Valve Index vs HP Reverb

[kissklas]

18 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I wouldn't presume that savings in production costs are passed along to consumers. Since production economies are not necessarily adopted in my interest I would prefer to have more user comfort features than fewer.

Oculus stated that it was one of the reasons for going with SW IPD on the Rift S, and you can't deny, the price is quite a bit lower than its HW IPD competitors. Voodooimax from the HP stated that weight and lens functionality were the key reasons, but also here you can see that they have created a price competitive product with a SW IPD even though the screens are quite costly. It's a fine balance of hitting the right price range and delivering features. And HW IPD requires more than a mere slide of the lenses. These things do add to the price. So I do still think that choice of IPD mechanics affect the price for the end user. As does method of tracking for that matter. Having the market to yourself, and setting any price you want is not a luxury you have in the VR market any longer.

[Dagwoodyt]

2 hours ago, kissklas said:

Oculus stated that it was one of the reasons for going with SW IPD on the Rift S, and you can't deny, the price is quite a bit lower than its HW IPD competitors. Voodooimax from the HP stated that weight and lens functionality were the key reasons, but also here you can see that they have created a price competitive product with a SW IPD even though the screens are quite costly. It's a fine balance of hitting the right price range and delivering features. And HW IPD requires more than a mere slide of the lenses. These things do add to the price. So I do still think that choice of IPD mechanics affect the price for the end user. As does method of tracking for that matter. Having the market to yourself, and setting any price you want is not a luxury you have in the VR market any longer.

Manufacturers' rationalizations aside, you pay a certain entry cost but you may  pay a greater cost when using equipment that was designed more to protect profit margin than to provide best customer experience. That is a cost that will persist long after the purchase price is forgotten.

[chiliwili69]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:23 AM, Gordon200 said:

I can't detect a "sweet spot". The entire screen is sharp edge to edge.

My IPD is 66 according to my optician and the Reverb adjustment in Mixed Reality settings seems to agree.

 

How you can see sharp images on the edges?  I see they are blurry and with some chromatic aberration. You are the first person I heard that don´t see the sweet spot.

 

I have still not touched the IPD settings (my IPD is also 66), maybe adjusting IPD I will improve that.I will try.

[Wulfen]

2 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

How you can see sharp images on the edges?  I see they are blurry and with some chromatic aberration. You are the first person I heard that don´t see the sweet spot.

 

I have still not touched the IPD settings (my IPD is also 66), maybe adjusting IPD I will improve that.I will try.

Chili, how would you compare the Index fov\visuals\optics\sweet spot to the Reverb. If you had to keep one hmd, which would you pick.

 

Also can you say that the Reverb you received from https://www.derekenwinkel.nl is from the new batch from HP. MRTV has a video saying HP will have the new fixed batch in Europe from mid September. I just waiting to complete my order with the above store and thinking I may be best to wait to make sure I get a revised unit.

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Wulfen

[-332FG-Gordon200]

The new (fixed) version has a clip that secures the cable connection as mentioned at 3:30 in the video.

[Wulfen]

35 minutes ago, Gordon200 said:

The new (fixed) version has a clip that secures the cable connection as mentioned at 3:30 in the video.

Yeah, but was that just an interim fix, and were there other component issues as mentioned. I've dropped the store an email to check what batch they have, and what's their return policy just in case. Just before I finally complete the order as they are looking for the VAT payment on the order, which was not initially charged.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Wulfen

[-332FG-Gordon200]

13 minutes ago, Wulfen said:

Yeah, but was that just an interim fix

The ones with the cable connection clip has all the fixes. The connector was refashioned and the clip is extra insurance it doesn't separate.

Internal components were also upgraded to meet lower tolerances than original version.

[Wulfen]

Thanks, just MRTV got me thinking with his mid September date for the new batch. I'll likely follow through with the order when they get back to me with their return policy etc.

