Pe2 Gunner Super Powers

[Haza]

Gents,

 

I'm not here to start the whole accuracy debate regarding the PE-2 gunner.  However, having just watched a video where I was engaging a PE-2, the one thing that amazed me was how quickly the lower fuselage gunner was able to change positions (x3) through out the fuselage.  Indeed the other amazing ability was how the gunner was able to move the gun from either side of the fuselage within fractions of a second and was able to commence shooting immediately with the gun pointed in the exact location where I was! 

 

Therefore, before I raise this as an issue or get the PE-2 Gunner his own Marvel film, is it my recording or is the PE-2 fuselage gunner really Hammy from "Over The Hedge"?

 

Regards

 

H

 

[Feathered_IV]

46 minutes ago, Haza said:

Gents,

 

I'm not here to start the whole accuracy debate regarding the PE-2 gunner.  However, having just watched a video where I was engaging a PE-2, the one thing that amazed me was how quickly the lower fuselage gunner was able to change positions (x3) through out the fuselage.  Indeed the other amazing ability was how the gunner was able to move the gun from either side of the fuselage within fractions of a second and was able to commence shooting immediately with the gun pointed in the exact location where I was! 

 

Therefore, before I raise this as an issue or get the PE-2 Gunner his own Marvel film, is it my recording or is the PE-2 fuselage gunner really Hammy from "Over The Hedge"?

 

Regards

 

H

 

 

Please direct all complaints to:

1C Game Studios

Pavlov's House

Яussialand

 

 

[Haza]

Just now, Feathered_IV said:

 

Please direct all complaints to:

1C Game Studios

Pavlov's House

Яussialand

 

 

 

Is that for those who play MP?

[Finkeren]

2 hours ago, Haza said:

 

I'm not here to start the whole accuracy debate regarding the PE-2 gunner.

 

 

Pardon me, but that seems to be exactly what you are here to do. I'm not saying your point isn't valid, but what exactly are you contributing with this, that hasn't been said a thousand times over? 

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

I think the op’s point is that the bottom gunner (who also controls the waist guns) seemed to switch between the three positions with no delay...  as if there were three bottom/waist gunners....

 

where as when taking command of a turret usually takes a few second, especially moving it from one side of the aircraft to the other, to the OP it seems instant...  

 

 

[Finkeren]

21 minutes ago, spartan85 said:

I think the op’s point is that the bottom gunner (who also controls the waist guns) seemed to switch between the three positions with no delay...  as if there were three bottom/waist gunners....

 

where as when taking command of a turret usually takes a few second, especially moving it from one side of the aircraft to the other, to the OP it seems instant...  

 

 

Yes, and it's a point that has been brought up countless times. I'm not saying it's wrong, in fact I agree. 

 

But we should not pretend that we aren't retreading old paths here. 

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Ah ok..   besides I only attack in a slicing pattern so I never really have this issue

Well I mean technically if the bottom gunner used his feet for the belly gun, right arm for the port gun and left arm for the starboard side....   I’d say thats a pretty efficient gunner there

[hirondo]

19 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

Yes, and it's a point that has been brought up countless times. I'm not saying it's wrong, in fact I agree. 

 

But we should not pretend that we aren't retreading old paths here. 

...that has been brought up countless times and it has not been addressed yet. Not even mentioned by the developers. I do not understand that and it seems many other lovers of this simmulation do not understand it either.

[CUJO_1970]

I don't see any issue here, not sure why it keeps getting brought up all these years.

 

Just get in a deep knee bend, with googles, flight jacket and a parachute on, and look through a scope while pointing your gun through a small hole in the belly of a maneuvering airplane...

 

Like shooting fish in a barrel, basically.

[Gambit21]

I'm not here to talk about donuts, but how about those donuts? I like old fashioned glazed.

[RedKestrel]

3 minutes ago, hirondo said:

...that has been brought up countless times and it has not been addressed yet. Not even mentioned by the developers. I do not understand that and it seems many other lovers of this simmulation do not understand it either.

It hasn't been addressed (yet) because addressing it would be extremely tricky from an AI point of view. I'm pretty sure Jason addressed it in an interview at some point - its down to, how do you make the gunners behave realistically without adding a bunch more logic and computation that further strains the sim? How do you tweak the gunners so that fighter pilots thing its OK, but doesn't leave attacker and bomber pilots feeling even more vulnerable? 

