Will AI ever improve in dogfighting?

[silent_one]

Ive been away a long time and on returning Im really disappointed in the enemy AI.  Fighters just seem to fly in circles .  I remember AI being awesome in BOB , BOB2 and MIG ALLEY ( all same developer ) and at times you couldn't tell the difference from a human and AI it was so tough.  I cant understand how when we are like 15 years ahead of these games the enemy AI is so , well lame  I cant understand why there's the focus on new planes and maps and not on improving the actual experience.  Will there be improvements or is this it?

[bzc3lk]

13 minutes ago, silent_one said:

Ive been away a long time and on returning Im really disappointed in the enemy AI.  Fighters just seem to fly in circles .  I remember AI being awesome in BOB , BOB2 and MIG ALLEY ( all same developer ) and at times you couldn't tell the difference from a human and AI it was so tough.  I cant understand how when we are like 15 years ahead of these games the enemy AI is so , well lame  I cant understand why there's the focus on new planes and maps and not on improving the actual experience.  Will there be improvements or is this it?

 

Dev Diary   227

"Improved AI maneuvering in a dogfight. Our new programmer is working on this (the recent formation keeping improvements are his work), but remember there is still a long way to go in this area. "

 

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by bzc3lk

[silent_one]

Thanks.Hes not kidding when he says theres a long way to go.  That turn in a circle fighting does my head in   The fight programming in BOB was incredible. If we could have that in a game with IL2's fidelity it wold be awesome  

Edited July 27, 2019 by silent_one

[RedeyeStorm]

I found that the ai only circle fights at low altitude. When higher up the use far more vertical manouvers. Started a pwcg kuban campaign flying the p39. The ai 109 g4 and 6's kept their energy well and were using b&z tactics. This was at 3 to 40000 meters.

 

Not saying that the ai couldn't be improved but itis already better then before.

Edited July 27, 2019 by [Pb]RedeyeStorm

[seafireliv]

4 hours ago, silent_one said:

Ive been away a long time and on returning Im really disappointed in the enemy AI.  Fighters just seem to fly in circles .  I remember AI being awesome in BOB , BOB2 and MIG ALLEY ( all same developer ) and at times you couldn't tell the difference from a human and AI it was so tough.  I cant understand how when we are like 15 years ahead of these games the enemy AI is so , well lame  I cant understand why there's the focus on new planes and maps and not on improving the actual experience.  Will there be improvements or is this it?

20 years ago I really expected AI to be so much better by today, but there were factors I did not see...

 

1. The huge jump to Multiplayer. Resources go into that and the money is there.

2. Easier to do becuase all you really make are the maps and interactive items, the Player provides the rest.

3. Many companies don`t see it as a worthwhile effort, financially.

3. Making a Human-like AI is hard

 

 

I think we`re lucky just to get a decent campaign, let alone AI. I really do hope they will keep working on making Ai better though. And I always buy games that make a big point about having a great AI.

Edited July 27, 2019 by seafireliv

[HappyHaddock]

I guess 20 years ago the AI had to contend with much less "decision making" in terms of piloting;

 

The more complicated the simulation aspects of flight modelling, the more the AI has to do just to fly the plane before it starts "thinking about" dogfighting. The devs have always been very proud of the fact that in this product the AI have to contend with same physics as human players, there's no simplified flight models to make things easier for the AI.

 

Whether that is a good or bad thing is subjective, but as a single player fan I appreciate any effort that goes into improving AI to make a fairer but more challenging engagement in the air.

 

HH

[Feathered_IV]

I wish I could buy an improved AI package as optional Premium content. 

Wishing and hoping it will one day come along on its own and for free just takes too damn long and diverts resources from other areas. 

[hobotango]

AI dogfighting in my single player battles is always circling. This has led me to put IL-2 aside for quite a long time. The only thing I play now are bombers and fighter-bombers. 

 

The AI is horrible, it doesn't stay in formation, and enemy bombers wont either, theyl separate and fly alone for the most part and go in circle.

 

Is that what WW2 bombers did ?! I think not.

 

Dev diary order 227  is bringing up hope but I don't have much faith in it.

 

 

Maybe they should try to focus on fighter bomber or bombe campaign, planes where you dont have to dogfight. Oh what I would give to have a full fledged IL-2 Sturmovik campaign that last more than 11 missions. 

 

Where it is heavely scripted yes, but allowed for much better ground details. Anyway..

 

 

If the devs read this : I would gladly pay 300$ for a good AI. Yeah, that's right, 300$ if you can get me a DLC called " Human-like AI".

 

I know it must be expensive to create good AI so Im willing to pay for.

 

 

KEEP IN MIND : Haven't played the game in 6 months due to being away from home, so I don't know the last progress on AI development. Apparently planes are keeping in formation now ?! Due to the new programmer ?

