no trakir, no vr

[Stu-Dh]

I loved this game, really enjoyed it. That's why I don't fly any other game or even play any other game.  But it is getting to the point where those of us who do not have VR or Trakir cannot compete with even the AI. I understand its always being developed and improved for all our enjoyment. But we are being forced to get better computers for the graphics, a head tracking device or VR, all so we can see our targets better. Where does it stop? Should a person spend so much more money on a game and maybe a gaming system along with all the flight gear, to keep playing?

 

There is already in place a way to turn off markers for those who don't want or need them. There are also multiplayer servers that have normal settings so you can use the markers on switch.  So why limit the markers, and keep making the AI all fly like aces? Realistically most pilots were pretty much rookies before they met their demise.

Unfortunately, that's why they died.  To make every fight the toughest one to date is totally UNREALISTIC!  And its not fun any more when its constantly a major struggle like true life is to fly this game.  Do we have to keep tweeking the AI and markers?  I don't think so, but its not up to me.  Thanks to anyone who reads this an everyone have a good day!

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

If you can´t afford a PS3 camera, some UV leds and wires, how did you afford a PC?

DIY TrackIR is dirt cheap nowadays.

 

If you´re in an economic situation where you can´t afford this, MeoW.Scharfi was one of the best pilots even before she got one.

You could f.e. bind your joystick´s HAT towards head snap positions, use the pan camera mode etc. etc.

Edited September 1, 2019 by So_ein_Feuerball

[Stu-Dh]

Thank you sir.  My hat switch is set to snap and pan. Its not that I cant afford any of this stuff, its more about why should we have to keep on buying and buying.  I have already planed to get new gear all the way around.   And yes Meow Sharfi is a very good pilot along with lots of others!  MY complements to them!  Even with snap view, the AI can out move my move and I loose them. Players don't always move so fast.  

[SharpeXB]

Head tracking is really vital to being able to play a flight sim well. That’s just the reality of this game type. There are do it yourself options like mentioned above. 

[TheOldCrow]

Until I get the funds for head tracking I actually use the mouse to control my view, using my left hand for throttle and my camera is difficult sometimes but you get used to it. It's a more natural feel to move the mouse to keep your eye on an opponent than using the hatswitch in my opinion

[JonRedcorn]

Keep buying and buying? Nobodies making you buy anything, not going to handicap the games development because you don't want to invest in the proper equipment. Technology improves, as do our sims, either keep playing old flight sims or shell out the cash for better gear. The AI is already piss easy to shoot down we want better AI not easier and worse AI.

[E_Davjack]

Thanks for linking my guide.  I enjoyed writing that one, and I hope it has helped some people make cheap TIR setups. 

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

As the old saying goes "Lose sight (of the enemy), lose the fight."  However, when it gets boiled down to a flat screen, it gets quite difficult to re-acquire an enemy when you have to look away from them for a moment.  Even with Track-IR, you still have to 'trick' your brain into tracking the 3D location(s) of the other plane(s) whilst sitting outside-looking-in to a 2D representation. 

Even with the limits of the snap/pan functions it is quite possible to keep track of multiple moving objects and make educated guesses as to whether, the object will change direction while out of view and if so, what the most likely change will be.  

The trouble is that an exceptional imagination of spatial awareness is required.  It's not the same as actual spatial awareness.  For example, let's say the closest doorway to your favorite chair is  behind you and to your left.  If somebody stood in that doorway and was talking to you, you'd get the 'sense' of where they were in relation to you beyond your left shoulder - even without turning to look at them..  Now, if you placed a camera where the chair was and viewed the room on a flat screen you would know that to look at the doorway with the camera, you would have to turn it to the left but, the vantage point of looking at the screen would still be right in front of you.  This can het quite disorientating when the camera is rotating on all available axes.  You are essentially constructing the 3D space and object placement within that space inside your imagination. It is still difficult to do but, with practice, it is possible. 

Track-IR just makes it a good bit easier.   It still can be quite confusing though.  

 

Obviously VR comes a lot closer to representing the 3D space as you have to physically turn to look at objects that are 'behind' you but, I'm sure it's not 100% perfect in representing the real sense of awareness you might have during a real dogfight.  

 

That said, if you don't have any desire to own these things (TrackIR/VR) you're just going to have to practice with the camera tools (snap/pan) that are in the game ang get used to mentally mapping out the placement of moving objects you can't see all the time or only see for very short amounts of time.  You just might find that you are very good at it or have no hope of improving.  That's just the way it is.  If you want to stay without these accessories to aid you, then try to work it out with what's available to use without them.    

[=RS=Stix_09]

I started with an xbox controller and a mouse to view, now I have a much better setup. Its all part of getting into sims. 