Not to mention that some people's ideas of realistic gunner behaviour is a gunner that never hits you. 

The AI has been getting some incremental love over the past year and the last DD announced 'long awaited changes' to AI so its likely they're starting to dive more into the AI side of things again. Without a dedicated AI programmer they have to be careful with how they change things. Maybe we'll see some improvements in the next little while but its not an easy 'fix' and some people will never be happy anyway.
 

2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I'm not here to talk about donuts, but how about those donuts? I like old fashioned glazed.

Old fashioned glazed are OP. Creme-filled should be far superior and yet they are always disappointing!

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

What do you expect from heroes of USSR ?

[Diggun]

[hirondo]

4 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

It hasn't been addressed (yet) because addressing it would be extremely tricky from an AI point of view. I'm pretty sure Jason addressed it in an interview at some point - its down to, how do you make the gunners behave realistically without adding a bunch more logic and computation that further strains the sim? How do you tweak the gunners so that fighter pilots thing its OK, but doesn't leave attacker and bomber pilots feeling even more vulnerable? 

Not to mention that some people's ideas of realistic gunner behaviour is a gunner that never hits you. 

The AI has been getting some incremental love over the past year and the last DD announced 'long awaited changes' to AI so its likely they're starting to dive more into the AI side of things again. Without a dedicated AI programmer they have to be careful with how they change things. Maybe we'll see some improvements in the next little while but its not an easy 'fix' and some people will never be happy anyway.

 

Why run so much effort? Keep it simple. The Peshka gunners should behave like the gunners of all the other bombers in the sim A-20B, Ju 88, He 111, IL-2 etc. This recurring Peshka discussion would then stop immediately.

[56RAF_Roblex]

2 minutes ago, Rekt said:

 

Has anyone established that the Peshka gunner AI is in fact any different from other gunners' AI? How would one even do that?

 

I have assumed all along that it's the combination of the generally broken gunner AI plus the 12.7mm UB that make the Pe-2 deadly. I say this because I have been practicing against JU-88s and He-111s set to "Ace" all week and they have been stitching me constantly with 7.7mm fire...these would probably be instakills with the way the Peska's heavier gun is modeled in the sim. If that is wrong I would love to hear about it.

 

No it is all the same AI but people close their mind to that fact.    It is true though that perhaps the actual ergonomics of using different guns is not properly addressed yet.   

I will add one thing though... as a player in a gun position, shooting a climbing or level but lower target using the bottom gun of a PE2 *is* like shooting fish in a barrel so don't complain if you get killed ?  It is much easier than shooting someone on your dead six.      Getting killed by the AI in a lower gun (of a JU88, PE2 , HE11, A20 etc) while flashing past at 500kph and only visible for a fraction of a second is a different issue.

[RedKestrel]

44 minutes ago, hirondo said:

 

Why run so much effort? Keep it simple. The Peshka gunners should behave like the gunners of all the other bombers in the sim A-20B, Ju 88, He 111, IL-2 etc. This recurring Peshka discussion would then stop immediately.

You're right, of course. I humbly request that the Pe-2 gunners become just like this Bf-110 gunner.
 

 

[4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile]

7 hours ago, Finkeren said:

 

Pardon me, but that seems to be exactly what you are here to do. I'm not saying your point isn't valid, but what exactly are you contributing with this, that hasn't been said a thousand times over? 

Here we go again

[Gambit21]

8 hours ago, Diggun said:

 

This got a laugh out of me - and I think you’re right.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

3 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

You're right, of course. I humbly request that the Pe-2 gunners become just like this Bf-110 gunner.
 

 

I love how the 7 ton P-47 looses all speed and gets thrown about about by 8mm bullets

Edited May 24, 2019 by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal

[Haza]

Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

This got a laugh out of me - and I think you’re right.

 

I just assumed that Diggun was an Oompa Loompa and was drinking from Willie Wonka's hip-flask!

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Haza

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

56 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

I love how the 7 ton P-47 looses all speed and gets thrown about about by 8mm bullets

Ya!?  I was like, wtf?  This must have been a previous version when the 47 just came out??  

 

Ps,  that a Scharfi clip... ?

[Haza]

Just now, RedKestrel said:

You're right, of course. I humbly request that the Pe-2 gunners become just like this Bf-110 gunner.
 