 

If that is so..can I buy him a beer somehow ? Let me know how to get this guy/gal a beer and I shall do so.

Edited July 27, 2019 by hobotango

[LukeFF]

27 minutes ago, hobotango said:

enemy bombers wont either, theyl separate and fly alone for the most part and go in circle.

 

Is that what WW2 bombers did ?! I think not.

 

I don't know what game you are playing, but AI bombers absolutely do not do that in non-Quick Mission missions.

[hobotango]

15 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

I don't know what game you are playing, but AI bombers absolutely do not do that in non-Quick Mission missions.

IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad.

 

I have read they have corrected that, as I didn't play the game in 6 month, its a possibility that it has, indeed, been fixed 

 

Edit : I read your comment again, "in non-quick mission".  So the problem is still there then ? Quick mission are still part of Il-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad , yes ?  It seems we are playing the same game then.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by hobotango

[Semor76]

1 hour ago, hobotango said:

 

KEEP IN MIND : Haven't played the game in 6 months due to being away from home, so I don't know the last progress on AI development. Apparently planes are keeping in formation now ?! Due to the new programmer ?

 

 

 

not really...

 

 

Screenshot was taken from a career mission. But it´s the same for scripted missions.

But, let´s give the new programmer some time. AI programming isn´t easy.

[Thad]

14 hours ago, silent_one said:

Ive been away a long time and on returning Im really disappointed in the enemy AI.  Fighters just seem to fly in circles .  I remember AI being awesome in BOB , BOB2 and MIG ALLEY ( all same developer ) and at times you couldn't tell the difference from a human and AI it was so tough.  I cant understand how when we are like 15 years ahead of these games the enemy AI is so , well lame  I cant understand why there's the focus on new planes and maps and not on improving the actual experience.  Will there be improvements or is this it?

 

Salutations,

 

There have been minor AI improvements made  and I am sure there will be more to come.  

[Feathered_IV]

7 hours ago, hobotango said:

Maybe they should try to focus on fighter bomber or bomber campaign, planes where you dont have to dogfight. 

 

I tried that, and hoped it would be a solution for me until a better AI was developed.  Unfortunately I found myself frustrated there too by the hand of Loft.  Where the smoke and flame from my targets is vanishing not even a minute after I have destroyed them. For me it made the gameplay experience feel like a waste of time. 

[BraveSirRobin]

32 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

I tried that, and hoped it would be a solution for me until a better AI was developed.  Unfortunately I found myself frustrated there too by the hand of Loft.  Where the smoke and flame from my targets is vanishing not even a minute after I have destroyed them. For me it made the gameplay experience feel like a waste of time. 

 

‘Every combat flight sim I have ever played has had issues that “frustrated” the gameplay experience.  How did you get this far without giving up?

[bzc3lk]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

 Where the smoke and flame from my targets is vanishing not even a minute after I have destroyed them.

 

I'll be honest here and say I have to agree with you on this point. For me this is probably my biggest wish concerning future game update changes, especially in the area of ground smoke and persistent flak plumes when attacking a target for battle ambiance. With the old modded IL2, I had a flak smoke mod that changed the smoke plume duration and wow, when you were involved in attacking a carrier task force the sky was black with flak ,  just like the the actual film footage. I really hope the Devs give this some consideration for a future update, especially if they are looking towards the Pacific theatre of operations.

Edited July 28, 2019 by bzc3lk

[Sheriff88]

I've noticed an improvement in enemy AI. Especially P-47s now use vertical more. Still..I agree with comment above. I would pay a premium for Uber AI.

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

Naw… there would be complaints about any good AI flying, especially if they got really good. It would be like the complaints about the current AI gunners proficiency.

 

Are the future AI going to simulate the physiological effects flying has on the human body like it is suppose to be imposed on us live pilots. I doubt it and how would we know anyway.

 

Regardless, I think the developers are determined to give us outstanding flight models and competent and challenging AI opponents. 

[RedKestrel]

On 7/27/2019 at 9:58 PM, Sheriff88 said:

 would pay a premium for Uber AI.

In the last DD they noted they had a programmer working on improving the AI dogfighting, so you won't have to pay a premium for it. Everyone's going to get the improvements that come.

[FTC_Riksen]

On 7/28/2019 at 12:03 AM, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

Naw… there would be complaints about any good AI flying, especially if they got really good. It would be like the complaints about the current AI gunners proficiency.

 

Are the future AI going to simulate the physiological effects flying has on the human body like it is suppose to be imposed on us live pilots. I doubt it and how would we know anyway.

 

Regardless, I think the developers are determined to give us outstanding flight models and competent and challenging AI opponents. 

