VR (Index) vs. Monitor (FullHD & 4K) pictures compasiron

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, Talon_ said:

I consistently out-spot all my wingmen, who in about 50:50 ratio use monitors or VR devices.

Well spotting is a skill, so the same thing is true of monitor and VR users alike. 

 

Bottom line I can’t say I've seen many consider VR some sort of hardware advantage. It’s not the clear benefit that head tracking or a better screen represents. Maybe someday it will be. 

[Talon_]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Bottom line I can’t say I've seen many consider VR some sort of hardware advantage. It’s not the clear benefit that head tracking or a better screen represents. Maybe someday it will be. 

 

So says the man who has never flown in VR in the midst of a thread full of VR users trying to share their positive opinions.

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

So says the man who has never flown in VR in the midst of a thread full of VR users trying to share their positive opinions.

I’ve never seen non-VR users complain that VR players have some sort advantage over them. 

To the contrary there are many posts by VR players complaining that TrackIR has an advantage over them. 

[Talon_]

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve never seen non-VR users complain that VR players have some sort advantage over them. 

To the contrary there are many posts by VR players complaining that TrackIR has an advantage over them. 

 

Because players graduate from TrackIR to VR, VR players have an appreciation for both sets of hardware and at first miss some of the nice usability features of TrackIR i.e. owl necks and rapid turns. TrackIR players see these posts from VR newbies but don't see anything posted by experienced VR users who have learned to adapt to the different ways their hardware works. I'm a VR player and the only advantage TrackIR has is in maximum zoom capability, which is far outweighed by the advantages VR brings to gunnery and positional awareness.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Because players graduate from TrackIR to VR, VR players have an appreciation for both sets of hardware and at first miss some of the nice usability features of TrackIR i.e. owl necks and rapid turns. TrackIR players see these posts from VR newbies but don't see anything posted by experienced VR users who have learned to adapt to the different ways their hardware works. I'm a VR player and the only advantage TrackIR has is in maximum zoom capability, which is far outweighed by the advantages VR brings to gunnery and positional awareness.

Add to this resolution and performance problems. Those may get solved eventually though. The majority of VR posts have convinced me to stay away from it though. For now. 
Personally I’m all about realism so I wouldn't want to rely on snap view or zoom mods if I used VR. I want the technology developed enough so those aren’t needed. The headsets need better FOV and resolution. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Because players graduate from TrackIR to VR, VR players have an appreciation for both sets of hardware and at first miss some of the nice usability features of TrackIR i.e. owl necks and rapid turns. TrackIR players see these posts from VR newbies but don't see anything posted by experienced VR users who have learned to adapt to the different ways their hardware works. I'm a VR player and the only advantage TrackIR has is in maximum zoom capability, which is far outweighed by the advantages VR brings to gunnery and positional awareness.

Funny because according to this player, a TrackIR is “God Mode” compared to a Rift S which is what the expert player in the video was using. 

That’s ok, you get the same contradictory accounts of visibility from players using monitors. Some can see targets and some can’t. But the above post is just another example of VR players complaining about its weaknesses. I don’t see people making the same statements about TrackIR. 

[Georgio]

On 11/24/2019 at 7:00 PM, SharpeXB said:

Personally I’m all about realism so I wouldn't want to rely on snap view or zoom mods if I used VR. I want the technology developed enough so those aren’t needed. The headsets need better FOV and resolution. 

 

If you were all about realism then you'd have embraced VR already. A headset like a Reverb or Pimax 5k already has sufficient resolution to dismiss your argument.

Yes, we need better FOV and ideally 8K resolution but make no mistake, current VR with a capable machine and player is more than up to the task.

 

You know what is interesting and that is human perception. My form tutor at school was a Lancaster rear gunner during WW2 and he told me that he could see perfectly well at night through the plexiglass and that when he fired his guns he'd close his eyes and look away to preserve his night vision.

 

Roll on 20 odd years and I managed to get into the rear turret of a Lancaster and I couldn't believe just how bad the view through the glass was and that was in daylight.

The difference was that my teacher's perception was heightened because his crew depended on him and after a few missions he was experienced enough to know what to look for.

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, Georgio said:

 

If you were all about realism then you'd have embraced VR already. A headset like a Reverb or Pimax 5k already has sufficient resolution to dismiss your argument.

Yes, we need better FOV and ideally 8K resolution but make no mistake, current VR with a capable machine and player is more than up to the task.

