When to use flaps on the FW-190?

[Xyperion]

Hi guys,

 

First, I will start by saying that I watched a couple of training videos for the FW-190 and they are only saying how to extend/retract the flaps. I can also see that they are using the flaps when landing.

Is there any scenario during flight/combat in which you would use the flaps or should they be used only during landing?

 

Thank you in advance,

Xyperion

[RedKestrel]

the FW190 loves to go fast and stay fast. At low speed it’s easy meat for enemy fighters, at high speeds you have excellent maneuverability. Flaps can only slow you down. In combat some people use flaps to gain angles, often in a way that would not have beeen done historically for a number of reasons. But it always costs a lot of energy you’ll wish you had later.

[WWChunk]

I use the first flap setting for takeoff, and full flaps for landing.  That's it.  I never use them in combat.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

Why would you want to make yourself slow in a plane whose biggest pro is it’s speed?

 

Landing only

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Xyperion said:

Is there any scenario during flight/combat in which you would use the flaps or should they be used only during landing?

 

The split flap design does little good during combat, so don't use it.

 

Use takeoff flaps for takeoff and landing flaps for landing.

During any other phase of flight, have them retracted.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

I really only use them for take offs on jabos, preventing/causing overshoots and landing.  

Edited June 8, 2019 by Joeasyrida

[MeoW.Scharfi]

3 hours ago, Xyperion said:

Is there any scenario during flight/combat in which you would use the flaps or should they be used only during landing?

 

Yes, i often use flaps in 190, especially when getting slow. @I-Fly-Central does it as well, also he turns with 190, it's his main fighter. Flaps make the 190 quite good, especially the lighter A3 in case of turning when you have to.

 

Sure the 190 has to stay fast but with the increasing numbers of fast allied planes like La5FN, P47, P39(yes it is fast as well), Spit Mark9 and later P51, Tempest and P38 you need to know how to defend yourself once you are not so fast anymore. What I see a lot among 190 flyers, nearly all of them are unable to defend themselves, they wobble left they wobble right  they make same poor made rolls.. it seems more like that they have accepted their fate. It's like...

..."OH I HAVE NO SPEED ANYMORE GUESS I'LL DIE" MEME INTENSIFIES.

 

Take your 190A and dogfight really mad with it instead of that "stay only fast" playstyle and sometime you will see and learn how dangerous it can be while being slow with flaps. 

 

Edit: I can easily outturn I-16s with a 190 with flaps at slow speed, without any problem. Now a part of the community be like "hAhAhA sUrE bUt WiKiPeDiA sAiD gErMuNz FeArEd I-16 MaNuVerBilITY" Just try it and you will find some impressive flight chareristics of the 190.

Edited June 8, 2019 by MeoW.Scharfi

[JG27*PapaFly]

2 hours ago, Xyperion said:

Is there any scenario during flight/combat in which you would use the flaps or should they be used only during landing? 

Definitely! I don't see why some people are so dogmatic about not using them on a plane that's supposed to be fast.

 

I fly the 190 series exclusively and make ample use of flaps. But their use is embedded in well coordinated team tactics. I never fly alone. Yes they slow me down, but they also increase lift.

Here are examples of when I use them:

 

1) We work a bandit 2vs1 as driver & shooter. When I drive the bandit my job is to maneuver with him for as long as possible in order to keep him task-saturated, so that my wingman can kill him easily.

 

2) I've zoomed, a bandit has followed me, but ran out of speed and is about to drop his nose. In that situation it's essential for me to reverse as fast as possible in order to shoot him while he is still very slow. I do a Humpty-bump with full flaps, and retract the flaps as soon as my nose points at the target.

 

3) I'm below corner speed in e.g. a D-9 and am about to outturn e.g.an LA-5

 

4) I'm defensive and want to force a bandit to overshoot. I dump flaps and either barrel roll (no stall), or I copter (Post-Stall vectoring)

 

[Xyperion]

4 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Definitely! I don't see why some people are so dogmatic about not using them on a plane that's supposed to be fast.

 

I fly the 190 series exclusively and make ample use of flaps. But their use is embedded in well coordinated team tactics. I never fly alone. Yes they slow me down, but they also increase lift.

Here are examples of when I use them:

 

1) We work a bandit 2vs1 as driver & shooter. When I drive the bandit my job is to maneuver with him for as long as possible in order to keep him task-saturated, so that my wingman can kill him easily.

 

2) I've zoomed, a bandit has followed me, but ran out of speed and is about to drop his nose. In that situation it's essential for me to reverse as fast as possible in order to shoot him while he is still very slow. I do a Humpty-bump with full flaps, and retract the flaps as soon as my nose points at the target.

