, but keep in mind that Bo'X" don't have good support for this kind of switch and so no way to avoid switches out of sync if don't be careful "check list" before press FLY, because with exception of Flaps all controls is programmed for "press key/button for ON, press the same key/button for OFF". Flaps allow use one button/key for UP and different button/key for down.


Without keypress software you need move switch for ON for a givem command, e.g. landing gear up the move for OFF and again for ON for landing gear down - very awkward.

 

Joystick Gremlin allow set a ON-OFF-ON switch (2 buttons) for sent keypress in ON (up), in OFF (middle) and in ON (down).

 

Rotary Encoder: I understand that a 2-switch (if that's the right terminology) repeats a key. Is there any use for a rotary encoder in IL2? Falcon BMS? DCS?

 

Yes, encoder is a rotary device that press one button repeatedly when turned clockwise and another button when turned counterclockwise. Bodnar controllers support the type.

In Bo'X' you can use, for example, for trim roll, pitch and yaw, since can't use a analog axis for this, radiators, adjust gunsight of some planes... In DCS/Falcon can use for example, for tune radios.

 

Switches with short lever from eBay tend to be "hard" for manipulate, if available prefer long lever. Quality switches like NKK, Kniter is more "soft".

 

 

 

 

 

 

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LukeFF

LukeFF

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Posted
11 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

The only function that seems logic for me use this kind of switch is turn ON engine (press E), if don't want use a conventional press button.

 

For all of the many toggle commands in the game, momentary switches are quite useful. 

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DD_Crash

DD_Crash

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Think of a rotary encoder as a mouse wheel. You can sometimes have them on volume controls on amplifiers

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Sokol1

Sokol1

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Posted
3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

For all of the many toggle commands in the game, momentary switches are quite useful. 

 

Yes, but the advantage of use a toggle switch (lever or rocker) - latching,  is the visual (and tactile) feedback of command status, up is ON, down is OFF.

 

A momentary toggle switch (lever or rocker) don't give this feedback because remain in the original position after operation, in practice their operation is not different of press w.g. G in keyboard, but anyway they contribute for  "button box" "vintage" aesthetics. :)

 

 

 

 

ST_Pirato

ST_Pirato

Posted
Posted (edited)

I've used latching 2 way toggle switches with a center OFF position. For example you turn the switch up for Gear up and Down for gear down command,it works for ON/OFF commands too.. Basicly you have a neutral position in the center which does nothing. So I don't need to check every switch before I start a flight,I can just flip them in Neutral and then up or down,as needed.

Edited by ST_Pirato
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sniperton

sniperton

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On 9/9/2019 at 12:01 AM, Sokol1 said:

Switches with short lever from eBay tend to be "hard" for manipulate, if available prefer long lever. Quality switches like NKK, Kniter is more "soft".

 

Very important, cheap switches with a short lever (<17 mm) are "hard" and uncomfortable to operate.

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FlyingNutcase

FlyingNutcase

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⚠️ The "Patience Warning" from the first post applies here. Hopefully the following won't damage your mental health. ?

 

Thanks fellas for your replies; a plan is developing for switch types (Momentary Switch where the condition is clear (canopy, bomb sight) or for a one-time event (eject, jettison stores); Fixed On/Off where there is  a reversible state and it's not immediately obvious of that state (bomb bay doors, bomb safety switch, landing gear, landing and nav lights).

 

I'd be better to go the really basic route with a zero-delay USB encoder  (like this on Amazon) to avoid soldering and fancy matrix stuff (which I understand is required for the Leo Bodnar BBI-32).

 

Question Regarding Switch Length

So if the guideline is to get switches with >=17mm switch length, how do we know the length (if buying online). None of the listings I've seen seem to mention it, e.g. here it mentions actuator length and width, which seems to refer to the body (from JayCar electronics shop):

image.png.820e5a01d41633cde06fae73322c43ed.png

 

Questions Regarding Switch Connections

I very much like the basic look of this set up (Reddit link) which is apparently based on a zero-delay USB encoder but leads to a question about connections. All such encoders that I've bumped into have 12 connections. What is the connection count for each switch/button? I assume:

  • Button: 1 connection
  • Momentary switch: 2 connections
  • Fixed On/Off switch: 2 connections
  • Rotary: 2 connections

Is that correct?