You can buy the same head tracker (all hardware premade done) I have with ps3 eye cam on ebay for $50US (if you just want a off shelf no assemby required solution). (my post is pined below video in comments with details and info on setup (article by BlackHellHound1 on setup from this forum is very good ), just need to get software(free online)
works fantastic.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by =RS=Stix_09

[Leon_Portier]

12 hours ago, studh said:

 

I do understand how flying without Headtracking is, because I started with pan view on a hat has well.

My next step might be useful to you, its a paperclip headtracker, you can make one right now with 30 min of time and some duckt tape.

The paperclip is not as good as IR headtracking but its good enough to be superior to pan view, the only requirement is any webcam (I used a "LifeCam HD 3000").

To set it up you only need to get Opentrack (its free - open source) and print out this picure.

https://github.com/opentrack/opentrack/blob/unstable/contrib/aruco/test3.png

 

Connect webcam to PC start Opentrack tracking with Aruco input and hold the printed out paper infront of it and it starts tracking it. How you attach it to your head is your call, mine looked like this. I used it for around a year until I built myself a HackIR.

Further explanations can be found here: https://github.com/opentrack/opentrack/wiki/Aruco-tracker

Goodspeed and nice flying!

 

Edit: In terms of the enemys in single player, I´m no expert but I find them to be very predictable and easy to defeat, no matter the difficulty setting. Their aim pretty good on ace setting tho.

Edited September 1, 2019 by [N.O.G.F]Leon_Portier

[Stu-Dh]

I appreciate all the help for getting cheaper gear fellows, but I could go purchase all new top of the line gear{PC, VR, HOTAS and pedals} and pay cash for it. Lack of money on my part is not a problem. My point is the AI could potentially get to a point where no one can defeat it, where does it stop? Do you want AI to be so good? The AI should be the easiest to destroy. Playing other players should be the toughest. I Just want to be careful and not go to far with the AI development.

Maybe I opened a can of worms here. That's not what I intended.

Time to Fly now. Thank all of you for your input and suggestions. Maybe we'll meet in the sky!

[TheOldCrow]

1 hour ago, studh said:

AI could potentially get to a point where no one can defeat it, where does it stop?

 

I think that's why we have a selection of A.I. experience. I do understand your point but I'm hoping the A.I. does get that scary good that it can challenge the best. Even if I got shot down everytime that would teach me to do different, just like getting shot down in mp. 

[CUJO_1970]

I have TrackIR 5 but don't use it and I will annihilate AI in my sleep, I only use them for target practice.

Just set in my ways I guess.

 

I fly online on normal server without VR, no TrackIR and a 7 year old $35.00 Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. Usually finish every month in top 3 of 400-500 players on that server...and AI in this sim is no match for the average human online.

[SharpeXB]

16 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

I fly online on normal server 

This is something to brag about? 

Icons are for noobs...

How about flying Expert ?

You’ll be needing that TrackIR

Edited September 5, 2019 by SharpeXB

[RedKestrel]

I really do sympathize with your resistance to buying more and more stuff as its sometimes hard to justify the expense for a game, but ultimately its the nature of the flight sim that the peripherals can really improve the experience. If you have the money to do it, then there's no reason not to make the investment and get more out of your time playing. 

The game already provides difficulty options to reduce the necessity of too much extra stuff - you can set icons, have an auto-rudder helper, snap views, engine assists, tech tips, etc... You don't NEED head tracking or rudder pedals or VR to play, you can play just fine with a Logitech 3D joystick with a twist grip. I used to fly against AI in Il-2 1946 all the time without head tracking - and the AI in that game is harder to beat than in this one. More difficult but not impossible. Hell, I think a couple of the truly stellar online aces use pan view with a hat switch, or have in the past.

40 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is something to brag about? 

Icons are for noobs...

How about flying Expert ?

You’ll be needing that TrackIR

Head tracking is definitely more necessary in icons-off servers. It usually allows me to spot my enemies juuuuust long enough in advance so that I experience existential dread before being riddled with bullets and shrapnel. That kind of thing really enhances the immersion.

I'm probably in the top 3 of a lot of servers in terms of grisly demises. If you think a kestrel would have better spotting abilities you would be sadly mistaken.

[CUJO_1970]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This is something to brag about? 

Icons are for noobs...

How about flying Expert ?

You’ll be needing that TrackIR

 

‘I’m not bragging, just stating fact that you don’t need fancy equipment.

 

Oh, and let me be clear about something though - you can roll in to normal server and we can see who the noob is anytime you like. Plenty of "experts" come in there to die.

[OrLoK]

I've got MFG Pedals, Warthog HOTAS, VR and track IR.

 

Im a terrible pilot. Im awful in MP as well as SP.

 

All the best kit in the world wont make one an ace.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

‘I’m not bragging, just stating fact that you don’t need fancy equipment.

 

Oh, and let me be clear about something though - you can roll in to normal server and we can see who the noob is anytime you like. Plenty of "experts" come in there to die.