[Dagwoodyt]

5 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

How you can see sharp images on the edges?  I see they are blurry and with some chromatic aberration. You are the first person I heard that don´t see the sweet spot.

 

I have still not touched the IPD settings (my IPD is also 66), maybe adjusting IPD I will improve that.I will try.

Will very much appreciate your followup on this issue. As for MRTV,  info he gives is hearsay from a manuf. Rep. MRTV apparently does not have an updated hmd to test. The Rep. is still pitching this hmd as an "enterprise" quality product. There also seems tacit admission that there was rush to get to market before another company might get comparable screens into the supply chain.

[chiliwili69]

On 8/27/2019 at 11:23 AM, Gordon200 said:

Yes, it is in Windows Settings>Mixed Reality>Headset Display

 

Thanks, I finally discover where is it. I didn´t find it before because in Windows in Spanish they have translated "VR headset" as just "headset" that is "auriculares" in spanish that means just headphones.

 

This is where it is the settings (Ver mas  / Configuración):

 

and then you select "Visualización de los auriculares" (which is a wrong translation).

 

There are five things you can touch:

 

Ghaphics: I don´t know if this  a kind of ASW. I really don´t know. I put at very high.

Resolution: it can be the native resolution or in auto. I think that auto shrink the resolution to have better performance.

IPD: the limits for IPD are from  59 to 67. I set my to 66.

EXperiencie options: you can put to 60Hz, or 90Hz or auto. I set mine to 90Hz.

change input mode: this is just how you want to activate desktop mode or headset mode entry

 

[chiliwili69]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:23 AM, Gordon200 said:

I can't detect a "sweet spot". The entire screen is sharp edge to edge.

 

HEY, HEY, The entire screen IS NOT sharp from edge to edge!!

I have changed my IPD from 63 (default) to 66 and the is no change in sweet spot or chromatic aberration in the edges.

The center of the vision is pure reality! yes it is very very nice, but as you move outside of a, let´s say 30 degrees cone, the image start to be a bit less clear, and more less clear when you look to the edges. It is like a gradual degradation in clarity/sharpness as you move from centre to edges. I have tried to put my headset is all possible positions (left/right, up/down, push/pull, IPDs) and no matter what you do. The sweet spot is clearly visible.

I really don´t understand how you can not see it. Please, are there more people out there that don´t see the sweet spot (means blur in edges)???

 

have you tried other headsets? All headsets suffer from this, in my experience being teh VivePro the worst and the Index the best (means biggest sweet spot, that is biggest sharp area)

23 hours ago, Wulfen said:

Chili, how would you compare the Index fov\visuals\optics\sweet spot to the Reverb. If you had to keep one hmd, which would you pick.

 

This is the one million question I will try to obtain in the next weeks. It is not an easy choice really. Both are great but none is perfect.

Ideally I would want the resolution and Rift style of the Reverb with the sweet spot and FOV of the Index. Let me log more flying hours and do more tests.

21 hours ago, Gordon200 said:

The new (fixed) version has a clip that secures the cable connection as mentioned at 3:30 in the video.

 

The Reverb that I have should be the corrected one since it comes with the connector clip mentioned (but not shown) in the video. I don´t know why he said that it is available in europe in mid sept, since the online shop from netherlands (https://www.derekenwinkel.nl ) sent me my unit on 23rd August.

 

Here I put some pictures of the mentioned clip to secure the connection, it is easy to put it and remove it. And it keeps the connection well fixed. I have not experience any disconnection so far. The plastic clip has impressed the words "HOST" and "HMD" to put it in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

 

BTW, I have just realized now that the unit that I have acquired is the Reberv Pro edition.

 

The difference between Pro and non-Pro is that the Pro incorporate an extra 0.6 meter cable for a backpack and also the cushion is washable. It is made of a kind of synthetic rubber, it can be removed (fixed with velcro and rubber screws). It is comfortable but not transpirable, so it isolates your face a lot and it can produce occasional fog in the climate is wet and your skin is hot.