 

 

Fyi - you are wasting your time responding, some just will not consider embracing VR. And that is ok, nothing wrong with that - just some like to argue for argument's sake. And that is for nothing really.

I am not even sure why these so called comparisons of VR to Monitor, or VR to Track IR, even pop up. VR is a totally different experience to either of those and in a world of it's own. They really can not be compared. As time progresses, the technology will get better and improve. As it does it will gain more traction and more players will try it out.

 

Some like VR, some don't. No right or wrong, no my way is better than your way. Just two very different experiences.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Georgio said:

If you were all about realism then you'd have embraced VR already.

IMO VR is far from ready and it’s future in gaming is not certain. Although by accounts this game performs well, other sims do not and may never. 

Look at the upcoming MSFS 2020. I don’t see this working well in VR at all. Just look at those graphics... Yes I’m into realism but I’m also into hardware that performs flawlessly and so far VR is not there. 

3 hours ago, dburne said:

I am not even sure why these so called comparisons of VR to Monitor, or VR to Track IR, even pop up. VR is a totally different experience to either of those and in a world of it's own. They really can not be compared.

Agree. They really cannot be compared directly at all. 

[dburne]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

IMO VR is far from ready and it’s future in gaming is not certain. Although by accounts this game performs well, other sims do not and may never. 

Look at the upcoming MSFS 2020. I don’t see this working well in VR at all. Just look at those graphics... Yes I’m into realism but I’m also into hardware that performs flawlessly and so far VR is not there. 

 

And.here.we.go.

See what I mean?

 

Pointless discussions.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by dburne

[SharpeXB]

35 minutes ago, dburne said:

Pointless discussions.

What was the point of this topic anyways? Oh yeah... trying to compare screenshots of VR lenses vs monitors. Again I agree this is something that can’t be compared. And the method in the OP is pretty ridiculous. Nobody plays on a monitor with their eyeball up to the screen like that. 

4 hours ago, Georgio said:

A headset like a Reverb or Pimax 5k already has sufficient resolution to dismiss your argument.

And the Reverb performs so poorly in DCS somebody over there sent it back. This stuff just isn’t ready yet. You think you’re going to run 2160p per eye with visuals like are upcoming in MSFS 2020? No surprise that game isn’t supporting VR (at launch... if ever...)

That discussion can move elsewhere

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Gomoto]

Reverb performs very well in IL2 and DCS.

 

But I dont have to convince anybody. I just enjoy.

[dburne]

2 hours ago, Gomoto said:

Reverb performs very well in IL2 and DCS.

 

But I dont have to convince anybody. I just enjoy.

 

 

That right thar be the name of da game.

[MercCrom175]

On 11/24/2019 at 9:29 AM, SharpeXB said:

I’ve never seen non-VR users complain that VR players have some sort advantage over them. 

To the contrary there are many posts by VR players complaining that TrackIR has an advantage over them. 

Ya trac ir is unrealistic, you have an Owl neck which no human has.  If they do You just snuck up behind them like a commando and broke their neck in half.....  you want to a be a realism snob with it then set the limits to what real pilots could see being strapped in and wearing a parachute.  Never flown a warbird, but ive jumped out of many airplanes and the harness for a parachute is very restrictive in its self.

  In vr its hard as you know what to squirm and stretch like your in yoga class trying to get that perfect view in mirror... but i enjoy it because its closer to the real thing and its pain and struggle and i personally enjoy that sort of stuff.

  Like many around i went through the whole gammit of pancake vision in simulators,  One screen, 3 screens, one huge 55inch 4k all with trac ir.  Then went vr and all those windows into the sims where promptly retired.  Nothing can compare to flying these warbirds in vr other than the real thing.

 

My opinion

 

[SharpeXB]

29 minutes ago, MercCrom175 said:

Ya trac ir is unrealistic, you have an Owl neck which no human has.  If they do You just snuck up behind them like a commando and broke their neck in half.....  you want to a be a realism snob with it then set the limits to what real pilots could see being strapped in and wearing a parachute.  Never flown a warbird, but ive jumped out of many airplanes and the harness for a parachute is very restrictive in its self.

  In vr its hard as you know what to squirm and stretch like your in yoga class trying to get that perfect view in mirror... but i enjoy it because its closer to the real thing and its pain and struggle and i personally enjoy that sort of stuff.