It’s ridiculous to talk about not needing a TrackIR when you’re playing in the kiddie pool with a sky full of colored markers. Icons are the biggest crutch you can have in this game. 

Icons-On action is all a big farce because every player has unlimited situational awareness. There’s no realism whatsoever. How would you ever get shot down with icons turned on? Nothing unexpected could ever happen. 

Hey if arcade game air shooter is what you like have fun. But hardly anyone in IL-2 plays Normal mode. All the populated servers in this game run Expert so if you actually want to be able to play online you’ll need to learn to play that level. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by SharpeXB

[CUJO_1970]

Not sure what your little problem is or what point you are trying to make? The OP specifically mentioned normal setting and icons in his post, to which I replied to show you don't need anything too fancy to compete, either online or offline with those settings.

 

Now for some reason you are calling icon enabled servers a "kiddie pool" a "crutch" and a "farce"?

 

Sure thing champ!

[JonRedcorn]

13 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

 

‘I’m not bragging, just stating fact that you don’t need fancy equipment.

 

Oh, and let me be clear about something though - you can roll in to normal server and we can see who the noob is anytime you like. Plenty of "experts" come in there to die.

Can't really compare the two, playing in normal servers you get good at flying with icons and constantly knowing where everyone is at, that's like saying sim pilots that play war thunder with a mouse will get owned by the pros who fly like that, it means nothing. You still play arcade mode and that's fine. But let's not pretend like you guys are better pilots, you just play a "game". I mean you said it yourself, you are more worried about your stats at the end of the month then getting any type of realism or immersion out of the sim. Again thats fine! Many a normal expert and mouse expert have come on actual expert servers and get owned and then make threads saying they can't see anything.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

Many a normal expert and mouse expert have come on actual expert servers and get owned and then make threads saying they can't see anything.

This

It’s fine that people want to play arcade mode. But the over reliance on icons (this genre is the only game type that puts them on your opponents) leads to these silly threads about how it’s too hard to see anything in the Expert game. Like the game is broken or something. It’s not. You are just too used to this crutch and can’t deal without it. Again that’s fine. Just stop complaining and learn how to play without them. You’ll be better off because nearly all the MP servers in this game run without icons. 

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

This

It’s fine that people want to play arcade mode. But the over reliance on icons (this genre is the only game type that puts them on your opponents) leads to these silly threads about how it’s too hard to see anything in the Expert game. Like the game is broken or something. It’s not. You are just too used to this crutch and can’t deal without it. Again that’s fine. Just stop complaining and learn how to play without them. You’ll be better off because nearly all the MP servers in this game run without icons. 

Agreed. I flew with icons on in Il-2 1946 for a long time and when I came to this game I decided to do without. At least with icons on in 1946 you couldn't see through your own plane and there were no little arrows pointing where the enemy planes were. I still had, and continue to have, a hard time finding and tracking contacts, but its much more engaging gameplay when spotting matters and there's always a tension that someone could be creeping up behind you without you noticing. And with the upcoming changes to spotting mechanics at long distances, you're missing out on a huge addition to the sim if you use icons. if people don't have vision or cognitive issues preventing them they should at least give flying without icons a long shot to get a taste of what its like.
 

[RIPSkyKingTasmanaut]

I fly both normal and expert, depending how I feel. Icons do not provide unlimited SA. Yes, everyone can see what is around them, but you still have to judge energy states. If anything, it narrows your margin for error, any mistake is likely to result in your death. Plane control in close quarters becomes the crucial factor for defensive flying. CUJO wasn't complaining about anything regarding difficulty of spotting,  only stating that it is possible to compete without tracking. I can attest to this, though I have tracking now. It can be tiring using hat switches, but it is possible.

 

Honestly, if you think icon servers are playing in the kiddie pool, come get some from CUJO. Because spotting is taken out of the equation, every fight is a maneuvering fight, and the 'kiddies' there are experts at it. Spotting, tracking and stealth are different skills and probably more important in expert mode, but whenever I want some action and dogfight practice, I know where to find it. 

[SharpeXB]

Gameplay with icons might be good kiddie pew!! pew! Video gamey shooting fun but it has nothing realistic about it. Don’t try to convince yourself otherwise. It’s a complete crutch for situational awareness which is the key skill in real air combat. 

2 hours ago, Tasmanaut said:

Because spotting is taken out of the equation, every fight is a maneuvering fight, 

Hahaha what nonsense. ?

You mean air combat with THE most important requisite removed from it. And with unlimited awareness none of the maneuvers being used are in a realistic context. 

