Historical accuracy for Dogfight Servers

[LUZITANO]

On 9/15/2019 at 9:29 AM, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

Nice. We need historical accuracy but we need more dynamic server. Playing always the maps with same targets, not conected with each other, while your actions does not affect the next is boring. I would like to see each dynamic map with 4 hours, mores targets, advancing tanks divisions (playable and AI) deep on enemy territory (a la Heinz Guderian and ghost division) advancing and flanking targets/airfields, pincer movements etcs, reporting enemy movements etc. Server are not acting the true spirit of blitzkrieg, things so much static. Fucking Hitler fucked himself more when discharged Heinz Guderian and Rommel, true.

I was thinking about that too, especially about mission models

An example ... Why don't we have an exclusive mission for bomber escort? Why do missions need to include level bombers, why not do a CAS-only mission without level bombers? 

 

It will be interesting to see how this will happen...

In IL-2-1946 10 years ago it was possible to play different types of online missions, for example ... An exclusive escort mission where the Luftwaffe had to defend cities from the B- 17 and P-51
 

[BubiHUN]

1 hour ago, LUZITANO said:

Why don't we have an exclusive mission for bomber escort?

Having taking off/landing/spawning in the air planes draws a lot of server performance. imagine what could happen when a server like KOTA is full, and about 8 bombers flying in a formation, their gunners are shooting etc. 
If devs could do something about that, we will add some bomber formations to both sides.

Edited September 16, 2019 by -[HRAF]BubiHUN

[SCG_Faerber]

35 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

If devs could do something about that, we will add some bomber formations to both sides.

2 hours ago, LUZITANO said:

Why don't we have an exclusive mission for bomber escort?

I believe he is asking for missions with a clear concise/specialized objective and not a "sandbox" experience as we have now with multiple objectives on the map. For example:
Mission #1: Axis have 4 factories on the map and has no access to any bombers, only fighters while the Allies who in turn have no defendable objective on the map has to focus on escorting or joining AI bombers who just fly straight and drop bombs (so no need for ai to take off/land), so the game now has a clear objective: Axis=defend the factories and the Allies=destroy the objectives. 
I actually think missions such as these would be a diferential to whatever server implements them first and develop on the concept. It might be hard to do but it would be really cool. KotA already is trying to inovate with the new naval engagement mission which I find really fun, and Combat Box who already have AI with both fighters and bomber formations. Imo the best servers at the time is both KOTA and CB both have a really respectful administration and a really fun environment to fly. 

As for historical accuracy I believe ppl should focus on them once Bodenplatte has released, until then its only a matter of balance and being able to fly the new birds that we already have; however once bdpt releases, Eastern front scenarios should, imo, be limited to BoM, BoS and BoK which already is pretty good!

 

[LUZITANO]

1 hour ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

If devs could do something about that, we will add some bomber formations to both sides.

Yes... We need to "have the equipment" first. Probally with the B-25D
I didn't mention one thing, this new IL-2 has tanks and it greatly expands the dynamics of multplayer and is a new one that can be explored over time
The tanks are already being exploited by some servers, I think they are fantastic

 

55 minutes ago, SCG_Faerber said:

I believe he is asking for missions with a clear concise/specialized objective 

Yes! A different way for victory to be achieved, different rules for different missions

I don't exactly know how to do it or how it would work, but it's a good subject to think about...

 

[BubiHUN]

34 minutes ago, LUZITANO said:

Yes... We need to "have the equipment" first. Probally with the B-25D
I didn't mention one thing, this new IL-2 has tanks and it greatly expands the dynamics of multplayer and is a new one that can be explored over time
The tanks are already being exploited by some servers, I think they are fantastic

 

Yes! A different way for victory to be achieved, different rules for different missions

I don't exactly know how to do it or how it would work, but it's a good subject to think about...

 

Yes, we were thinking about this since months, and wI have some ideas. But still, AI planes draw a lot of performance.

[Alonzo]

Combat Box has a mission with AI bombers that can be part of a mission objective, and a single flight of 3 AI bombers works ok even with 64 players on the server, so it can be done if you are careful. It needs to have some integration with mission objectives, though, otherwise it's 'just' AI flying around.

