Non-existent balance between VR users and TrackIR users on online server

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

thats all good but then how do you balance both Track Ir and Vr compared to 2d monitors.

Because in 2025 or even 2030 there will still be people playing on 2d screens just like now we have people still playing this on laptops
or gtx 750 @ min game res. on a 14" tft flat panel or some even still using CRT screens 

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, =TBAS=Sschatten14 said:

thats all good but then how do you balance both Track Ir and Vr compared to 2d monitors.

Because in 2025 or even 2030 there will still be people playing on 2d screens just like now we have people still playing this on laptops
or gtx 750 @ min game res. on a 14" tft flat panel or some even still using CRT screens 

 

There is no way to balance players based upon their hardware. So don’t worry about it. 

There could be VR-Only servers like there are Joystick-Only servers but there will likely not ever be enough players in a flight sim to make that feasible. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by SharpeXB

[PikAs62]

Good. But way give not VR users the same soom levels TrackIR and monitor users have?

Edited July 18, 2019 by Pikas_62

[AndyJWest]

'Zoom level' isn't really a thing. Not while you are comparing devices with wildly different fields of view and resolutions. If you want them to be 'the same', you will have to define what you mean.

[HunDread]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

4 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

It doesn't depend on anything.

 

2x is 2x larger than 1x

5x is 5x larger than 1x

10x is 10x larger than 1x

 

1x is the size of an object without zoom on anyone's own system and screen.

 

This is true under any circumstances.

And sitting half as close to your screen makes everything 2x bigger

And a 50” screen is 2x the size of a 24” screen.

 

No game will ever have the kind of “balance” you’re trying to figure out so you might as well forget it.

 

How close you sit to the screen doesn't matter a bit in this question. If you sit close 1x will be bigger if you sit far 1x will be smaller. Highlighted it for you above. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

If 1x (view without zoom) would be much clearer in VR than on monitors I would think more before arguing on this but it's rather the contrary today. Clarity is worse and it's coupled with inferior zoom. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, HunDread said:

How close you sit to the screen doesn't matter a bit in this question.

Sure it does because you’re talking about the apparent size seen by the player. You’re terribly confused... ?

1 hour ago, HunDread said:

If 1x (view without zoom) would be much clearer in VR than on monitors I would think more before arguing on this but it's rather the contrary today. Clarity is worse and it's coupled with inferior zoom. 

Again if you’re going to be an early adopter of this technology this is something you’ll just have to deal with. Nobody is forcing you to use VR

Edited July 18, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I think that many of the negative reactions in this thread (and the previous ones on similar subjects) could be avoided by phrasing the suggestion differently. Few people would be against requests along the lines of "improved VR support with additional view options". 



Calls for "balance" will always cause discomfort, particularly when they target a specific group of users such as those with TrackIR.


The PC gaming community has long accepted that hardware will be unequal. We should focus on improving the experience across all hardware configurations instead of attempting to somehow "balance" totally different devices to the same level.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[HunDread]

7 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure it does because you’re talking about the apparent size seen by the player. You’re terribly confused... ?

Again if you’re going to be an early adopter of this technology this is something you’ll just have to deal with. Nobody is forcing you to use VR

 

It's crazy you still don't (or don't want to understand). Can't do any amore to make you understand and don't care any more. Be happy with your ignorance.

[PikAs62]

7 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

The PC gaming community has long accepted that hardware will be unequal. We should focus on improving the experience across all hardware configurations instead of attempting to somehow "balance" totally different devices to the same level.

 

That is well said. On the other hand, with phrases like "balance" you  get more attention ?.

[SharpeXB]

10 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

It's crazy you still don't (or don't want to understand). Can't do any amore to make you understand and don't care any more. Be happy with your ignorance.

You’re trying to find a way to balance the size of objects that players see in the game but you aren’t factoring in the size of their screen or their viewing distance. So how does what you are trying to suggest make sense? How should the developer create a level playing field in this regard? They can’t. 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

On 7/17/2019 at 2:01 PM, Pikas_62 said:

and give VR users a snap-view function

 

On 7/17/2019 at 6:45 PM, Winger said:

- Add Snap views for VR (This should be a rather easy one). This way we VRers could set up Check six angles without breaking our necks. 