 

 

Well at least the 110 gunner is just required to cover one firing position.  However, using the speed that the Pe-2 fuselage gunner can currently move, if they were employed in a 110, they would be able to pilot and rear gunner the 110 on their own. 

No doughnuts were harmed in the making of this post! 

[Velxra]

15 hours ago, meplanes1969 said:

They have very good eyesight as well,

one got me even as I was hidden in clouds in the evening gloom

 

That was your first mistake...

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Geronimo553

[Bilbo_Baggins]

21 minutes ago, meplanes1969 said:

Do AI gunners have a damage profile in this sim?

i have peppered them with gunfire to kingdom come.

thinking I have put the rear gunner out off action ( I get a nasty surprise when he shots back with Rambo gusto even with his plane in shreds )

it would be a good option with hud turned on where we get info on enemy AI health

example rear side gunner is wounded or enemy AI is out off action,be nice too have this option.

a sort off cheating option but none the less a option

 

The gunners are very hard to kill and react perfectly under tremendous volleys of fire. There are videos posted of this game with cannon shells exploding in gunners faces without them being hurt. It appears to be just as much a problem as the infamous gunner accuracy and auto-aim problems pervading the game. 

 

Regards 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Bilbo_Baggins

[JG27*Kornezov]

Pe 2 gunners had special training. No wonder they can switch seats instantly.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by JG27_Kornezov

[hirondo]

15 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

You're right, of course. I humbly request that the Pe-2 gunners become just like this Bf-110 gunner.
 

 

 

Was this pilot in the P-47 you? If so, then I'm sorry. A lucky shot of course. It’s a rare thing but it can happen. Against the Peshka gunners this is however the norm. Here are some examples:

https://gfycat.com/presentactivebrahmanbull

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98VHTeboNfs&feature=youtu.be

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2DtaB_iRuM

 

 

If you start a search on You Tube you will find dozens more. It’s not good for the flight simulator I consider the best.

[Velxra]

On 5/24/2019 at 2:56 PM, RedKestrel said:

You're right, of course. I humbly request that the Pe-2 gunners become just like this Bf-110 gunner.

 

 

For me the video highlights how easily wings fall off. Just a few 8mm rounds and off it goes. I’m really looking forward to refinements of the damage system. I like how parts fly off. But wings break far to easily.

 

Also sometimes both wings want to fall off. But if one wing has already fallen off then the second one remains magantized on even though it’s clearly detached.

[CountZero]

On 5/26/2019 at 10:50 AM, meplanes1969 said:

we have now been relegated to the complaints department ????

Beacose its just that, bias complain and nothing more based on ingnorance

 

fact is all gunners track targets to fast when set on high skill, and online you set them on high skill so bomber player has chance of atleast geting to target before he gets shoot down by many more attackers then bombers, as online you usealy have single bombers and not big formations.

 

In SP you have bombers set to lowest skill and you have then more realistic outcomes, and still deadly as AI bombers fly in group.

 

So all works as intended, mission maker has option to select what skill bombers will be, and depending on skill set outcomes will be differant.

 

Most complains come from online players and its normal as online bombers are set to highest skill, if they were set to lovest no one would be playing with bombers...

 

If attacks are planed well youll servive even attacking ace skill bombers, but most of time they are not... and random strange angle hits are not comon...

 

To me there is no problem that needs to be fixed, as mission maker is given skill options for bomber airplanes that in this game work as intended.

Edited May 27, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[WheelwrightPL]

Just attack Peshka's 6 o'clock in an inverted shallow dive while flying either 190A-5 U17 or 190F-8. Both of those planes are up-armored to take multiple hits from the ground. 

[Psyrion]

1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

Most complains come from online players and its normal as online bombers are set to highest skill, if they were set to lovest no one would be playing with bombers...

 

Straight up not true.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

 

[Willy__]

On 5/26/2019 at 5:50 AM, meplanes1969 said:

we have now been relegated to the complaints department ????

 

'cause its only complaints and not really an issue.... 

(russian logic)

 

[Yogiflight]

On 5/24/2019 at 4:13 PM, Gambit21 said:

I'm not here to talk about donuts, but how about those donuts? I like old fashioned glazed.

Without any data, pics or videos, this is only personal feelings.