 

Honestly part of the problem here is the limited multiplayer numbers. WoL + KOTA + Combat Box + TAW = maximum ~315 concurrent players. War Thunder is looking at its 25k concurrent players and giggling at us. I really wish we had many more players for IL2, then people would choose a server based on what they liked the most, rather than what is most populated. I think a lot about how to improve Combat Box and ultimately I don't believe there is a problem with maps, or missions, or plane sets. It's all about population. I'm happy to work on the other things but when we do an organized event we can max the server out, people like to come fly with us. Maps, missions and plane sets are not perfect, buy they are good enough, and I believe the energy is better spent on community.

 

I sometimes wish Combat Box was more populated, but I am also very happy when we get 500 pilots a month on the server. That's down from a peak of 2,000 pilots per month, but it's still a great number of fellow WW2 sim enthusiasts to reach.

 

[RedKestrel]

39 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

Combat Box has a mission with AI bombers that can be part of a mission objective, and a single flight of 3 AI bombers works ok even with 64 players on the server, so it can be done if you are careful. It needs to have some integration with mission objectives, though, otherwise it's 'just' AI flying around.

 

Honestly part of the problem here is the limited multiplayer numbers. WoL + KOTA + Combat Box + TAW = maximum ~315 concurrent players. War Thunder is looking at its 25k concurrent players and giggling at us. I really wish we had many more players for IL2, then people would choose a server based on what they liked the most, rather than what is most populated. I think a lot about how to improve Combat Box and ultimately I don't believe there is a problem with maps, or missions, or plane sets. It's all about population. I'm happy to work on the other things but when we do an organized event we can max the server out, people like to come fly with us. Maps, missions and plane sets are not perfect, buy they are good enough, and I believe the energy is better spent on community.

 

I sometimes wish Combat Box was more populated, but I am also very happy when we get 500 pilots a month on the server. That's down from a peak of 2,000 pilots per month, but it's still a great number of fellow WW2 sim enthusiasts to reach.

 

Well said. Player numbers are always the elephant in the room. You guys do a great job over at Combat Box and with TAW wrapping up I’ll be spending more time there soon! Gotta get my Jug fix.

 

[LUZITANO]

12 hours ago, Alonzo said:

Honestly part of the problem here is the limited multiplayer numbers. WoL + KOTA + Combat Box + TAW = maximum ~315 concurrent players

It's the main thing, I totally agree

I think the History and balance factor is important, at least that's what attracts me

[SCG_Wulfe]

Alonzo, I'm sure you are well aware that SCG enjoys flying on your server. Really for us, a lot of our flying is aimed at being immersive and involving team-based tactics within our squadron. Almost all of us avoid WOL at all costs because the atmosphere is generally mostly chaos and unrealistic. Whether that's due to GPS, map design or simply the players it tends to attract is uncertain. For our SCG Dead is Dead events, WOL is explicitly forbidden for the events as the atmosphere is not right.  For us, that leaves two servers that we can really utilize: KOTA and Combat Box. TAW can be great sometimes when it's running... but often the balance issues that occur there make it almost not worth the effort to assemble on it for our organized fly-outs. 

That said, I really do think you could do well on combat box to create more early/mid war eastern front missions using mostly historical plane sets. Even though I enjoy your server quite a lot, this would make it more enjoyable for me personally to have that variety. I know the late war thing was supposed to be your niche. But I think when Boddenplatte releases, there will be many servers running specific Boddenplatte missions and it would be nice to see Combat Box become the go to server. I agree that more player numbers in general would help round things out, but, I would love to see someone supplant what WOL is doing with a more immersive setup.  

 

Anyway, just providing my own personal feedback. I wish you success either way. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by SCG_Wulfe

[LUZITANO]

On 9/13/2019 at 5:42 PM, LUZITANO said:

Another thing is in the warnings across the map. Warning that some goals are being attacked is one thing, but revealing air traffic positions is tricky, better to let people kill each other without spoiling the surprise.

