WWI Planes, Weapons Groups, and Overwing Guns

[Warpig]

Last night I tried out the Albatros D.Va and S.E.5a. One thing I found odd was the weapon group behavior of the overwing gun. In this case, the main guns used Weapon group 1, and the overwing gun used Weapon group 2. For a dual stage trigger, this does not lend itself well because the overwing gun can be made to shoot at a different arc than the main guns. But with most dual stage triggers, the main guns have to be firing main guns simultaneously to activate the overwing gun (group 1 has to be activated to fire group 2). In this case, I think the wiser step would have been just to assign the overwing gun to Weapon group 3.

 

The reason for my thinking is because Weapon groups 1 & 2 do work well with a dual stage trigger on WWII planes with their MG/cannon setups. With the WWI overwing gun planes using Weapon group 2 rather than just assigning it to its own keymap, it breaks the cohesiveness, and requires another profile to be made and loaded to get the correct Weapon group behaviors.

 

EDIT: After trying trying the Sopwith Dolphin, I realize that the devs got it right with that plane. I hope that the overwing guns can be correctly assigned to Weapon group 3 on the Albatose and SE5a, just like they are on the Dolphin.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Warpig

[J2_Trupobaw]

Map second key for weapon category 2. Use dual stage trigger to fire synchronised guns or both guns, and new key to fire overwing guns alone. Problem solved (?).

 

[LukeFF]

48 minutes ago, Warpig said:

TLDR: Please change the behavior of top wing guns on WWI planes to use Weapon group 3 instead of Weapon group 2, or create a new Weapon group for them

 

That would cause crazy confusion. Just map a second button for WG2 and be done with it. 

[Warpig]

17 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

That would cause crazy confusion. Just map a second button for WG2 and be done with it. 

How would that be confusing? I still cannot find the use for Weapon group 3, it could be bound there. Or they could create a setting called "Wing guns (AlbatroseD.VA, S.E.5a)" like they label with Engine keymaps.

 

I make this suggestion based on how the majority of today's flight sticks are designed that use a dual stage trigger.

19 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Map second key for weapon category 2. Use dual stage trigger to fire synchronised guns or both guns, and new key to fire overwing guns alone. Problem solved (?).

 

The problem is that overwing guns are mapped to Weapon group 2. If you fire both guns, or all guns, it fires the overwing guns. Which is the core of the problem. Overwing guns need its own keymap.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Warpig

[J2_Trupobaw]

They do have one, for weapon group two. There are two triggers on S.E.5 stick, mapped to weapon groups 1 and 2. If you want to fire wing gun separately from synchronised gun, have another "weapon group two" key mapped (you can have 3 keys per control) and use it to fire overwing gun. The result is identical with having weapon group three with the same key, mapped to the same gun. 

[Warpig]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

They do have one, for weapon group two. There are two triggers on S.E.5 stick, mapped to weapon groups 1 and 2. If you want to fire wing gun separately from synchronised gun, have another "weapon group two" key mapped (you can have 3 keys per control) and use it to fire overwing gun. The result is identical with having weapon group three with the same key, mapped to the same gun. 

The fact the overwing guns are linked to Weapon group 2 is the problem. Because of this, when using a dual-stage trigger, I cannot fire overwings without also firing Weapon group 1 (the main guns). My suggestion is that overwing guns should not be linked to Weapon group 2.

 

I only suggested that overwings be mapped to Weapon group 3, because there is currently nothing else mapped there (that I'm aware of). In fact, I will go back and remove that suggestion to avoid further confusion. 

 

I think my later suggestion is more useful, which is for overwing guns to have their very own keymap. This allows the user to decide how or if they want to combine overwing guns with other weapons.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Warpig

[J2_Trupobaw]

1 minute ago, Warpig said:

The fact the overwing guns are linked to Weapon group 2 is the problem. Because of this, when using a dual-stage trigger, I cannot fire overwings without also firing Weapon group 1.

So don't use dual-stage trigger when you want to fire overwing alone!

Have another Weapon Group 2 button that you use when you want to fire overwing gun separately  (think of it as representation of overwings pistol trigger, pilots used to fire the gun when pointed upwards) and dual trigger as representation of trigger on control column. They both fire the same gun, one independent from another. 

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Warpig said:

How would that be confusing? I still cannot find the use for Weapon group 3, it could be bound there.

 

Dude, I know for a fact that I answered your question about that in another topic - the Sopwith Dolphin uses it for its upper Lewis MGs. ?