[56RAF_Roblex]

Here is an instructional video from the other side.  Seven PE2s (ignore the video name) in close formation for mutual support.   Two fighters attack at 14:18 and do serious damage to four PE2s and leave them streaming black smoke with one burning in a single pass.  Forty five seconds later, only two of the seven PE2  reach the target and they both die over the target.

 

 

I do agree though that the gunners should not be able to switch positions so fast.

Edited June 25, 2019 by 56RAF_Roblex

[ITAF_LG965]

Anyway, just read the kill statistics of any server, to see how much the pe2 machine gunners are exaggeratedly good, or if you want, the others exaggeratedly poor ...
This has been happening since Oleg and the first Pe2 released, and I find it really boring ...
Greetings.

[gimpy117]

Vodka Operated CIWS. 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Honestly right now I avoid Il2 43 mod like the plague but I got good success fighting Peshka's lately without being obliterated by the gunner. 

 

But the Sturmoviks with a turret damnit. I flee them and Im flying a 190. Last time I came from his 6 but much lower, he never saw me and I scored huge hits on him then turned left and started a very steep climb and he managed to snipe my engine from 350 meters away, like not even 2 seconds after being showered by 20 mm shells out of nowhere. I still had enough engine power to make a pass from his 5 o'clock high while he was struggling to level flight and his gunner scored a head shot from 450m away. Lights out. 

 

Thing is, its not an isolated case right now against the 43 Sturmovik. Its turret is far more threatening than a full burst from a Mustang. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[SAS_Storebror]

4 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Thing is, its not an isolated case

 

Totally agree.

Now that you flew both the Sturmovik and the 190, you may be able to agree or disagree on another observation of mine in conjunction with such incidents:

 

Whether you fly fighters against AI Sturmoviks or Peshkas, their gunners always seem to have superpowers as if they were not of this world.

However if you fly a Sturmovik or Peshka yourself, as human player, your gunners more often than not seem to be... on strike? drunken? sleeping?

I've had endless encounters where an enemy fighter could attack me from dead six with no issues whatsoever, cause my gunner(s) decided to become pacifists.

And even if they decided to engage the attacking fighter aircraft, they shot wildly into void as if the order of the day was to unload all magazines without causing any collateral damage.

 

Yep, slightly exaggerated, but the core message is: AI gunners seem to be deadly. Gunners of human player planes not so much.

And that's surprising as officially there should be no difference whatsoever.

 

Mike

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

5 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

Totally agree.

Now that you flew both the Sturmovik and the 190, you may be able to agree or disagree on another observation of mine in conjunction with such incidents:

 

Whether you fly fighters against AI Sturmoviks or Peshkas, their gunners always seem to have superpowers as if they were not of this world.

However if you fly a Sturmovik or Peshka yourself, as human player, your gunners more often than not seem to be... on strike? drunken? sleeping?

I've had endless encounters where an enemy fighter could attack me from dead six with no issues whatsoever, cause my gunner(s) decided to become pacifists.

And even if they decided to engage the attacking fighter aircraft, they shot wildly into void as if the order of the day was to unload all magazines without causing any collateral damage.

 

Yep, slightly exaggerated, but the core message is: AI gunners seem to be deadly. Gunners of human player planes not so much.

And that's surprising as officially there should be no difference whatsoever.

 

Mike

 

I currently have a BF110 BOM career going on. Indeed the gunner behaves in a very odd way most of the times. Sometimes he starts shooting randomly when there's no target near. Sometimes he tries to shoot ground targets that are 1500 meters away. Sometimes, he takes naps during intense fights. Sometimes he will snipe MiG3s engines but that mostly when I level flight.

 

The AI of your gunner is the same than the AI gunner of an AI plane. However, the behaviours of an AI pilot are very different from a human pilot. It seems that the unpredictability of a human pilot influences the AI gunner. Sometimes they'll snipe, or sleep, or suffer from intense hallucinations and go trigger happy. 

[Yogiflight]

55 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Sometimes he starts shooting randomly when there's no target near. Sometimes he tries to shoot ground targets that are 1500 meters away.

This is the reason, why I always order my gunner to shoot at short distance. That makes him shoot at distances, which are realistic.

The quality of the gunner depends on the level of his pilot. If the pilot is ace level, the gunner will be, too. So in career mode it should depend on your rank. If you are flying in the rank of a Feldwebel, your gunner should be lowest level. Through your promotions his level should increase, too. I think this is what I read about it somewhere.

But I have no idea, how it is in MP.