 

I could think of nothing worse... why not just install a TV camera view in your cockpit of your 6 while your at it.  Snap views are lame.

I don't use a swivel chair - its part of the challenge.  People couldn't just instantly check 6. It was hard. I'm sure it was also hard trying to fly while trying to look backwards too.

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by =EXPEND=Tripwire

[dburne]

11 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

 

I could think of nothing worse... why not just install a TV camera view in your cockpit of your 6 while your at it.  Snap views are lame.

I don't use a swivel chair - its part of the challenge.  People couldn't just instantly check 6. It was hard. I'm sure it was also hard trying to fly while trying to look backwards too.

 

 

I am with you on that.

I do have a swivel chair but even with it no way can I twist around to where I can check six.

[RedKestrel]

12 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

It's crazy you still don't (or don't want to understand). Can't do any amore to make you understand and don't care any more. Be happy with your ignorance.

This is just getting silly now. You have to think about how things would look if you were sitting in a cockpit. Both viewing options (monitor and VR) currently have tradeoffs to try and render the real world. Zoom is required for different reasons.

What VR users are doing is roughly the same as having a screen right up against their eyeballs, seeing things in a 1:1 ratio. Right? So, for example, your gunsight in the game cockpit is the same apparent size as the gunsight in a real plane. If you zoom in in VR view, you see a gunsight that is twice the size of the real one. In terms of looking at planes, you then see the plane at twice the size that it would be in real life. If the plane is 5 km away, it will appear to be about the same size as a plane 5km away would be in real life. However, due to the low resolution of current headsets, the object you see is the right size but is indistinct, so it is harder to identify. If you zoom in, the limited number of pixels used to ID the target are increased, giving you more detail (as the object is now twice the size it would appear in real life). Zoom, in this case, compensates for reduced resolution found in VR. 

On a 2D monitor, when sitting in the cockpit in-game, the gunsight appears to me to be a small fraction of the size of the real life version, if I was sitting in a real cockpit. This is because my field of view for a given resolution is much wider than it would be in real life, so I can look at a useful amount of area on a reduced size screen. If I look at a plane that is 5km away, it appears much smaller to me than if I was sitting in a real plane looking out the canopy at a real aircraft 5 km away. this makes it difficult to identify the object. If I zoom in, however, the apparent size of the aircraft on my screen approaches the size the aircraft would appear to me in the same situation IRL. The resolution, at this zoom, is quite sharp (still not as good as real life though) and the apparent size is correct, so now IDing the target is much easier. Zoom, in this case, compensates for the reduced object size that happens on a monitor.

If the relative size of objects on my monitor matched up 1:1 with Real Life, my monitor would show a big gunsight and that's it. The resolution would be better than the same view in VR, but that's because my computer and monitor only has to render a small fraction of the game's possible viewpoint. A bigger monitor basically duplicates the effect of VR - at the unzoomed view, objects are closer to what their size would be in real life, so on a huge monitor the zoom would make objects somewhat larger than they would be IRL. But there's a limit to 2D monitor size before you get serious distortion of the image at the edges, so a bigger screen has diminishing returns past a certain point. If VR ever approaches the resolution we see on good monitors today, zoom will become like binoculars. 

TL:DR; in VR, zoom is like looking through binoculars with bad vision - one day, it may be like looking through binoculars with good vision. On a monitor, zoom increases the size of objects to close to their normal size as it would be if we were sitting in a real life cockpit like you (nearly) do in VR. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by RedKestrel

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Anyways..

Games Need Balance. (for Winrates)  
Simulations Don't.

[A_radek]

Luckily, Tir users will be limited to a 45° Head rotation next patch alongside a 0.1 multiplier to rotation speed. An important step towards the realism of appreciating rear view mirrors. One day when monitors go ultra ultra wide tir users will regain the ability of checking six.

