Not perfect in VR; Albatros 3Dcockpit

[BMA_West]

23 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

That's not my impression from all the years seeing people getting hooked by it. Someone who is used to gaming can pull it off without much sweat and time.

 

Telling it is a cake walk from seeing (feeling) it being done and actually doing it are 2 entirely different things;

[Guest deleted@83466]

I'm a flight simmer, and my task revolves around honing my motor skills with a stick, rudder, and throttles, trying to develop a mental picture of threats, learning the cool bfm moves and being able to do them, energy management, deflection shooting, tactics, knowing when to attack, when to run, etc.  If you think about what we do here in a combat flight sim pilots, there really are a lot of tasks to master.  With that in mind, I never thought too highly of the "rear gunner" types, who get their kills with a mouse, subject to no wind or G-force, able to use a completely artificial aiming cue for off-boresight shots, and -possibly- benefiting from a really lenient damage model against the target when turreted guns were the attacking weapon (at least in RoF).  Getting good at it is a skill..a deflection shooting skill, and a gaming skill...so I'll give them that...but it definitely it isn't something I would consider a flight sim skill.  If manning the seat took into account more of the factors that have already been mentioned, I could respect it, but as it is, not really.

 

btw, why did everyone start talking about rear gunnery in a thread started by someone complaining about the Albatros cockpit?

Edited July 20, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[No.23_Gaylion]

I did it for 3 years straight and it's not so easy as people assume it to be. It took me YEARS to get good enough to get where everyone hated me. People just assumed I showed up in a halberstadt Cl2 one day and was good at it. I enjoyed it because it took a complete mindset change from flying scout to biplace machines. I dove deep into researching historical two seater fighting tactics and found great information outside of the 1916 "fly straight and level" doctrine. I also loved doing the missions in RoF and actually being able to defend myself and complete the objective (since I had no escorts and was not flying with 2 dozen other Breguets). There's an entire "dicta Ricky Recon" in our member forums on it going over flying tactics, researched and proven gunnery tactics techniques, and theory, setting up controls etc. A two seater fighting manual of 12+ pages completely unused now with the 103rd. 

 

As much as people hate it, it teaches you how to fly a two seater in order to give your rear gunner the best shot. Mastering flying and gunning for yourself gives you the proper mindset for when an expert gunner hops in.  J30_Mein, Hangman, or Hammer could jump in my rear gun and we would not need comms whatsoever because I know exactly where the dead zones are, where to "place" the attacker, and when to "pause" to give them the best shot. It's a completely different dance than that between scout v scout. Spotting skills are transformed into a completely new level as you are almost always about to be jumped from above or below. 

 

People get so used to attacking an unescorted, single 2 seater with an AI gunner, you get complacent. You expect it to always be that easy. Attacking two seaters was not easy and they even said a well coordinated two seater could not be outmatched. Go read the Medal of Honor citation for Lt. Ralph Talbot and GySgt. Robert Robinson USMC. Oct 1918, in a DH4 , they fought off TWELVE Fokker D7's with Robinson wounded in the stomach and his arm dangling off-still able to reload and fire back. Both being the first Marine aviators to be awarded the Medal of Honor for the action.

 

What's funny is Guttman stated in an Over the Front video "in defense of the observer" that the highest scoring RFC squadron of the entire war was a brisfit unit. The must have not had g- forces and slip streams.

 

People lament J30 et al. for their mastery but I love em. Being able to make an attacking run on one and fly through the gunfire directed by an absolutely competent HUMAN gunner adds a flavor to the game completely different than attacking someone with an AI gunner. To know that I made it through that run, even if I don't down the plane feels like an accomplishment in and of itself. 

 

Speaking from experience, it's not that hard to down someone flying and gunning. You're talking about a person who is EXTREMELY task  overloaded. You also cannot use fighting tactics from the first year of the air war and expect 1916 results. They, if "they" know what they are doing, are trying to suck you into a game. You are the fly to the flytrap. If you get shot down its because you ended up the spot they wanted you to be in. Or you went to the same spot attackers always go to when they attack a two seater. Or fly the same attack route, or reacted the same way everyone else does when X happens. People do the thing again and again and again and again. When you get shot down and respawn again and again and again and again. You finally catch on to those patterns and learn if you do X he will do Y and you begin to reverse that KDR and the lamentations of the women begin. If you think it's just about aiming with a mouse you are wrong. 

 

I don't fly two seaters at all anymore except for rare occasions. I've lost almost all ability to fly and gun. You have to train yourself to fly backwards and turning and all that jazz. Those that do will always have my respect because I completely understand the difficulty of the tasks. 

 

I also know the weaknesses.