 

You should really go educate yourself about real air combat in WWII. This is a fine realistic sim so you can actually put into practice what you read about. You’ll get your moneys worth from this game for sure that way and it’s much more interesting than video gamey silliness. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by SharpeXB

[RIPSkyKingTasmanaut]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Gameplay with icons might be good kiddie pew!! pew! Video gamey shooting fun but it has nothing realistic about it. Don’t try to convince yourself otherwise. It’s a complete crutch for situational awareness which is the key skill in real air combat. 

Hahaha what nonsense. ?

You mean air combat with THE most important requisite removed from it. And with unlimited awareness none of the maneuvers being used are in a realistic context. 

 

You should really go educate yourself about real air combat in WWII. This is a fine realistic sim so you can actually put into practice what you read about. You’ll get your moneys worth from this game for sure that way and it’s much more interesting than video gamey silliness. 

Did you bother to read what I said? I fly both. I am playing devils advocate and standing up for someone that I can vouch for as a very good pilot. You have no knowledge of my skill set or flight sim experience. I won't tolerate this kind of elitism and arrogance. See you in the skies.

[simfan2015]

@studh,

 

Yes I do understand, quite well in fact.

Been into simming for as long as PCs exist.

I still cherish the times of Microprose and Jane's where things (as far as I remember) were easier and just as much fun.

But that was the Single Player era.

But about spending ... in those (1990-ties) days computers were just as expensive as they were now.

Even then I had to pay something like 3000 euros for a high end PC !

We now, indeed,  almost *need* even more like indeed ... VR.

 

But at least realism has increased and we no longer can almost count those on screen polygons.

 

As I have no VR, or even high end PC (but that is going to change), I have to be prepared to virtually(!) die a lot.

 

regards, stefaan

 

 

[SharpeXB]

10 hours ago, Tasmanaut said:

You have no knowledge of my skill set or flight sim experience.

From what you posted it doesn’t sound as if you have much... sorry. Trying to justify the arcade game style as having anything realistic at all to it is rather ridiculous. I’m sure it requires skill as a game like any other video game but it’s not a realistic depiction. 

[Eisenfaustus]

In expert it's still a video game that needs it's specific skill set. It's not actual WWII airial combat. To prevail in a manoeuvre fight you'd need exceptional physical fitness. 

That was a vital part of surviving - second only to eye sight. 

 

And spotting in a game is never realistic. Il2 does a decent job but it still is a game. I trained gunners and vehicle commanders in simulators and on the gunnery range and spotting on a screen just is different. Way different - in certain points easier in other things harder but never really realistic. Especially the lack of periferal view is hard to overcome. 

 

I enjoy flying in vr in full real because it's as immersive as it gets today. But I don't fool myself into thinking it's like actually riding 1500 HP into a life or death fight. I find this arrogance believing you are in some way better because you play a different game or the same game differently irritating. It's a game that every one should play in such a fashion that he gets as much enjoyment out of it as possible. 

 

@OP

are you suggesting that il2 is now harder to play without headtracking than before? Why? I started with joystick only and liked it. Got an ed-tracker and enjoyed it even more. Got a dell visor and found spotting much harder but immersion so great that I stopped playing other flightsims. But I never felt that it was necessary to enjoy the game. And vr would make me less competitive in an mp environment compared to the ed tracker I used before...

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Eisenfaustus said:

I trained gunners and vehicle commanders in simulators and on the gunnery range and spotting on a screen just is different.

Do the military’s simulators put icons over the targets? I doubt they do. Icons are fine for an arcade gamey game but they can’t be justified in terms of realism just because PC screens aren’t lifelike. And flight sims are the only game genre I’m aware of that puts them on your opponents, which is a joke. 

1 hour ago, Eisenfaustus said:

I find this arrogance believing you are in some way better because you play a different game or the same game differently irritating.

It’s not arrogant to state that Normal is an easier game mode to play than Expert. That just a fact. And sorry but “Experts come here (to the easier game mode) to die” is just hilarious. Please stop trash talking from the easy mode. ???

Edited September 8, 2019 by SharpeXB

[JonRedcorn]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Do the military’s simulators put icons over the targets? I doubt they do. Icons are fine for an arcade gamey game but they can’t be justified in terms of realism just because PC screens aren’t lifelike. And flight sims are the only game genre I’m aware of that puts them on your opponents, which is a joke. 

It’s not arrogant to state that Normal is an easier game mode to play than Expert. That just a fact. And sorry but “Experts come here (to the easier game mode) to die” is just hilarious. Please stop trash talking from the easy mode. ???

Don't need to be a dick and belittle everyone because they play the game a certain way...

[SharpeXB]

58 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

Don't need to be a dick and belittle everyone because they play the game a certain way...

Sorry but you gotta laugh at the stuff people say sometimes

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Don't engage him, it is folly and he borders on trolling regarding anything other than "his" way.

[Stu-Dh]

Ok fellas, I wasn't trying to start an argument. Only asking a question. Even though it appears it didn't come out right.  For my inability to properly convey my thought's I am sincerely sorry.