  Like many around i went through the whole gammit of pancake vision in simulators,  One screen, 3 screens, one huge 55inch 4k all with trac ir.  Then went vr and all those windows into the sims where promptly retired.  Nothing can compare to flying these warbirds in vr other than the real thing.

 

My opinion

 

Ok but you confirmed what I just said about VR being a disadvantage. 

[MercCrom175]

checking your six yes, thats it

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, MercCrom175 said:

checking your six yes, thats it

Although by nature VR is always going to require you to physically move more, it would help if the headsets had a wider FOV. They restrict your view like wearing a scuba mask and make checking six that much harder. Real pilots can actually look behind them it’s just easier for us in a game. VR or not. 

[MercCrom175]

some good high fov models are out their.

[DeadMeat0383]

SharpeXB I fly in VR, I have performed better in VR than I ever did with trackir. I can spot planes better, I can identify planes easier I am more aware of my surroundings and it feels much more realistic. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the benefits and advantages of VR does not mean they do not exist, it just makes you look like a smacktard when you come into a thread like this to derail the topic with your flawed and demonstrably incorrect assumptions. As for the resolution? Current gen VR headsets sit somewhere between 1080p and 4k monitors in resolution, do you want to guess what the majority of users are using for their monitors (excluding VR users)? I'll give you a clue, its definately not 4K.

Now back on the actual topic...
It would be good to compare 1080p, 4k, a Vive/Rift 1st gen, Rift S, Index and Reverb like the pictures in the first post...

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, DeadMeat0383 said:

I can spot planes better, I can identify planes easier

Now back on the actual topic...

This and other flight sim forums are full of player’s accounts of how they can’t see well in VR. Unless they’re using some zoom mod. And even then they complain they aren’t equal. One person just referred to monitor+TrackIR as “God Mode”

Whatever. Yes back to the original topic which was this silly bunch of screen clips that don’t look like anything you’d actually see in a headset or on a screen. The HTC Vive and CV1 I’ve tried have horrible resolution. IMO wouldn’t be usable at all for sims. 
 

Hey I’m not knocking VR forever, it’s just not ready for me yet. What I need is:

- A 200d FOV so no scuba mask effect

- Resolution equivalent of 20/20 eyesight 

- Frame rate of 90 fps without reproduction. 
- High or Ultra level graphics. 
- More comfort, probably wireless 
Then I’ll give it a try. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by SharpeXB

[DeadMeat0383]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This and other flight sim forums are full of player’s accounts of how they can’t see well in VR. Unless they’re using some zoom mod. And even then they complain they aren’t equal. One person just referred to monitor+TrackIR as “God Mode”

Whatever. Yes back to the original topic which was this silly bunch of screen clips that don’t look like anything you’d actually see in a headset or on a screen. The HTC Vive and CV1 I’ve tried have horrible resolution. IMO wouldn’t be usable at all for sims. 
 

Hey I’m not knocking VR forever, it’s just not ready for me yet. What I need is:

- A 200d FOV so no scuba mask effect

- Resolution equivalent of 20/20 eyesight 

- Frame rate of 90 fps without reproduction. 
- High or Ultra level graphics. 
- More comfort, probably wireless 
Then I’ll give it a try. 

As with anything, there is a small very vocal group who complains, and a larger group who just enjoys.
I have a first gen vive and regularly fly DCS and IL-2 without issue, yes the resolution is not as good as a screen... but I use it over my 3440x1440 ultrawide monitor and trackir.

Those pictures are a perfectly fine example of the differences. It doesn't matter if they are cropped, they are still a good enough representation of the differences... but you have not played il2 in VR so you wouldn't understand, and until you take the time to get into VR even with one of the older headsets your opinion on the matter is invalid.
You just want to whinge, go find another thread to pollute with your bad attitude and ill informed views

[[DBS]TH0R]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:00 AM, Talon_ said:

I'm one of those good players and my performance is better than ever. I started out on a single monitor, moved through triple screens with head tracking and now I'm on my 2nd generation VR set. I consistently out-spot all my wingmen, who in about 50:50 ratio use monitors or VR devices.

 

I can confirm the benefits of VR. Two squad mates fly with it and out spot the rest of us on monitors. There is a definite miss-match of spotting abilities on monitors vs. VR.

 

I've yet to come across a person who tried VR and went back to monitors. Oh wait, there is one in this thread. ?