 

Maybe they could give us the option to tweak several AI subskill like Situational Awareness, Courage, Command, Markasmanship, etc instead of a single general one. Similar to what they have in Arma 3.

[RedKestrel]

On 7/28/2019 at 12:03 AM, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

Naw… there would be complaints about any good AI flying, especially if they got really good. It would be like the complaints about the current AI gunners proficiency.

 

Are the future AI going to simulate the physiological effects flying has on the human body like it is suppose to be imposed on us live pilots. I doubt it and how would we know anyway.

 

Regardless, I think the developers are determined to give us outstanding flight models and competent and challenging AI opponents. 

I saw this already with the Il-2 1946 AI. Many beginners considered the Rookie AI to be too challenging to defeat; that, combined with the simplified AI flight model, meant that the AI could pull off maneuvers the player couldn't follow. The constant refrain to beginners was "The AI cheats, don't feel bad" and a lot of the advice was just exploiting patterns in the AI rather than actual combat maneuvers. 

The hard part with making AI is making them smart enough to challenge but dumb enough that it feels like you're fighting human beings (and that there's a good level for beginners to not get completely owned at). Its a tough balance to strike. 

[=RS=Stix_09]

This has been an ongoing discussion since I started playing this sim/game. I have seen some improvements in AI over that time period, but more work is still required.

 

In my experience adding in vertical maneuvers does tend to often induce the AI to follow with similar. The "stuck in turn" thing  has always been a problem, and over accurate AI gunnery at very off angles is still a problem and other weirdness. As someone else said above , having the computer AI also dealing with the same Flight model , damage model and physics  as a player , I'm sure complicates the AI programming considerably too. This sim has a far more detailed FM and DM and other complicated physics than any older title I've ever played, put it all together and its not going to be an easy task (to do in real time).

 

Having been a programmer I can understand this more than most. AI is very complicated to do on a computer, that works in binary math, with a lot a variables.

 

Overtime i'm sure its going to improve, at least now they have put some more focus into it....

 

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by =RS=Stix_09

[Feathered_IV]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 5:22 AM, RedKestrel said:

In the last DD they noted they had a programmer working on improving the AI dogfighting, so you won't have to pay a premium for it. Everyone's going to get the improvements that come.

 

Hopefully it will result in some significant improvements in AI quality and not just twiddle the knobs a bit. 

[J2_Bidu]

Maybe one day AIs will cooperate on drag and bag, that would be nice. Particularly in WW2, where they can be presumed to have functioning radios.

[JtD]

I think a noticable improvement would be

 

if durationofendlessturn > 3 minutes then

 do something bloody else!!! anything!

end if

 

[Feathered_IV]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 7:56 PM, JtD said:

I think a noticable improvement would be

 

if durationofendlessturn > 3 minutes then

 do something bloody else!!! anything!

end if 

 

 

So far it is me doing the "end if"

[Chief_Mouser]

Flying a career mission in the early Il-2 over the Moscow map we were intercepted by 109s and the swine ignored the escorting fighters and came barrelling straight in with a slashing attack from the side.    Gave me quite a shock as I was expecting them to all line up neatly behind before they started firing. Plus they did some more attacks from the forward quarter before they eventually reverted to type and lined up astern. I don't recollect being attacked like that by the AI before - if that's the new guy's work then he's on the right track!

[Feathered_IV]

7 hours ago, Red_Cat said:

I don't recollect being attacked like that by the AI before - if that's the new guy's work then he's on the right track! 

 

He has not done any work in that area yet and there haven't been any new updates since his new task was announced a week ago. 

[Chief_Mouser]

16 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

He has not done any work in that area yet and there haven't been any new updates since his new task was announced a week ago. 

 

That's frightening then - they're learning on their own!

[Feathered_IV]

I know!  On my computer they've learned that if they just keep turning I will eventually just quit and leave them alone. 

[BraveSirRobin]

8 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I know!  On my computer they've learned that if they just keep turning I will eventually just quit and leave them alone. 

 

So you’re confirming that it’s an effective tactic...

[Feathered_IV]

Oh its a war winner for the AI, be sure!

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Feathered_IV said:

Oh its a war winner for the AI, be sure!

 

It’s not always about winning the war.  Sometimes it’s just about surviving a few more seconds until your enemy runs out of ammo and exits the mission.  Or just gets bored and exits the mission to go complain about the AI on the forum.  Again.

[unreasonable]

Good to see BSR agreeing with my somewhat contrarian position on the AI turning: if you are behind him and you cannot shoot him down for 3 minutes then his turning is working. Almost anything else he can do would lead to him being shot down immediately. The longer it goes on the more likely another AI is going to sneak up behind you.

 

Mannock's rules 13 and 14:

 

Pilots must keep turning in a dog fight and never fly straight except when firing.