 

3) I'm below corner speed in e.g. a D-9 and am about to outturn e.g.an LA-5

 

4) I'm defensive and want to force a bandit to overshoot. I dump flaps and either barrel roll (no stall), or I copter (Post-Stall vectoring)

 

Thanks for the input! Are you using full flaps in all of those scenarios or in some of them take-off flaps are preffered?

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, Xyperion said:

Is there any scenario during flight/combat in which you would use the flaps or should they be used only during landing?

In the real world you would NEVER extend flaps unless it was as described in the pilots notes. You‘d risk damaging them and if they get stuck unevenly, bailing out is your way of landing then.

In this sim however, they are extremely helpful, especially the fast deploying split flaps. As soon as you get to turn with someone, they give you good alpha. In rolling scissors, they make the Yak and the Spit stay with the 109. They make a Thunderspit from a Thunderbolt. They are extremely handy.

[Velxra]

Want to fly a 190 like a real pilot would have done then don't use flaps. Instead use partial turns and climb/diving attacks. If you want to fly like an elite sim pilot then use flaps in your turns.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

6 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

Want to fly a 190 like a real pilot would have done then don't use flaps. Instead use partial turns and climb/diving attacks. If you want to fly like an elite sim pilot then use flaps in your turns.

 

Taken from German Fighter pilot notes a lot of them flew turnfights, nearly all of them. Not many flew BnZ you see ingame.

Sources: Flugbuch des Hauptmann Lipfert, Günther Rall Mein Flugbuch

And Interviews from german fighter pilots that i gladly post if someone doesn't believe me

[MasserME262]

2 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

And Interviews from german fighter pilots that i gladly post if someone doesn't believe me

I would watch those interviews gladly even if I believe you

[Velxra]

6 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Taken from German Fighter pilot notes a lot of them flew turnfights, nearly all of them. Not many flew BnZ you see ingame.

Sources: Flugbuch des Hauptmann Lipfert, Günther Rall Mein Flugbuch

And Interviews from german fighter pilots that i gladly post if someone doesn't believe me

 

I never said American boom and zoom... 

[CAFulcrum]

Maneuvering flaps were a thing, I'm surprised to see people acting like they were never used in combat.  Maybe not with these machines but the ki43 for example made a big deal out of split flaps for increased maneuverability, and I thought a lot of american machines had combat flap settings.  Why would anyone would avoid using extra lift in certain circumstances (when you get into scissors for example and the e-fight goes out the door) short of the full down flaps or the air brakes? Was it just a PTO thing?

[MeoW.Scharfi]

12 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I would watch those interviews gladly even if I believe you

 

Sent you a PM to avoid pulluting the thread.

[JG27*PapaFly]

27 minutes ago, Xyperion said:

Thanks for the input! Are you using full flaps in all of those scenarios or in some of them take-off flaps are preffered?

I use full flaps when reversing in the vertical and for overshoot & coptering. For turning I mostly limit their use to the first setting. That mostly depends of my speed. The slower I am, the more flaps. Full flaps are called for in a flat scissor against e.g. a P-47.

 

I forgot to mention one additional advantage: the 190s stall sharply with essentially no warning with retracted flaps. Deploying flaps leads to pre-stall buffeting, which I feel with my MSFFB2 stick.

[Bremspropeller]

29 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

Sources: Flugbuch des Hauptmann Lipfert, Günther Rall Mein Flugbuch

 

Neither flew the 190 in combat.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

6 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Neither flew the 190 in combat.

 

But this one.

[InProgress]

Should you use flaps? No. Because you should not get yourself in situations to use them in the first place. It works in MP because people just stay and fight till they die on run out of ammo. There is also a difference between turnfighting which fw190 can do (dora especially) vs being slow like a snail on flaps which is ridiculus. Any competent allied pilot will shoot you down like this. It's the same with scissor, it's a tactic you can use and will work only on noobs. Anyone who knows some basic maneuvers will simply disengage, gain speed, go hight and you are dead. Slow with flaps down, congratulation. You can bail out already because you are dead.

 

Using flaps in fw190 is just bad. The reason some people tell you that you can and should is because they come from MP experience. They fly, get 8 kills or so (mostly vs noobs) and from time to time they die while flying like this. If you know you are in bad situation just go home, don't set yourself up for defensive flying because sooner or later you will get shot down, even if it will be bad luck. You can get lucky hit while doing scissors, because enemy is behind you. Maybe this whole flaps thing would work in 1vs1 but in real life or more realistic scenario you would just die, if not today then tomorrow.