 

That would have the setup in the image at 24 connections, so presumably using 2 x zero-delay USB encoders. Correct?

image.png.0a5f77eaaefba5e5ea636b8e08a7038d.png

 

 

Question Regarding Illuminated Switches

Any thoughts about the appropriateness/usefulness of illuminated switches?

 

Do illuminated switches have like an LED the shines through the base or do they have an extra connection to connect to an LED? Example listing below (from AliExpress )

image.png.15659fb4060d1bed034ec6de2ee86e99.png
 

Question Regarding Wire

I don't think any of the YouTube vids I've seen have mentioned the type of wiring, except one that mentioned "16 gauge" I think. What type/spec of wire is suitable?

 

Thanks for your help, <<seriously>>. ?

Sokol1

Sokol1

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, FlyingNutcase said:

I very much like the basic look of this set up (Reddit link) which is apparently based on a zero-delay USB encoder but leads to a question about connections. All such encoders that I've bumped into have 12 connections. What is the connection count for each switch/button? I assume:

  • Button: 1 connection
  • Momentary switch: 2 connections
  • Fixed On/Off switch: 2 connections
  • Rotary: 2 connections

Is that correct?

 

That would have the setup in the image at 24 connections, so presumably using 2 x zero-delay USB encoders. Correct?

image.png.0a5f77eaaefba5e5ea636b8e08a7038d.png

 

  • Button: 1 connection  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Correctly e.g. green, yellow, red press buttons.
  • Momentary switch: 2 connections <<<< No is just one connection in ON position of switch *
  • Fixed On/Off switch: 2 connections<<< No is just one connection in ON position of switch
  • Rotary: 2 connections <<<<<<<<<<<<<< If by "rotary" you mean encoder, yes two connections

A (toggle) switch with 2 connections (buttons in USB controller) need be ON-OFF-ON (momentary or latching) or ON-ON.

 

Don't like this "zero-delay" board, the 6.0MHZ crystal and the black epoxy circle as micro controller show that is a very cheap circuit, like these in cheap generic gamepads.

Don't be impressed with connectors and cables of package, you can't avoid weld wires in switches, buttons and encoders pins, so some welds more or less don't make difference.

Bodnar controllers is more expensive, but well regarded, since ~ 2008.

 

Those "joystick controller" boards don't recognize the OFF position of switches.

 

An exception is Lynx Cub Firmware for Arduino Leonado (require flash), because was made considering game peculiarities.

 

Quote

 


"... Arduino firmware code for our CUB Buttons Boxes will be released soon on our website. For free of course.

This Code is made for Arduino Leonardo, and has some really nice features, one of them being able to choose if normal On-Off Switches should be On-Off or On-On... and likewise the On-Off-On, can also be made On-On-On. But it is only momentary switch inputs, not holding switch functions. (1)

The code is of course set up for the CUB, which means it also has a function of saving 4 switch settings to the unit, that you can load in if you switch to another plane / Game. But everyone can download the code, and adjust it for their needs."

http://lynx.dk/cub-firmware/

 

 

(1) This mean that when you toggle the switch from OFF to ON the controller send a briefly "press" for Windows/games, not remaining ON all time, and when toggle from ON to OFF send another briefly "press", what is very convenient. Think in press G in keyboard for drop gear and press G for raise gear, you don't need hold G.

 

Like in this animation from Desktop Aviator:

 

http://www.desktopaviator.com/Products/Model_2120/2120B.gif

 



All such encoders that I've bumped into have 12 connections. 

 

Those are not encoder, but rotary switch, requiring 12 buttons positons in USB controller.

 

In Bodnar board with encoder support you can wire a rotary switch using only two buttons for work like a encoder, sending a binary code (table of truth)

 Alias even a ON-ON-ON switch can be used in this way.  Samples: 

https://www.737ng.co.uk/simple encoder.pdf

https://www.737ng.co.uk/switch_as_encoder.pdf

 

What the advantage? Can use switch in one direction for command increase and in reverse direction for decrease. But think that Bo'X' commands don't nee this.

Edited by Sokol1
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DD_Crash

DD_Crash

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

 

 

What the advantage? Can use switch in one direction for command increase and in reverse direction for decrease. But think that Bo'X' commands don't nee this.

Thats what I did, I replaced 2 pots with 2 encoders so I could still "turn a knob/wheel" I use mine for trims.

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