 

Yes the cockpit looks flat in VR

 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by US103_Talbot
I dont have VR

[SeaW0lf]

8 hours ago, US103_Talbot said:

I did it for 3 years straight and it's not so easy as people assume it to be. It took me YEARS to get good enough to get where everyone hated me. People just assumed I showed up in a halberstadt Cl2 one day and was good at it. I enjoyed it because it took a complete mindset change from flying scout to biplace machines. I dove deep into researching historical two seater fighting tactics and found great information outside of the 1916 "fly straight and level" doctrine. I also loved doing the missions in RoF and actually being able to defend myself and complete the objective (since I had no escorts and was not flying with 2 dozen other Breguets). There's an entire "dicta Ricky Recon" in our member forums on it going over flying tactics, researched and proven gunnery tactics techniques, and theory, setting up controls etc. A two seater fighting manual of 12+ pages completely unused now with the 103rd. 

 

As much as people hate it, it teaches you how to fly a two seater in order to give your rear gunner the best shot. Mastering flying and gunning for yourself gives you the proper mindset for when an expert gunner hops in.  J30_Mein, Hangman, or Hammer could jump in my rear gun and we would not need comms whatsoever because I know exactly where the dead zones are, where to "place" the attacker, and when to "pause" to give them the best shot. It's a completely different dance than that between scout v scout. Spotting skills are transformed into a completely new level as you are almost always about to be jumped from above or below. 

 

People get so used to attacking an unescorted, single 2 seater with an AI gunner, you get complacent. You expect it to always be that easy. Attacking two seaters was not easy and they even said a well coordinated two seater could not be outmatched. Go read the Medal of Honor citation for Lt. Ralph Talbot and GySgt. Robert Robinson USMC. Oct 1918, in a DH4 , they fought off TWELVE Fokker D7's with Robinson wounded in the stomach and his arm dangling off-still able to reload and fire back. Both being the first Marine aviators to be awarded the Medal of Honor for the action.

 

What's funny is Guttman stated in an Over the Front video "in defense of the observer" that the highest scoring RFC squadron of the entire war was a brisfit unit. The must have not had g- forces and slip streams.

 

People lament J30 et al. for their mastery but I love em. Being able to make an attacking run on one and fly through the gunfire directed by an absolutely competent HUMAN gunner adds a flavor to the game completely different than attacking someone with an AI gunner. To know that I made it through that run, even if I don't down the plane feels like an accomplishment in and of itself. 

 

Speaking from experience, it's not that hard to down someone flying and gunning. You're talking about a person who is EXTREMELY task  overloaded. You also cannot use fighting tactics from the first year of the air war and expect 1916 results. They, if "they" know what they are doing, are trying to suck you into a game. You are the fly to the flytrap. If you get shot down its because you ended up the spot they wanted you to be in. Or you went to the same spot attackers always go to when they attack a two seater. Or fly the same attack route, or reacted the same way everyone else does when X happens. People do the thing again and again and again and again. When you get shot down and respawn again and again and again and again. You finally catch on to those patterns and learn if you do X he will do Y and you begin to reverse that KDR and the lamentations of the women begin. If you think it's just about aiming with a mouse you are wrong. 

 

I don't fly two seaters at all anymore except for rare occasions. I've lost almost all ability to fly and gun. You have to train yourself to fly backwards and turning and all that jazz. Those that do will always have my respect because I completely understand the difficulty of the tasks. 

 

I also know the weaknesses.

 

Yes the cockpit looks flat in VR

 

The question is, you sound like a post from an arcade game. We are in a simulator, and these things don't exist in real life. The other question is that nowadays, since that guy from 2015 created havoc on the servers for a couple months, we have several people flying this way every day on NFF (or was, because the servers got even emptier now), when it is rare to see a duo of a pilot and a gunner. We seldom see people gunning for someone, and since 2013 I only know Bender and Darling as a duo. So it is much harder to create a duo with someone than to become your own crew flying and gunning. And this is a complete inversion of values.

 

Yesterday I tested it and after a couple of missions I started to get how it works and what I have to do to become good. And I don't even know the hacks and perks of it, I was just trying it out for the first time. If I dedicate myself, like any gamer would, I can imagine that in a few months I would be creating havoc on the servers. And why would I do that? If I were playing some sort of X Wing game I could, but not in a WWI simulator. So yes, people hate who fly and gun and it is not without a reason.

 

It is very different when we respect and ace, because we know what it took to get there and we know that he acquired a sort of combat moves that we all get inspired for. It is a beauty to dogfight an ace, really. Plus we have the perks and pitfalls of every aircraft, and it would take more than a decade to master them all. I'm sure that aces get hated somehow, but it is that mixed feeling of 'damn, he got me'. And when you are not used to and you shot down an ace, it gives you determination to fly even harder. I see it as a sport, since we don't kill each other, and it is really beautiful, hence why people get so passionate and upset sometimes.  

 

We are talking about two different things. It is not personal, but I have zero respect for who flies and gun simply because it is not real, it is an inversion of values and it tilts the whole mission to a ‘we have to deal with this troll’ attitude.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Cool great talk.