 

Fw190 can turnfight but you should keep yours speed and flying so slow that you can extend flaps is bad.

 

Overall, if you fly to get kills then use them, if you fly to survive your missions (good for sp on iron mode) then don't.

Edited June 8, 2019 by InProgress

[Bremspropeller]

2 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

But this one.

 

He only says you'll have to use two hands on the stick in the 109 at high speed, because it'll wear you out very quickly (which is an issue on ALL warbirds).

He doesn't mention flaps, though.

 

On the 109, flaps were used sometimes by some pilots (IIRC Lipfert did mention this in his book - haven't finished it yet anyway).

In the 190, they weren't (I have NEVER heard/ read of any pilot who did), because the split flap design is almost useless at high speeds.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

2 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

He only says you'll have to use two hands on the stick in the 109 at high speed, because it'll wear you out very quickly (which is an issue on ALL warbirds).

He doesn't mention flaps, though.

 

Video interview translated

 

Interviewer: "How was it to shoot down a Mustang with a Ta or 190?

Reschke:"Well.. everyone had his own point of view, but to make it clear the mustang was good, you shouldn't underestamate it, it was fast it was maneuvable it was good, but it had one certain advantage over all our fighters, with the TA i had no dogfight with the mustang, saddly today i regret it that i can't compare it, but with the 109 or 190 i had many dogfights, the Mustang made it's first turn, the initial turn really fast, he was nearly behind you, therefore many pilots lost their minds and tried to dive and run away which pretty much killed them. But if you keep turnning you will get the Mustang, the old vets of us knew it all..

Interviewer: "With the 109?" 

Reschke:"Also with the 190, it was maybe a bit easier with the 190 than with the 109, because with the 109 you needed some muscles to turn with it, because those who had no became tired, you needed to pull even with both hands because of the big stick pressure. .... bla bla bla not important 

 

Ok I "pollute" the thread then.

 

I have NEVER mentioned they used flaps in turnfights only that they were turnfighting most of the time instead of the BnZ we see from people with much more ingame experience than the pilots back then and i said that you should use them ingame.

Edited June 8, 2019 by MeoW.Scharfi

[InProgress]

3 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

I have NEVER mentioned they used flaps in turnfights only that you should use them ingame

And the point is, you should't. The only way it could be used in in 1vs1 which is pretty unrealistic. Maybe on WoL or that 1vs1 servers.  But playing SP or TAW where people fly in groups? Don't use flaps, there is a reason why they did not use it in real life.

 

Also 99% of pilots were not aces. You can hear interviews from real aces where they and their wingmen did turn around. But most did not, like he said, many pilots just dived. This is how it looked like. In allied pilot's books you can often read that fw190 would attack from high and from the sun. Do one pass, shoot at them and simply run away. They did not want to get into dogfight. Just like infatry did not like to get into hand to hand combat.

 

Like i said before, depends what player wants to do. If you fly for kills and dogfight then yea, could work. If you want to survive even if that means no kills this mission then never use them.

[DD_Arthur]

So,  there you have it;  in real life flaps were only used on the '190 for takeoff and landing.  In Esports though - anything goes!

[Velxra]

Slow or turning works great for the 190
 

 

[Bremspropeller]

32 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

I have NEVER mentioned they used flaps in turnfights only that they were turnfighting most of the time instead of the BnZ we see from people with much more ingame experience than the pilots back then and i said that you should use them ingame.

 

It depends on what you label "turnfighting" and what you label "BnZ". In the real world, dogfights all played somewhere within the two extremes - most dogfights being over rather quickly after one pass and little turning going on. The classical duel 1v1 happened very seldomly.

Walter Krupinski once fought it out for 15 minutes with a soviet pilot and only managed to shoot him down when he had to fly home (presumably getting low on fuel).

This stood out for him, because it almost never happened.

 

BnZ should more appropriately be called "OPHA" (One Pass, Haul A..) in the online community, while turnfighting is a more nuanced thing - depending on how aggressively you turn and if you use vertical elements.

 

Whether the 190 has a chance in "turnfighting" all depends on whether you're staying within the sustained turn capability envelope, which isn't half bad in the 190, or whether you're going all instantaneous, thus throwing your money out of the window in a burning wheelbarrow.

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

.

Edited June 9, 2019 by CUJO_1970

[MeoW.Scharfi]

56 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

Slow or turning works great for the 190

 

So you are posting final moments caught as guncam of 190s and 109s to prove your point how well it turns in IL2?

 

Ok... 