 

Here some pictures of the webpage of the shop and also the plate number of my Reverb:

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by chiliwili69

[Wulfen]

Just had an email reply from de rekenwinkle stating my order is on the way and that they are only selling the new revised unit.

Thanks Chilly for the info.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Wulfen

[PO_Baldrick]

For me there is a very significant change from the centre to the edge. The Index has very little degradation from centre to edge but then is not as clear in the centre.

 

The sweetspot as a percentage is probably higher than I think in the Reverb but as it has a fairly low FOV you soon get to the edge when looking around with your eyes. I am now so accustomed to the clear centre that is is just natural to move my head rather than look inside the headset. You need to move more anyway with a small FOV. I have always found looking around with my head one of the most impressive aspect of VR so I have no issue doing this.

 

In fact the more I have actually used the Reverb in gameplay compared to the Index (rather than simple back to back comparison on features) the more I have come around to preferring it for all seated sims.

[-332FG-Gordon200]

3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

I really don´t understand how you can not see it.

What I see in the Reverb is no different me looking around this room. The clarity of sight does diminish the further away from center line but the same is true of my eyes. No one has 20/20 vision out of the corner of one's eye. The sweet spot is broad and merges at the edge seamlessly.

 

[Wulfen]

With the very high resolution of the reverb within that sweet spot, is the resolution in the area of the drop off still relatively good due to that initial very hi-res starting point.

1 hour ago, PO_Baldrick said:

I am now so accustomed to the clear centre that is is just natural to move my head rather than look inside the headset. You need to move more anyway with a small FOV. I have always found looking around with my head one of the most impressive aspect of VR so I have no issue doing this.

 

 

Coming from the CV1, I have always used head movement to look around due to the resolution/fov limitations. It's second nature at this stage.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Wulfen

[PO_Baldrick]

48 minutes ago, Gordon200 said:

What I see in the Reverb is no different me looking around this room. The clarity of sight does diminish the further away from center line but the same is true of my eyes. No one has 20/20 vision out of the corner of one's eye. The sweet spot is broad and merges at the edge seamlessly.

 

 

The difference is you can look around in the headset by moving your eyes rather than looking out of the corner of them. When driving a real car I don't move my head to see the instruments, I simply look down. Using a VR headset is a bit different but still feels very natural, just you find yourself moving your head more rather than your eyes. Some see this as an issue but I don't.

[Dagwoodyt]

The way I understand the significance of "sweet spot" is that a small sweet spot forces the wearer to constantly refocus the eyes in situations such as the landing pattern where you are needing to line up with the runway while simultaneously flying the gauge numbers. If the sweet spot is too small this process quickly results in eyestrain. A narrow sweet spot also makes positioning the hmd fiddly because you are always trying to find an elusive perfect positioning. That is why I still use the original Odyssey and have shelved the O+. Given my own experience I am concerned that the issue of sweet spot is even mentioned in regard to the Reverb.

[PO_Baldrick]

2 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

The way I understand the significance of "sweet spot" is that a small sweet spot forces the wearer to constantly refocus the eyes in situations such as the landing pattern where you are needing to line up with the runway while simultaneously flying the gauge numbers. If the sweet spot is too small this process quickly results in eyestrain. A narrow sweet spot also makes positioning the hmd fiddly because you are always trying to find an elusive perfect positioning. That is why I still use the original Odyssey and have shelved the O+. Given my own experience I am concerned that the issue of sweet spot is even mentioned in regard to the Reverb.

 

I only notice it when specifically testing for its existence, e.g. looking at a gauge and then moving my head and keeping my eye on the gauge. Maybe that is because I am used to it.

 

All I can say is the Reverb is the most comfortable headset I have owned in terms of eye strain.

[Dagwoodyt]

41 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

 

I only notice it when specifically testing for its existence, e.g. looking at a gauge and then moving my head and keeping my eye on the gauge. Maybe that is because I am used to it.