I realized that the Combat Box removed some warnings in the objectives. Well ... I hope this has happened, "surprise" is important to battle and that people need hunt each other without the help of warnings.

[Roland_HUNter]

On 8/11/2019 at 12:05 AM, LUZITANO said:

I will try to group some historical informations

The 190 did not participate in the Battle of Stalingrad. If I'm wrong tell me. But BOS has Velikiye Luki maps, and I think the 190 participated in this map (near Moscow)
Well... All servers (at least some times) "mix" technologies and airplanes... But I think it's important to recreate the battles as historically as possible. In this regard WOL is very positively
All I am suggesting is for those who want a historical reference as a parameter for battles

Some historical tips
La-5 Introduced during the battle of Stalingrad, significantly used in winter of 42
La-5F Improved version that heats least. Introduced in early 1943
La-5FN From summer 43. Maybe not exactly during the Prokhorovka clash, but certainly during Kursk
109 G-6 109 most produced version. 30mm cannon only in very late 43
190 A-3 190 did not participate in stalingrad, but did take part in Velikiye Luki battle. Velikiye Luki is 430 km from Moscow and 1200 km from Stalingrad. Also fight near Rzhev

Spit.IXe From 1944. Bombs and rockets only after de battle of Normandy or during the late stages. M70 engine only in late 1944 or early 45... If someone is going to make a battle in 1943 or early 1944 they need to cut almost all modifications leaving only the mirror and the CW option. This Spitfire is identical to the IXc version, just has a different weaponry
190D-9 The game model was used in 1945. The first units used in 1944 did not have the MW-50 system. Entered service with JG26 in November 1944

109 K-4 made their combat debuts during Operation Bodenplatte, the last desperate mass Jabo strike against British and American air bases in France on January 1, 1945. By then, they were too few
P-51D-15 This version arrived late in Europe. It probably started being used in summer of 44, but only became popular months later. Armed with 4x50 it can be an adapted P-51B
Tempest V Made a very limited participation on D-Day, I don't consider that participation relevant. It was used on the frontline in a limited numbers at the end of 44 and more intensely in 1945
Hs 129 B-2 Began in early 1942 and participated in Stalingrad, Kuban and Kursk

 

What about mixing Soviet planes with BOBP?
This is another tricky point ... some servers mix planes and periods that didn't exist. Example ... Eastern battles in spring 1944 with the 109K and Spitfire IX on the east front ... that makes no sense!

Of course it is impossible to do 100% historic battles with the limitations of options we have, but ... it's possible to do very close to history

 

Good channel for understanding the geography of war in the East

I know I'm boring, but I love the battles and the missions of the servers

 

G-6 already had erla canopy and Mk108 in 1943 august. First G-6 flew in Sicily 1943 february.
First D-9 was used by the most succssfull Jagdgruppe in normandy first: III./JG 54 "Grünherz". 1944 sept 9. They had MW50 aswell.

The first known loss of a K-4 occurred on October
19, 1944, when Werknummer330305 crashed while
being flown by Uffz. Pospiech of 3./FIÜG 1 (S). The
same day the Sonderkommando OKL lost a K-4 with
the Werknummer 330319. The aircraft's pilot, Ofw.
Galli, was apparently injured in the incident

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

On 10/22/2020 at 6:28 PM, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

G-6 already had erla canopy and Mk108 in 1943 august. First G-6 flew in Sicily 1943 february.
First D-9 was used by the most succssfull Jagdgruppe in normandy first: III./JG 54 "Grünherz". 1944 sept 9. They had MW50 aswell.

The first known loss of a K-4 occurred on October
19, 1944, when Werknummer330305 crashed while
being flown by Uffz. Pospiech of 3./FIÜG 1 (S). The
same day the Sonderkommando OKL lost a K-4 with
the Werknummer 330319. The aircraft's pilot, Ofw.
Galli, was apparently injured in the incident

The first D-9s had Erhöhte Notleistung boost, it wasn't MW 50, it was just increased manifold pressure like the Fw 190 A-8 had. In this case it was 1.7 ata for 1900 PS. The MW 50 kits for the Dora started appearing in December 1944 iirc, that is the configuration we have in game with 1.8 ata for 2100 PS.