Edited June 8, 2019 by MeoW.Scharfi

[JG27*PapaFly]

54 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Whether the 190 has a chance in "turnfighting" all depends on whether you're staying within the sustained turn capability envelope, which isn't half bad in the 190, or whether you're going all instantaneous, thus throwing your money out of the window in a burning wheelbarrow. 

It's not as if by deploying flaps to their first setting one automatically and irrevocably commits to "going all instantaneous" until the fight ends one way or another.

 

Air combat presents us with a myriad of different situations. Great pilots don't stick to dogmas, but rely on their brains and experience. Very often when I use flaps I do it for a very brief time, in order to boost my instantaneous turn rate to a point that will allow me to immediately kill or cripple my opponent. What's the better decision: 

a) Deploy flaps for a very short time, bag the kill and go home, or

b) Stick to the no-flaps doctrine, miss the kill opportunity, do extended turning at best sustained turn speed ( which is 300 kph IAS in the 190s, so far from high speed), and eventually die.

 

If I were to apply any doctrine to flying the 190s it would be this: never fly alone.

 

Yes I am free to deploy flaps if I see fit, but I always have my buddies next to me, ready to intervene at any moment.

 

[Bremspropeller]

4 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Air combat presents us with a myriad of different situations. Great pilots don't stick to dogmas, but rely on their brains and experience. Very often when I use flaps I do it for a very brief time, in order to boost my instantaneous turn rate to a point that will allow me to immediately kill or cripple my opponent. What's the better decision: 

a) Deploy flaps for a very short time, bag the kill and go home, or

b) Stick to the no-flaps doctrine, miss the kill opportunity, do extended turning at best sustained turn speed ( which is 300 kph IAS in the 190s, so far from high speed), and eventually die.

 

Good point about being mentally flexible.

On the other hand, though, if using flaps is all there is to the difference between making the kill and staying alive and being killed, the decision-making is the part that needs some adjustment, not the flap-setting

[MeoW.Scharfi]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

It depends on what you label "turnfighting" and what you label "BnZ". In the real world, dogfights all played somewhere within the two extremes - most dogfights being over rather quickly after one pass and little turning going on. The classical duel 1v1 happened very seldomly.

Walter Krupinski once fought it out for 15 minutes with a soviet pilot and only managed to shoot him down when he had to fly home (presumably getting low on fuel).

This stood out for him, because it almost never happened.

 

BnZ should more appropriately be called "OPHA" (One Pass, Haul A..) in the online community, while turnfighting is a more nuanced thing - depending on how aggressively you turn and if you use vertical elements.

 

Whether the 190 has a chance in "turnfighting" all depends on whether you're staying within the sustained turn capability envelope, which isn't half bad in the 190, or whether you're going all instantaneous, thus throwing your money out of the window in a burning wheelbarrow.

 

 

I repeat my Point again, against 1943 to 1944 planes you will have a tough time doing your attack and extend away tactic against planes that can easily catch up except the victim you just bounced without being able to defend yourself. Therefore you will be forced to do defensive flying and end up turnfighting OR they will follow your tips by NOT using flaps in the situations he need them and get shot down out of the skies... 

 

So again, my point i was writing above was ONCE YOU HAVE TO DEFEND YOURSELF IN THE 190 and NOT, let's start the dogfight with a turnfight.

 

I was giving the guy the trips he needed to be good in the 190 and not the 0815 ones you give him which would make him the kind of 190 flyer that can only kill by suprising his victims from low 6 and dying once something fast from 1944 catches up on him in speed without being able to defend himself.

[Bremspropeller]

I'm giving him tips on how to fly the airplane like the real one, and not how to use an exploit in the game.

[CUJO_1970]

This Spitfire was making a mockery of the FM this morning, using the flap exploit to the fullest extent. (the Spitfire benefits from this more than any aircraft by far)

 

Justice demanded that it be put down:

 

 

Predictably, a 20mm to his head had little effect. Drastic measures required me to apply a notch of flaps:

 

 

Just enough lead:

 

 

Flap popper's reign of shame comes to a virtual end and the dignity of the FM is safe (at least until  he re spawns)

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

1 minute ago, Rekt said:

 

He must have started his career as a gunner before going to Flight School. ?

 

 

???

[[CPT]Crunch]

High speed, gravity, and one notch of flap in a 190 will spin ones head in amazement how quick you can change direction without much speed loss.  Has to be brief and violent, cardinal rule is never slow down, using flaps there and your way behind the noggin curve.

[CrazyDuck]

On 6/8/2019 at 11:33 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

 

 

Ouch! Multiple 20mm and/or HMG hits in the engine, fuel tank and cockpit area should hurt as hell.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Would the stabiliser not make much difference here ?