Pilots must never, under any circumstances, dive away from an enemy, as he gives his opponent a non-deflection shot — bullets are faster than aeroplanes.

 

My priority for AI improvement is in forming up and landing in the career mode, so that large bomber formations do not attempt 180 degree turns, escorts do not fly straight through the middle of the bombers and landing does not take forever. 

[BraveSirRobin]

3 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Good to see BSR agreeing with my somewhat contrarian position on the AI turning: if you are behind him and you cannot shoot him down for 3 minutes then his turning is working. Almost anything else he can do would lead to him being shot down immediately. The longer it goes on the more likely another AI is going to sneak up behind you.

 

 

The endless turn is an ok AI solution for an aircraft that turns better than the shooter.  In other cases the aircraft should just fly straight and jink up and down.  Either way, it won't end the complaining. 

[silent_one]

Its supposed to be fun not drive you away in boredom. LOL.  Difficult to understand gamers defending the endless circle as a tactic. Its not realistic . Its not historical , Its just a dufus AI. Not a strategy. BOB 2 and Mig Alley did it better over 15 years ago and IL2 have only just now thought to improve it now. lol.  Even Rise of Flight gave a better showing than what we have in IL2

[unreasonable]

2 hours ago, silent_one said:

Its supposed to be fun not drive you away in boredom. LOL.  Difficult to understand gamers defending the endless circle as a tactic. Its not realistic . Its not historical , Its just a dufus AI. Not a strategy. BOB 2 and Mig Alley did it better over 15 years ago and IL2 have only just now thought to improve it now. lol.  Even Rise of Flight gave a better showing than what we have in IL2

 

Please choose. Do you want it to be fun, or do you want it to be realistic? Continuous turning, especially once height has been lost, is historical and it is realistic. Many - perhaps even most WW2 pilots were never trained to do anything else.

 

As to the "gamers' crack - I will just treat that with the contempt it deserves. We are all gamers here. But some of us have shelves groaning with the weight of books full of accounts of air battles from both WW1 and WW2. You may do too - perhaps some revision is in order. They are full of memoires of pilots desperately turning once they found a bandit on their six, especially once height had been lost, until - for some reason - the attacker broke off, perhaps out of fuel or because another aircraft was approaching. Perhaps there were other pilots who reversed their turns or did something else to make life less boring for the enemy behind their wingline. For some reason those accounts are scarce.

 

The people complaining about the AI turning are really complaining that they cannot shoot the AI down  when it does this. Yet they ask for better AI. It seems to me that they actually want less challenging AI.

Edited August 3, 2019 by unreasonable

[JonRedcorn]

7 hours ago, silent_one said:

Its supposed to be fun not drive you away in boredom. LOL.  Difficult to understand gamers defending the endless circle as a tactic. Its not realistic . Its not historical , Its just a dufus AI. Not a strategy. BOB 2 and Mig Alley did it better over 15 years ago and IL2 have only just now thought to improve it now. lol.  Even Rise of Flight gave a better showing than what we have in IL2

In bob2 formations we're basically one plane and flew like a flock of seagulls. Every twitch and manuever was equal throughout the formation. It's the strangest thing to see in action. 

[JtD]

On 8/3/2019 at 8:41 AM, unreasonable said:

The people complaining about the AI turning are really complaining that they cannot shoot the AI down  when it does this. Yet they ask for better AI. It seems to me that they actually want less challenging AI.

 

I have no problem shooting down turning AI, it's easy and easily boring. It's tactical suicide by the AI on top of that. I want more challenging AI.

[Yogiflight]

First, flying circles will never bring you home, especially when you are over enemy territory, the chance that your enemies get supported is much higher than the chance that you are supported.

Second, when I get attacked, I also turn, but I don't fly circles, as It is pretty easy to shoot down aircrafts flying circles, just boring, like JtD already mentioned.

I do not think, that don't fly straight, but always turn, means fly circles.

Yes the British had a tactics defensive circle, but there one aircraft was flying behind the other, so when some enemy tried to fly into the circle to shoot down one of them, he got into the firing line of the aircraft behind and was an easy prey. This is something completely different from one aircraft flying endless circles.

[SovietAce]

On 8/3/2019 at 6:16 AM, silent_one said:

Its supposed to be fun not drive you away in boredom. LOL.  Difficult to understand gamers defending the endless circle as a tactic. Its not realistic . Its not historical , Its just a dufus AI. Not a strategy. BOB 2 and Mig Alley did it better over 15 years ago and IL2 have only just now thought to improve it now. lol.  Even Rise of Flight gave a better showing than what we have in IL2

 You see thats why I choose to return to old IL2 1946. I never thought I could, but some things in BoX SP are annoying at best. Only reason why I currently play BoX is for Multiplayer. And yes, some people will defend anything, even If its complete nonsense.