 

All I can say is the Reverb is the most comfortable headset I have owned in terms of eye strain.

Thanks

[apollon01]

To me the sweet spot size is not much different to the O+ (so not an issue for me).

 

I really like the Reverb. I expected some improvement in terms of visual clarity to my O+ but the reality left me speechless for a moment (or two).

[Dagwoodyt]

44 minutes ago, apollon01 said:

To me the sweet spot size is not much different to the O+ (so not an issue for me).

 

I really like the Reverb. I expected some improvement in terms of visual clarity to my O+ but the reality left me speechless for a moment (or two).

Well, my experience with the O+ could be due in part to the fact that they changed the minimum IPD setting on the O+ to 63mm. I can use ~60mm on the original O. It might help to know the IPDs  of Reverb users.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Dagwoodyt

[PO_Baldrick]

IPD of 65 here

[chiliwili69]

8 hours ago, PO_Baldrick said:

The sweetspot as a percentage is probably higher than I think in the Reverb

 

I don´t know what you mean exactly here.

 

In the Reverb, from all the total area of the FOV, the crystal clear area is about let say 50%.

In the Index, from all the total area of the FOV (which is bigger than in the REverb), the crystal clear area is about 90%.

It is difficult to measure the the sweet spot, but in any case 90% of Index FOV is more than 50% of Reverb FOV. But the clarity of this 50% of the REverb is better than the clarity of the Index.

[dburne]

4 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I don´t know what you mean exactly here.

 

In the Reverb, from all the total area of the FOV, the crystal clear area is about let say 50%.

In the Index, from all the total area of the FOV (which is bigger than in the REverb), the crystal clear area is about 90%.

 

 

Wow that is amazing especially considering the larger FOV.

[chiliwili69]

7 hours ago, Wulfen said:

is the resolution in the area of the drop off still relatively good due to that initial very hi-res starting point.

 

it is not that you lose resolution, the effect is more that it is more blurry as you move your eyes to the edges. This doesn´t happen in real life.

[PO_Baldrick]

11 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I don´t know what you mean exactly here.

 

In the Reverb, from all the total area of the FOV, the crystal clear area is about let say 50%.

In the Index, from all the total area of the FOV (which is bigger than in the REverb), the crystal clear area is about 90%.

It is difficult to measure the the sweet spot, but in any case 90% of Index FOV is more than 50% of Reverb FOV. But the clarity of this 50% of the REverb is better than the clarity of the Index.

When I compare the Index & Reverb I notice the image starts to blur as I look away from the centre. Of course with the Reverb I reach the edge more quickly as the FOV is smaller, That is what I meant by as a percentage the Reverb is probably greater than I think because I realise I am looking nearer the edge. A bit cryptic I admit

 

The Index just seems to have less degradation from centre to edge, I am not sure it is a bigger sweetspot just less of a difference.

[chiliwili69]

8 hours ago, Gordon200 said:

What I see in the Reverb is no different me looking around this room. The clarity of sight does diminish the further away from center line but the same is true of my eyes. No one has 20/20 vision out of the corner of one's eye. The sweet spot is broad and merges at the edge seamlessly.

 

In real life the sweet spot is almost all your FOV.  To demonstrate that just close your left eye and put your face close to your monitor (30 cm for a 27" monitor for example).

Then the monitor is covering almost 80% of your FOV, and with your right eye (keeping the head fixed but moving the eye) you can see crystal clear all the monitor area. 

 

When you do that with the Reverb you will see that there is an increasing bluriness as you move from center to edges.

 

In a heavy combat in IL-2 you normally put all you attention in the gunshight  which is where the image is sooo clear, so this normally is not too distracting, but when you try to check your six or keep an eye in other targets not at the center then it is a bit annoying. Nothing dramatic but ideally it should not be there (like in Index).