 

5 hours ago, DeadMeat0383 said:

SharpeXB I fly in VR, I have performed better in VR than I ever did with trackir. I can spot planes better, I can identify planes easier I am more aware of my surroundings and it feels much more realistic. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the benefits and advantages of VR does not mean they do not exist, it just makes you look like a smacktard when you come into a thread like this to derail the topic with your flawed and demonstrably incorrect assumptions. As for the resolution? Current gen VR headsets sit somewhere between 1080p and 4k monitors in resolution, do you want to guess what the majority of users are using for their monitors (excluding VR users)? I'll give you a clue, its definately not 4K.

 

+1

Edited November 27, 2019 by [DBS]TH0R

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

3 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

I've yet to come across a person who tried VR and went back to monitors. Oh wait, there is one in this thread. ?

 

 

+1

 

That would be me using Odyssey+ :), but frankly that was also 307_Ludojad using first Vive and 307_ Banzai using first Oculus , now he has Oculus S but still refuse to use it in comppetive environment. 

[Talon_]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

This and other flight sim forums are full of player’s accounts of how they can’t see well in VR.

 

They're full of first time users posting this stuff. On the other hand this very thread is full of experienced players contradicting those newbies saying how great current gen VR is (not the four year old designs you've tried).

 

Imagine running this game on a four year old GPU and telling everyone how unoptimised it is as a result ?

[RedKestrel]

LOL. Every VR mention or thread on the forum seems to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde in terms of people who use it. Spotting is better/worse than monitors. Aircraft ID is impossible/easy. Performance is nauseating/better than a 4k monitor.

The one thing people agree on like 90% of the time is they can't go back to a monitor setup. Every thread has at least one guy who says VR basically sucks balls compared to monitor+TrackIR but he still won't switch back. Makes me doubt the negativity a bit!

For me, the only things keeping me from VR is a) Price and b) Situation. The price for even a Rift S, which is basically first gen+, is still almost $600 CDN for me. Valve Index is like 1300 bucks, HTC Vive is about 1000. But good 2k or 4k monitors aren't really that much cheaper than entry level VR (to my surprise) and they also require beefy rigs to run. So I will have to stick to my peasant-tier 1080p monitor for the foreseeable future :/

As far as situation, by necessity my computer is kind of in a common area and gets used by other people, and I often get interrupted while gaming to help out with something around the house, cook meals, etc. So if someone needs to get my attention in a VR headset I'm probably going to have a heart attack when they tap me on the shoulder. 

I have a friend who occasionally talks about how cool it would be to have 'full dive' VR, and I'm like, man, I can't be going all Full Fidelity Immersion and then having my kid pull me out of a burning P-47 to cook them spaghetti. Plus if someone goes full weeb and traps us in a Sword Art Online death match in Il-2, I know exactly what my life expectancy is, and its not pretty (Citation: RedKestrels Stats Pages, 2018-2019).

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, DeadMeat0383 said:

Those pictures are a perfectly fine example of the differences. It doesn't matter if they are cropped, 

The examples are irrelevant because they’re just enlarged and cropped. The “sharpness” you perceive as a viewer is better qualified by pixels-per-degree, both for headsets and monitors. I could take a close-up photo of an 8K TV with my iPhone and make it look “blurry”.

The whole topic and OP are really misleading. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by SharpeXB

[dburne]

44 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The examples are irrelevant because they’re just enlarged and cropped. The “sharpness” you perceive as a viewer is better qualified by pixels-per-degree, both for headsets and monitors. I could take a close-up photo of an 8K TV with my iPhone and make it look “blurry”.

The whole topic and OP are really misleading. 

 

On that I would agree with you, there is  no way to make an accurate comparison of a VR image with a monitor image.

Two very different things in how they are displayed and how they are perceived.

 

I  chuckle when I see pics of VR headset images posted for comparison sake, as what one sees in the headset is very different to what one sees on an image of it displayed in 2d monitor.

[DeadMeat0383]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The examples are irrelevant because they’re just enlarged and cropped. The “sharpness” you perceive as a viewer is better qualified by pixels-per-degree, both for headsets and monitors. I could take a close-up photo of an 8K TV with my iPhone and make it look “blurry”.

The whole topic and OP are really misleading. 

No, the only part of the topic that is misleading would be your posts. The images show the differences in resolution, of course what you see with your eyes is going to be different, even if you and I looked at my monitor we would see different things, this does not make this thread or the pictures any less relevant.

 

 

8 hours ago, dburne said:

 

On that I would agree with you, there is  no way to make an accurate comparison of a VR image with a monitor image.