[AndyJWest]

On 7/18/2019 at 4:48 PM, HunDread said:

 

It doesn't depend on anything.

 

2x is 2x larger than 1x

5x is 5x larger than 1x

10x is 10x larger than 1x 

 

1x is the size of an object without zoom on anyone's own system and screen.

 

This is true under any circumstances.

 

The only way you can measure 'zoom' of an object is by comparing the angle it presents to the viewer on the device it is being shown on, compared to the angle it would present in real life. Which depends on the projected field of view, the width of the display, and the distance from the screen. This is simple geometry. It is not open to debate, and spouting meaningless numbers doesn't change anything.

Edited July 19, 2019 by AndyJWest

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

28 minutes ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

Luckily, Tir users will be limited to a 45° Head rotation next patch alongside a 0.1 multiplier to rotation speed. An important step towards the realism of appreciating rear view mirrors. One day when monitors go ultra ultra wide tir users will regain the ability of checking six.

and while using track ir you can still bind and use Hat swtiches like many Youtubers Do and instantly look 180 behind you in a preset saved angle.
 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

. Zoom, in this case, compensates for the reduced object size that happens on a monitor.

Actually on a monitor, the zoom view compensates for both size and resolution. There is currently no display technology that can give you both. Even a very large 4K or 8K display is very far short of equaling 20/20 vision. 

45 minutes ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

Luckily, Tir users will be limited to a 45° Head rotation next patch alongside a 0.1 multiplier to rotation speed. An important step towards the realism of appreciating rear view mirrors. One day when monitors go ultra ultra wide tir users will regain the ability of checking six.

You know real pilots can actually check six. We can just do it easier in a game. It’s hilarious that VR players want reality and then complain when they have to actually move around like reality. 

[RedKestrel]

31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Actually on a monitor, the zoom view compensates for both size and resolution. There is currently no display technology that can give you both. Even a very large 4K or 8K display is very far short of equaling 20/20 vision. 

You know real pilots can actually check six. We can just do it easier in a game. It’s hilarious that VR players want reality and then complain when they have to actually move around like reality. 

You have me there - I was just talking about the PRIMARY thing we're trying to mitigate. Since we can't see anything farther away than 9.5 km resolution in terms of spotting/ID is less of a big deal IMO.

As far as checking six...I feel like maybe some people just never look backwards when backing up their vehicles, I check six in my minivan every day! I just sat straight up in my chair and turned my head and looked directly behind me with only a minor strain on my neck. I'm only 12.5% owl (great-grand-dad on my father's side) so most people should be able to do it.

[PikAs62]

2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

On a monitor, zoom increases the size of objects to close to their normal size as it would be if we were sitting in a real life cockpit like you (nearly) do in VR. 

 

Correct. But in VR the opject that is as big as in real life doesn´t can be idetified due to the inferior resolution. Monitor/TrackIR users have the zoom to compensate the smaller representation of objects - VR users need zoom to compentate the inferior resolution.

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Pikas_62 said:

VR users need zoom to compentate the inferior resolution.

And 2x zoom isn’t enough?

See this whole discussion is what convinces me not to use VR. It’s funny how some players claim the resolution isn’t that bad but here the truth comes out. I’ve worn the headsets and can’t imagine playing a flight sim in one because the resolution is so poor. 

Also I can’t imagine what zoom view looks like in VR. Is your view fixed? Or can you use 6 DOF while zooming? How would that not make you sick? If the zoom were greater than 2x and you were able to move your head the increased sensitivity would make you sicker. 

Edited July 19, 2019 by SharpeXB

[PikAs62]

Many of us VR users uses the 3Dmigoto mod that provides 2x, 5x and 10x zoom already.  Bui the creator of the mod has to recode the mod after every patch. We shouln´t need a mod for this function as monitor/TrackIR users have this in the gamecode and it should be the same for VR. The zooms don´t make sick. And yes with VR you have 6dof.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Pikas_62

[dburne]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And 2x zoom isn’t enough?