[357th_KW]

I certainly wouldn't argue with Prien & Rodieke as far as when the first K-4 airframe was lost.  But as best I can tell from the OOBs at http://www.ww2.dk/ and reviewing various unit histories, the first combat losses from an actual front line fighter unit were from III./JG27 on November 2nd 1944 (engaged with 8th AF P-51s flying out of England).  At the time, JG27 was based in central and eastern Germany where they had been rebuilding and spent November engaged against the 8th Air Force bombing campaign.  The first example I can find from a unit based on the Rheinland map, is III./JG26 on November 27th (again, 8th AF P-51s out of England) - apparently all of III./JG26's K-4s came from the factory with the gondola weapons mounted.  If we fast forward to Bodenplatte on 1st January, K-4's made up about 12% of the available fighters.  It's only after most of the Luftwaffe was withdrawn to the eastern front at the end of January 1945, that K-4s in the hands of JG27 and JG53 became the standard 109 on the western front (and there were still some G-14s and G-10s in the mix).  It appears that those early K-4s in the November time frame actually had a lower 1.75ata boost limit, with 1.8ata showing up in literature in December.  The DC mod (1.98ata) was tested by II/JG11 after they were withdrawn from the western front in January 1945, and appears to have been approved for use by JG27 (based on the Rheinland map) and 53 (on the southern end of the front near Stuttgart) on March 20th 1945 per documents on Kurfurst.org.  JG27 retreated east off the Rheinland map into central Germany at the end of March.  They were involved in a couple big fights in that brief window, once again with 8th AF P-51s flying out of England.

 

With regard to the D-9, from Dietmar Hermann's Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Long Nose:  "The Junkers technical field service visited III./JG54 monthly.  In October the total number of Fw 190 D-9's on strength with the Gruppe rose to 68.  Of these, 53 had been converted to 1,900 h.p. and one was delivered by Focke-Wulf with the MW 50 system." - "In its November report, Junkers noted that all the aircraft of the three new Gruppe were being converted to 1,900 h.p. ..." - "By the end of December 1944 there were 183 Fw 190 D-9s in operation with the increased performance modification, and 60 more had been delivered with the MW 50 system and were at the point of entering service."  The handful of engagements I've been able to find that involved III./JG54 in October (they were still working up the new airplanes, but had deployed two staffeln to provide top cover to Me262s around Rheine/Achmer/Hopsten) appear to have been against 8th AF P-47s and P-51s. 

 

From Donald Caldwell's JG 26 Luftwaffe Fighter Wing War Diary Volume 2 describing the action on December 26, 1944 : "The biggest news the returning pilots had for their comrades was the Mustangs' superiority in speed and acceleration to their Dora-9s, none of which were equipped with methanol injection."  Incidentally the Mustangs they engaged that day were from the 361st FG, which had just moved to the continent 3 days earlier and were now limited to the 100 octane fuel that the 9th AF had available at its bases. 

 

It's really too bad we don't have a baseline of the 1900hp on the D-9 with MW-50 as an option.

[LUZITANO]

We have to take into account that sometimes the model we have in the game is not exactly the model that debuted in a certain period. I make the following relation:

Time when the plane/modification was launched X Plane/modification we have in the simulator X Time when the plane/modification was used extensively X Game balance (if possible).

 

Hurricane Mk II Debut late 1941 north sector. Russians guns in the spring of 1942, Hurricanes were modified in Moscow factories. 4x hispanos cannons "Mk.IIC" in late 1942 and "Mk.IID"  the spring of 1943 in the Caucasus.

https://airpages.ru/uk/hursu.shtml

[357th_KW]

One aircraft that really should be addressed here is the Bf110 - particularly it's regular appearance in late war multiplayer servers.  The 110G is widely available on many servers in late war time frames, and sees a lot of use as a ground attacker.  This is completely at odds with the historical use of the Bf110 where it was almost never seen during the day in the late war period. 