Two very different things in how they are displayed and how they are perceived.

 

I  chuckle when I see pics of VR headset images posted for comparison sake, as what one sees in the headset is very different to what one sees on an image of it displayed in 2d monitor.

You do have a point, however I object to you validating anything SharpeXB has said in this thread.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, DeadMeat0383 said:

The images show the differences in resolution, of course what you see with your eyes is going to be different,

No kidding. What you actually see doesn’t look anything like those snips. 
A VR headset and a monitor each with a 1200p resolution will look completely different considering their viewing distance. That fact is abundantly obvious. Nobody looks at a monitor with their nose pressed up to it. 

[Alonzo]

On 11/23/2019 at 10:10 PM, Talon_ said:

Tripwire and I flew 8:1 kill ratios for the month, Tomio got almost 300 kills! It's hardly a handicap outside of a few forum posts by new purchasers unused to the different way they now need to adapt to using their hardware.

 

When VR users post ace flight videos can you really say it's crippling their performance?

 

On 11/23/2019 at 10:37 PM, SharpeXB said:

Would those good players get the same or better results using monitors? 

 

On 11/24/2019 at 3:00 AM, Talon_ said:

I'm one of those good players and my performance is better than ever. I started out on a single monitor, moved through triple screens with head tracking and now I'm on my 2nd generation VR set. I consistently out-spot all my wingmen, who in about 50:50 ratio use monitors or VR devices.

 

It's unfortunate that SharpeXB persists in posting his ill informed claptrap, but I guess we VR users have to try to do something to dispel the VR hate that's coming from people who apparently have no time to actually try the hardware, they just have time to be anti-VR forum warriors.

 

*sigh*

 

Anyone else reading this who is considering VR: It's great! Join us. Lots of fun. Advantages and disadvantages compared to pancake mode. Amazing immersion, can't beat the feeling of being inside the plane.

On 11/24/2019 at 12:00 PM, SharpeXB said:

Add to this resolution and performance problems. Those may get solved eventually though. The majority of VR posts have convinced me to stay away from it though. For now. 
Personally I’m all about realism so I wouldn't want to rely on snap view or zoom mods if I used VR. I want the technology developed enough so those aren’t needed. The headsets need better FOV and resolution. 

 

^^^ This is exactly why you're getting so much pushback from VR users. This one post by you says it all.

 

If you were all about immersion you'd go for VR. And probably catch the bug and build yourself a vibrating sim rig. ?

 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Alonzo said:

It's unfortunate that SharpeXB persists in posting his ill informed claptrap, but I guess we VR users have to try to do something to dispel the VR hate that's coming from people who apparently have no time to actually try the hardware, they just have time to be anti-VR forum warriors.

It’s not “hate” to simply respond to posts. And yes for the umpteenth time I’ve worn the Rift and the HTC Vive. I don’t need to plug them into a sim to tell that they have awful resolution. This stuff will improve eventually and then maybe I’ll give it a try for this. The fact that FS2020 won’t be supporting VR for now is another no-go for me personally. 

[dburne]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not “hate” to simply respond to posts. And yes for the umpteenth time I’ve worn the Rift and the HTC Vive. I don’t need to plug them into a sim to tell that they have awful resolution. This stuff will improve eventually and then maybe I’ll give it a try for this. The fact that FS2020 won’t be supporting VR for now is another no-go for me personally. 

 

At the time the Rift/Vive resolution to me was not great, but acceptable. Enough so with the immersion I could not go back to monitor.  Original Rift/Vive however are fairly old tech now.

The likes of Rift S, Valve Index, HP Reverb have certainly upped the bar in the image clarity department, and in VR it ain't just all about resolution.

I would still have my doubts you would much care for it though based on previous postings.

 

If you are an Amazon Prime Member, you can always order Rift S or Reverb and try for up to 30 days, then if still do not care for it just send back for full refund. Dip that toe in, you know you want too.

Edited November 30, 2019 by dburne

[Alonzo]

10 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s not “hate” to simply respond to posts. And yes for the umpteenth time I’ve worn the Rift and the HTC Vive. I don’t need to plug them into a sim to tell that they have awful resolution. This stuff will improve eventually and then maybe I’ll give it a try for this. The fact that FS2020 won’t be supporting VR for now is another no-go for me personally. 

 

I agree those two headsets have awful resolution. They're also ~3 years old now. Grab a Reverb like dburne suggests, you have a kickass GPU to power it.