See this whole discussion is what convinces me not to use VR. It’s funny how some players claim the resolution isn’t that bad but here the truth comes out. I’ve worn the headsets and can’t imagine playing a flight sim in one because the resolution is so poor. 

Also I can’t imagine what zoom view looks like in VR. Is your view fixed? Or can you use 6 DOF while zooming? How would that not make you sick? If the zoom were greater than 2x and you were able to move your head the increased sensitivity would make you sicker. 

 

Nah you convinced yourself of that a long time ago...

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And 2x zoom isn’t enough?

See this whole discussion is what convinces me not to use VR. It’s funny how some players claim the resolution isn’t that bad but here the truth comes out. I’ve worn the headsets and can’t imagine playing a flight sim in one because the resolution is so poor. 

Also I can’t imagine what zoom view looks like in VR. Is your view fixed? Or can you use 6 DOF while zooming? How would that not make you sick? If the zoom were greater than 2x and you were able to move your head the increased sensitivity would make you sicker. 

 

Looks like 2x zoom.

Holding still is fine, moving head around gets a little wonky.

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 

See this whole discussion is what convinces me not to use VR. It’s funny how some players claim the resolution isn’t that bad but here the truth comes out. I’ve worn the headsets and can’t imagine playing a flight sim in one because the resolution is so poor. 

Also I can’t imagine what zoom view looks like in VR. Is your view fixed? Or can you use 6 DOF while zooming? How would that not make you sick? If the zoom were greater than 2x and you were able to move your head the increased sensitivity would make you sicker. 

 

You've  "worn the headsets"?   Does this mean you haven't actually tried GBS or DCS in VR?

 

Comparisons between VR and 2D screens are meaningless in my opinion as they provide two completely different experiences. 

 

And it's ok not to like or want a VR headset.

 

But at least give it a go.  

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

You've  "worn the headsets"?   Does this mean you haven't actually tried GBS or DCS in VR?

 

Comparisons between VR and 2D screens are meaningless in my opinion as they provide two completely different experiences. 

 

And it's ok not to like or want a VR headset.

 

But at least give it a go.  

I’ve used VR at work in architectural design. In that regard it’s really fantastic. 

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve used VR at work in architectural design. In that regard it’s really fantastic. 

 

Try a spot of close formation flying with a group of A20s.   It's quite an experience in VR.

[Wraithzlt]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And 2x zoom isn’t enough?

See this whole discussion is what convinces me not to use VR. It’s funny how some players claim the resolution isn’t that bad but here the truth comes out. I’ve worn the headsets and can’t imagine playing a flight sim in one because the resolution is so poor. 

Also I can’t imagine what zoom view looks like in VR. Is your view fixed? Or can you use 6 DOF while zooming? How would that not make you sick? If the zoom were greater than 2x and you were able to move your head the increased sensitivity would make you sicker. 

 

A bunch of posts in this thread arguing against VR in IL2 and you haven't even tried it? OMG.

If only you actually knew what you were missing out on ?

Happy flying "Forum Warrior".

[kissklas]

If any aircraft that ever was fitted with a mirror could have one, that would be awsome. Not that my neck couldn't use some more exercise, but in VR the mirror is actually insanely useful.

 

Also how is a poor sod supposed to drink his beer with a vr headset and a knot on his neck!? ?

[SIA_Sp00k]

Hmmm this thread flys like a I16 in a Cyclone, all over the place.

 

Lets answer one point first. Lets keep it within the boundaries of the question asked and we can wander off onto our own agendas and tangents afterwards.

 

Question:  Should VR users get a rear 6 snap view?

 

 

Answer: .......yes.

Edited July 20, 2019 by TWC_Sp00k
I made a boo boo

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Wraithzlt said:

A bunch of posts in this thread arguing against VR in IL2 and you haven't even tried it?