[Warpig]

12 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

So don't use dual-stage trigger when you want to fire overwing alone!

Have another Weapon Group 2 button that you use when you want to fire overwing gun separately  (think of it as representation of overwings pistol trigger, pilots used to fire the gun when pointed upwards) and dual trigger as representation of trigger on control column. They both fire the same gun, one independent from another. 

That forces me to use another button on my flight stick that otherwise would not be necessary if overwing guns had their own keymap. I do have a second trigger available, but that is linked to Weapon group 3. So that's both my dual-stage trigger and extra trigger both already mapped. If overwing guns had their own keymap, I could combine them with the Weapon group 3 trigger, and then they would not interfere with my WWII planes settings that use Weapon groups 1 & 2 already assigned to the dual-stage trigger.

 

It would benefit everybody if overwing guns had their own keymap. That way the choice is up to the user.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Warpig

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Warpig said:

Or they could create a setting called "Wing guns (AlbatroseD.VA, S.E.5a)" like they label with Engine keymaps.

 

That would just make things even more muddled. The system that is in place now works plenty well enough. 

[Warpig]

11 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Dude, I know for a fact that I answered your question about that in another topic - the Sopwith Dolphin uses it for its upper Lewis MGs. ?

I loaded up the Dolphin and could not get the trigger to do anything that had Weapon group 3 assigned to it. I'll have to try it again, looking for that specific weapon. Maybe I tried on the Camel instead, idk.

9 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

That would just make things even more muddled. The system that is in place now works plenty well enough. 

Well it doesn't work well, because having groups 1 & 2 already assigned to a dual-stage trigger does not give the correct behavior on WWI planes with the overwing guns. I should not be forced to fire my main weapons, while using overwing guns on a dual-stage trigger.

 

The option to separate them can be easily added in the keymap options. The freedom of choice to decide how we want to assign weapon groups is a very important consideration with how different hardware works.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Warpig

[Warpig]

Removed

Edited June 12, 2019 by Warpig

[Warpig]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

That would just make things even more muddled. The system that is in place now works plenty well enough. 

You're right, the Dolphin does use Weapon group 3, and as it turns out, it's on the overwing guns. This is the desired outcome I was talking about the entire time with the other two planes. Not sure why you were against my idea , when you knew it already exists on the Dolphin... I think the devs got it right the first time, and just made a minor over-sight with the two new planes.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Warpig

[LukeFF]

23 minutes ago, Warpig said:

You're right, the Dolphin does use Weapon group 3, and as it turns out, it's on the overwing guns. This is the desired outcome I was talking about the entire time with the other two planes. Not sure why you were against my idea , when you knew it already exists on the Dolphin... I think the devs got it right the first time, and just made a minor over-sight with the two new planes.

 

No oversights at all - Weapon Group 3 exists because it is possible to have 3 separate groups of guns on the plane at the same time - the upper Lewis Guns, the lower Lewis Guns, and the Vickers MGs. Those upper Lewis MGs become Weapon Group 2 if the lower Lewis guns are not installed.

 

Everything is working as the developers planned it to be, and I don't see any reason why they would change it.

[Warpig]

3 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

No oversights at all - Weapon Group 3 exists because it is possible to have 3 separate groups of guns on the plane at the same time - the upper Lewis Guns, the lower Lewis Guns, and the Vickers MGs. Those upper Lewis MGs become Weapon Group 2 if the lower Lewis guns are not installed.

 

Everything is working as the developers planned it to be, and I don't see any reason why they would change it.

The reason would be for what I explained earlier. By assigning all overwing guns to Weapon group 3, it does not interfere with dual-stage trigger setups. Dual-stage triggers work best when all guns fire towards the same target. Overwing guns fire at a different target, and therefore should not be on Weapon group 2 (which is usually used on a dual-stage trigger setup).

 

Why all this static about improving the game?.. Sheesh...

Edited June 12, 2019 by Warpig

[LukeFF]

11 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Overwing guns fire at a different target, and therefore should not be on Weapon group 2 (which is usually used on a dual-stage trigger setup).

 

Overwing guns absolutely fire at the same target as the fuselage guns on the SE5a.

Edited June 12, 2019 by LukeFF

[Warpig]

22 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Overwing guns absolutely fire at the same target as the fuselage guns on the SE5a.

On one plane out of three they do. On the Dolphin and Albatose they don't. And they can also be set to shoot even further upwards, same on the SE5a. Assigning them to Weapon group 3 solves this problem.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Warpig