[BMA_West]

17 hours ago, US103_Talbot said:

I did it for 3 years straight and it's not so easy as people assume it to be. It took me YEARS to get good enough to get where everyone hated me. People just assumed I showed up in a halberstadt Cl2 one day and was good at it. I enjoyed it because it took a complete mindset change from flying scout to biplace machines. I dove deep into researching historical two seater fighting tactics and found great information outside of the 1916 "fly straight and level" doctrine. I also loved doing the missions in RoF and actually being able to defend myself and complete the objective (since I had no escorts and was not flying with 2 dozen other Breguets). There's an entire "dicta Ricky Recon" in our member forums on it going over flying tactics, researched and proven gunnery tactics techniques, and theory, setting up controls etc. A two seater fighting manual of 12+ pages completely unused now with the 103rd. 

 

As much as people hate it, it teaches you how to fly a two seater in order to give your rear gunner the best shot. Mastering flying and gunning for yourself gives you the proper mindset for when an expert gunner hops in.  J30_Mein, Hangman, or Hammer could jump in my rear gun and we would not need comms whatsoever because I know exactly where the dead zones are, where to "place" the attacker, and when to "pause" to give them the best shot. It's a completely different dance than that between scout v scout. Spotting skills are transformed into a completely new level as you are almost always about to be jumped from above or below. 

 

People get so used to attacking an unescorted, single 2 seater with an AI gunner, you get complacent. You expect it to always be that easy. Attacking two seaters was not easy and they even said a well coordinated two seater could not be outmatched. Go read the Medal of Honor citation for Lt. Ralph Talbot and GySgt. Robert Robinson USMC. Oct 1918, in a DH4 , they fought off TWELVE Fokker D7's with Robinson wounded in the stomach and his arm dangling off-still able to reload and fire back. Both being the first Marine aviators to be awarded the Medal of Honor for the action.

 

What's funny is Guttman stated in an Over the Front video "in defense of the observer" that the highest scoring RFC squadron of the entire war was a brisfit unit. The must have not had g- forces and slip streams.

 

People lament J30 et al. for their mastery but I love em. Being able to make an attacking run on one and fly through the gunfire directed by an absolutely competent HUMAN gunner adds a flavor to the game completely different than attacking someone with an AI gunner. To know that I made it through that run, even if I don't down the plane feels like an accomplishment in and of itself. 

 

Speaking from experience, it's not that hard to down someone flying and gunning. You're talking about a person who is EXTREMELY task  overloaded. You also cannot use fighting tactics from the first year of the air war and expect 1916 results. They, if "they" know what they are doing, are trying to suck you into a game. You are the fly to the flytrap. If you get shot down its because you ended up the spot they wanted you to be in. Or you went to the same spot attackers always go to when they attack a two seater. Or fly the same attack route, or reacted the same way everyone else does when X happens. People do the thing again and again and again and again. When you get shot down and respawn again and again and again and again. You finally catch on to those patterns and learn if you do X he will do Y and you begin to reverse that KDR and the lamentations of the women begin. If you think it's just about aiming with a mouse you are wrong. 

 

I don't fly two seaters at all anymore except for rare occasions. I've lost almost all ability to fly and gun. You have to train yourself to fly backwards and turning and all that jazz. Those that do will always have my respect because I completely understand the difficulty of the tasks. 

 

I also know the weaknesses.

 

Yes the cockpit looks flat in VR

 

 

 

^^+1

Way of laying that all that out, Talbot.

There was plenty good reason 2-seaters were so lethal.

With a good pilot It is only good logic that thier gunner had a better chance lining up his shot faster than the scout.

If the scout however has some pre-knowledge of the particular gun setup he faced he may outfox him by some slight of hand and turn the table ))) but that will only make them even ...

And most likely it will happen like you explained.

Those J30 guys are a rare sight ))) I still remember them when I first got into ROF on a NW Wargrounds with icons, it was that early ))) against now seeing them sometimes throw around those HPs or Gothats on NFF LOL

I also do respect those guys being able to pull it off to pilot backwards while manning their guns ))) but against the price of leaving the nose guns.

[US103_Baer]

Fwiw I don't have an issue with pilots who fly and gun.

 

First, they have to defend themselves and the ai gunners cannot be relied upon. Second, it makes no practical difference to anyone else playing.

 

As an attacking fighter before making a run, how do you know it's a single player or multiple human crew or human pilot with ai in the back seat? You don't. And you sure don't assume it's Hans or Otto when gunners like J30_Mein or RR are flying.

 

So if it makes no difference whether it's 1 human or multiple humans in the EA,  I don't see any problem.

 

 

Most of the cockpits look flat even without vr.

Edited July 21, 2019 by US103_Baer

[Zooropa_Fly]

In the name of being a sim it should be one person one seat.

There's also the issue of pilots who shouldn't be able to see much getting perfect 360 degree vision.

While I'm here, I'll add that it makes me laugh when I'm still getting shot at (and hit) by a tumbling, flaming, spinning, wingless fuselage 400M below.

 

I've never seen a cockpit in VR.

 

S!