Yeah I’ve used a VR headset just not for gaming. I’m not against VR I’m against the idea of handicapping monitor users in the game down to the level of the HMDs

And I’m amused by the idea of VR players wanting snap views because they don’t like the reality of having to move like reality. 

Part of the VR discussion or considering it involves looking at how widespread it’s adoption in gaming will be. This thread makes its future look uncertain because it appears most people don’t like actually having to move physically when gaming. That’s why the Kinect bombed for example. As good as VR headsets might get that’s one factor which won’t change. People like to play games with their thumbs not their whole body. 

[dburne]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah I’ve used a VR headset just not for gaming. I’m not against VR I’m against the idea of handicapping monitor users in the game down to the level of the HMDs

And I’m amused by the idea of VR players wanting snap views because they don’t like the reality of having to move like reality. 

Part of the VR discussion or considering it involves looking at how widespread it’s adoption in gaming will be. This thread makes its future look uncertain because it appears most people don’t like actually having to move physically when gaming. That’s why the Kinect bombed for example. As good as VR headsets might get that’s one factor which won’t change. People like to play games with their thumbs not their whole body. 

 

The #1 selling game in the Oculus Store is Beat Saber, which involves a lot of physical movement.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

6 hours ago, TWC_Sp00k said:

Question:  Should VR users get a rear 6 snap view?

 

 

Answer: .......yes.

 

No.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

This is what repressive minority is try to do. Yes u can have more option to improve SA but not  crippling majority of other users because you are different . If you choose to play with all and in yours way you need to adjust.

Edited July 20, 2019 by 307_Tomcat

[PikAs62]

I have already stressed that I do not want someone to take something away. I do not need to repeat myself here. I just want to know why so many seem to be against it, that VR users get more zoom levels ...

[Lusekofte]

To say it simply. If I manage to make a choice about what vr to buy. I would take the good with the bad. 

I was not willing to make the compromise having vr with first generation. But I guess I am with next. I see no harm in a snap view backwards but, when you guy bought VR you knew about this realistic feature. 

You do what they did. I have a non centering stick, it do not give me advantages, but it give realism in a degree a desktop joystick ? never can

Edited July 20, 2019 by LuseKofte

[JonRedcorn]

How did I know Sharpe would be in here fighting the good fight. Preach brother! Vanquish those 3d devils back to the chasms of hades! You are truly touched. ?

[DD_Arthur]

Sharpe is entitled to his opinion.  If the point of the OP is an appeal for increased zoom level in VR, thats cool too.  If the devs can improve/enhance the game for all users then that is very cool.

 

Once again,  comparisons between a screen and a VR headset seem more and more meaningless in my opinion.  As a VR user,  after years of 360 degree head-on-a-stick, TrackIr awareness I really like the thoroughly realistic restrictions now placed on us.

If this is seen as some 'competitive' disadvantage then I'm willing to accept it and enjoy the other, massive benefits VR brings.

[PikAs62]

I could never go back to 2D. In VR, it feels like I'm really sitting in this tight cockpit. But of course, the resolutions of the current VR HMD can not compete with the monitor. Therefore VR makes it much harder to recognize goals. All I want is that this is somewhat compensated by the higher zoom levels. 2D users have these zoom levels since the beginning. If snap view is an issue here - I don´t really need it. It would be a nice addon, but not really important for me.

[SvAF/F16_Goblin]

I would like the zoom to be as "zoomed in" for both VR and Screen users, that's it. Nothing more. No "check six snap view". I can get a Pimax for greater resolution and FOV and spare my neck a bit when checking six but I personally bought VR for the immersion.

[SCG_motoadve]

On 7/17/2019 at 11:22 AM, Brzi_Joe said:

It is not. I can turn and see 6 with edge of my screen, but with migoto zoom that edge of the screen is lost again. In VR without migoto zoom just view is useless.

@ developers; please implemet "snap turn view", it exist now in stam vr, oculus, etc., just add it to game as bindable key.

No please , fix the zoom yes , no snap view, thats unrealistic.

Drive your car, can you check six? Can you turn your neck 180 degrees? No.