 

By the beginning of 1944 only a handful of units were still employing the Bf110 in a daytime role: ZG1, ZG26 and ZG76.  ZG1 had two Gruppen of Ju88Cs (the old KG40 in France and these would go on to carry out a few daytime ground attack missions over Normandy before the unit disbanded) and one gruppe of Bf110s based in Austria that were employed against 8th and 15th Air Force bombers.  ZG26 was heavily employed against US bombers, and was based in West and Central Germany at the beginning of 1944.  One Gruppe had already converted to Me410s in 1943, and the other two switched over in March/April of 1944.  These units ended up based at Konigsberg in central Germany by May of 1944 and continued their anti-bomber role until August of 1944 - after that these units were gradually disbanded and the pilots transferred into single engine fighters.  ZG76 operated 110s and later 410s, again in the anti-bomber role and were primarily based around Vienna and Prague.

 

At the beginning of January 1944, ZG 26 (the only daytime 110 unit based anywhere near our Rheinland/Normandy maps) had 41 Bf110s and 17 Me410s.  At the beginning of June they had already moved to central Germany and had 14 Bf110s and 70 Me410s. 

 

Looking at Allied victory claims we can see the exact same trend.  8th Air Force fighters encountered 110s and 410s regularly early in 1944, but these encounters became rarer and moved eastward until they dried up by August of 1944.  After that time I found exactly 3 encounters between 8th AF fighters and 110s or 410s (using Kent Miller's work on 8th AF victory claims and losses for reference here).  On September 1st the 78th Fighter Group's P-47s encountered 4 Bf110s at 8:30pm and shot them down.  These appear to have been night fighters that were either getting an early start on their sorties or were repositioning.  A single 410 was encountered on November 6th 1944, and another single 110 on January 25th 1945.  These three encounters were the only 110s/410s seen in the air by the 8th AF from late Summer 44 to the end of the war!

 

Looking at the 2nd Tactical Air Force we see a similar story (Chris Shores' 2nd TAF series).  From the beginning of 1944 through the summer of 1944 I found 5 cases where night fighters and bombers flying 110s or 410s were encountered during the day.  Most of these were dusk or dawn encounters with night units that got started early or stayed out too late.  I found one example of an encounter with a lone 410 over Nijmegan on Sept 27th during the day.  On Feb 13th 1945, Spit XIVs caught a single 110 from 11./NJG1 in the middle of the day and shot it down while losing one of their own to its rear gunner.  On April 14th there was one more encounter between Spit XIVs and a 110 when a single 110 was found towing an Me163 to repo it to another base.  So from January of 1944 to the end of the war, the 2nd TAF had 8 encounters with 110s or 410s (a total of 10 aircraft as best as I can tell).

 

TLDR:  Bf110s were only used in a daylight role against US daylight bombing raids, and that was stopped by August 1944.  Outside of that, 110s (and 410s) simply weren't used during daylight hours.  They shouldn't be present in most BoBP or BoN scenarios, and definitely shouldn't be carrying out any ground attack missions.

 

 

 

 

[ZachariasX]

21 minutes ago, -332FG-KW_1979 said:

TLDR:  Bf110s were only used in a daylight role against US daylight bombing raids, and that was stopped by August 1944.  Outside of that, 110s (and 410s) simply weren't used during daylight hours.  They shouldn't be present in most BoBP or BoN scenarios, and definitely shouldn't be carrying out any ground attack missions.

Would you want servers that feature the Germans basically having given up on any meaningful offensive and just use 109/190 that hose down soft targets of opportunity with guns and then run for it?

[Avimimus]

On 8/10/2019 at 6:05 PM, LUZITANO said:

What about mixing Soviet planes with BOBP?
This is another tricky point ... some servers mix planes and periods that didn't exist. Example ... Eastern battles in spring 1944 with the 109K and Spitfire IX on the east front ... that makes no sense!

 

Hmm... if we ever do get an '45 East scenario... it might pave the way for an 'Operation Unthinkable' mode where war has broken out between NATO and the USSR in 1947...