Edited August 30, 2019 by chiliwili69

[PO_Baldrick]

2 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

In a heavy combat in IL-2 you normally put all you attention in the gunshight  which is where the image is sooo clear, so this normally is not too distracting, but when you try to check your six or keep an eye in other targets not at the center then it is a bit annoying. Nothing dramatic but ideally it should be there (like in Index).

I am definitely moving my head if looking at the gunsight then checking my six

 

I get what you are saying though, it is where VR differs from our real eyesight. Still love it though!

[chiliwili69]

36 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

I am definitely moving my head if looking at the gunsight then checking my six

 

yes,  of course, but unless you have an owl neck (in a fixed seat) you need to move your head and also your eyes. So you will see your six blurred.

[PO_Baldrick]

9 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

yes,  of course, but unless you have an owl neck (in a fixed seat) you need to move your head and also your eyes. So you will see your six blurred.

I am still at the noob stage where checking my six is usually because someone is shooting at me so I am in too much of a panic mode to notice what I am moving!

[dburne]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

yes,  of course, but unless you have an owl neck (in a fixed seat) you need to move your head and also your eyes. So you will see your six blurred.

 

Anyone that can move their head and eyes and actually see their six has way more flexibility than I do.

And I even use a swivel chair.

Thank goodness the Spit has a mirror...

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by dburne

[whitav8]

Is there any chance that those of you that have both an Index and a Reverb could try to make a through-the-lens snapshot from the exact same starting point position on the ground (I know that would be hard to do). It would be interesting to see the FOV and the clarity - but I imagine that the camera might not capture the whole FOV. For the cost of these headsets, it would be great if the suppliers would do that - but I suppose they might lose some sales and would try to spin it anyway. Oh well.

 

Thanks for trying to educate us though. Also on the issue of moving our heads versus gazing from the center, those of us with glasses might be a little more inclined to move our heads since that is what we do with our glasses on (they act somewhat as "blinders" - especially bi/trifocals )

[Alonzo]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:25 PM, chiliwili69 said:

It is difficult to measure the the sweet spot, but in any case 90% of Index FOV is more than 50% of Reverb FOV. But the clarity of this 50% of the REverb is better than the clarity of the Index.

 

This is super interesting. Index optics combined with a higher resolution panel, plus even simple fixed foveated rendering, might be a pretty awesome experience. I'm excited about the future of VR!

[ICDP]

I think Chili's point is an important one.  Imagine the clarity on a Reverb is never worse than the clarity on Index but it has the benefit of having much higher clarity where it matters. 

[chiliwili69]

18 hours ago, whitav8 said:

Is there any chance that those of you that have both an Index and a Reverb could try to make a through-the-lens snapshot from the exact same starting point position on the ground

 

I just created a parallel post, just for quicker reference:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/53603-valve-index-vs-hp-reverb-through-the-lens-pictures/

 

Measuring FOV or sweetspot is difficult, I have to try a tool called TestHMD with the REverb (with the Index I can not do it since it required controllers)

[Maschinenreiter]

Maybe I can bring some light to the sweet spot discussion.

 

Today I received my Reverb and found it to be an absolute catastrophy.

I could easily see three of the sides of the displays, forming some kind of a bluish-purple corona around the picture.

Also there was no sweet spot for both eyes at all. By shifting the headset left to right I could either get a sharp picture for the left or for the right eye.

That is with a completely normal IPD of 66mm in my case.

 

I m also wearing glasses which didnt make contact to the fresnel-lenses, so I exclude the possibility, that for some reasons of individual anatomy my eyes might be closer to the display than would be normal. Also in case of the CV1 and the Pimax5k+ i never noticed the sides of the imager/display.

 

Conclusion: Even with the second attempt the reverb seems to suffer from some serious quality issues with the ones I ecountered being the extreme ones. However I conclude, that whereever extreme deviations like the ones I have seen occure, there are even more smaller ones, which might by taken as a "normal" variation by a user, who cant compare a fair sample of the devices. So one lucky user may well see an almost completely sharp picture, whilst others suffer from quite small sweet spots.

