BF 109, ME 262 turn rates and blackout? (Reposted)

[AndyJWest]

The TacView track shows that at 1:28 the aircraft has a TAS of 109 m/s, while 20 seconds later the TAS has decayed to 88 m/s. 

 

A useful exercise for the mathematically inclined is to estimate (using whatever approximation for the Me 262's weight you think appropriate, since we don't have actual data for that) just how much  potential energy (kinetic and gravitational potential) the 262 has at the start of the turn test, and how much it has at the end. And then calculate the average 'extra power' this equates to. Feel free to do it in  joules per second, horsepower, or furlong firkins per fortnight. 

 

Edit:

I've just realised that you don't need to do much calculate it: TacView gives  a 'Mechanical energy' option in the aircraft label. Not sure what the units are.

Edited June 23, 2019 by AndyJWest

[VR_Dogfighter]

5 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

The TacView track shows that at 1:28 the aircraft has a TAS of 109 m/s, while 20 seconds later the TAS has decayed to 88 m/s. 

I'm guessing you're not looking at the correct file?

 

I have re attached here, but may I suggest you have a go.

 

 

 ME262 TRT.zip

[AndyJWest]

 

Please stop wasting peoples' time with this nonsense.

[VR_Dogfighter]

2 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

Please stop wasting peoples' time with this nonsense.

 

I see, my mistake. You are using the right file, just you stated m/s instead of km/h as per my original and cockpit guages.

Thank you anyway for your volantary, but positive contribution Andy, I am sure it will be most welcome elsewhere. 

[AndyJWest]

Regardless of whether the speed is measured in metres per second, kilometres per hour, or furlongs per fortnight, it is still 20% slower at 1:48 than it is at 1:28.

[VR_Dogfighter]

Correct, but I've also gained 

54m in altitude +14.3%, so overall yes a slight energy loss. 

 

Either way, the results are not intended to re write the in game spec, but merely a guide to show it's not a good idea to get into a downward or level turn fight with a 262 who's burnt some fuel. 

 

 

 

 

[AndyJWest]

You do realise that in a descending fight, more weight can be advantageous? Look up the formulae for kinetic and gravitational potential energy...

[VR_Dogfighter]

Very true, but more weight also increases turning circle hence 34 seconds when fully loaded. 

 

[AndyJWest]

Just in case anyone else is still reading this, I think I should make it clear that the tactics used by the Me 262 in this imaginary 'fight' are entirely sub-optimal, if it isn't already obvious enough. The Spitfire is wasting energy, but the Me 262 is wasting a whole lot more, and will rapidly run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas. Any passing Spitfire, P-47, or LaGG-3 should find a 262 at 430 m and 315 Km/h an easy target. 

[Ehret]

12 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Just in case anyone else is still reading this, I think I should make it clear that the tactics used by the Me 262 in this imaginary 'fight' are entirely sub-optimal, if it isn't already obvious enough. The Spitfire is wasting energy, but the Me 262 is wasting a whole lot more, and will rapidly run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas. Any passing Spitfire, P-47, or LaGG-3 should find a 262 at 430 m and 315 Km/h an easy target. 

 

It was a ruse which can work because any stray hit from the 262's cannons can be lethal and most will not expect that the attacking jet is so slow.

[AndyJWest]

A 'ruse' which relies on your enemy not expecting you to put yourself at a disadvantage might work once. Maybe twice. I can't see it being sustainable.

 

Fly your aircraft to its advantages, and leave the cunning plans to your opponents...