 

That is the reason, why I not only immediately initiated the return of the headset but why I wont go for a replacement, as long as I have to expect a mediocre replacement with questionable assembly specs.

 

However I believe, that if the components and assembly are good, then the headset may be well worth it. But as of now there still seems to be too much of a lottery involved.

 

[Dagwoodyt]

1 hour ago, Maschinenreiter said:

Maybe I can bring some light to the sweet spot discussion.

 

Today I received my Reverb and found it to be an absolute catastrophy.

I could easily see three of the sides of the displays, forming some kind of a bluish-purple corona around the picture.

Also there was no sweet spot for both eyes at all. By shifting the headset left to right I could either get a sharp picture for the left or for the right eye.

That is with a completely normal IPD of 66mm in my case.

 

I m also wearing glasses which didnt make contact to the fresnel-lenses, so I exclude the possibility, that for some reasons of individual anatomy my eyes might be closer to the display than would be normal. Also in case of the CV1 and the Pimax5k+ i never noticed the sides of the imager/display.

 

Conclusion: Even with the second attempt the reverb seems to suffer from some serious quality issues with the ones I ecountered being the extreme ones. However I conclude, that whereever extreme deviations like the ones I have seen occure, there are even more smaller ones, which might by taken as a "normal" variation by a user, who cant compare a fair sample of the devices. So one lucky user may well see an almost completely sharp picture, whilst others suffer from quite small sweet spots.

 

That is the reason, why I not only immediately initiated the return of the headset but why I wont go for a replacement, as long as I have to expect a mediocre replacement with questionable assembly specs.

 

However I believe, that if the components and assembly are good, then the headset may be well worth it. But as of now there still seems to be too much of a lottery involved.

 

I question whether there has been any real update of the Reverb hardware. Maybe all that has been changed is addition of the cable clip. If HP has contracted out manufacture of the hmd HP may have little control over who the manufacturer subcontracts for components. If so that could create a lottery as to how well an individual Reverb example will function. It seems like a relatively high stakes gamble at this point. I think I will probably go with an Index whenever they go on sale.

Thanks for your input.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dagwoodyt

[Bullets]

2 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I question whether there has been any real update of the Reverb hardware. Maybe all that has been changed is addition of the cable clip. If HP has contracted out manufacture of the hmd HP may have little control over who the manufacturer subcontracts for components. If so that could create a lottery as to how well an individual Reverb example will function. It seems like a relatively high stakes gamble at this point. I think I will probably go with an Index whenever they go on sale.

Thanks for your input.

 

There were hardware changes to the actual connector too. There wasn't any hardware changes anywhere else I don't think. All other defects were caused my poor manufacture quality control during production which has since been sorted.  

[Dagwoodyt]

35 minutes ago, Bullets said:

 

There were hardware changes to the actual connector too. There wasn't any hardware changes anywhere else I don't think. All other defects were caused my poor manufacture quality control during production which has since been sorted.  

Thanks for the correction. Nonetheless I've no idea what has been "sorted" so i'll continue to monitor Reverb user reports. I think the Index with one 2.0 base station would equal the price of the Reverb kit, so not much difference there. The larger fov and provision of hardware IPD adjustment would seem to favor the Index.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dagwoodyt

[chiliwili69]

4 hours ago, Maschinenreiter said:

So one lucky user may well see an almost completely sharp picture, whilst others suffer from quite small sweet spots

 

I don´t think the sweet spot perception is due to failure in the manufacturing process. The device is pretty simple (fix IPD, fix distance from eyes, simple lenses).

I have read other Reverb users who were also noticing the sweet spot problem, so it is a real thing in all Reverb devices. Period.

 

The problem is that you can forget that if you normally move your head (instead your eyes) sinc the clarity in the center area is very good and with no chromatic aberration.

So for most of games it will be OK.