Some technical discussion

[Crump]

 

What constitutes a number? It could mean that 25% of 109Gs were cleared to use 1.42 ata.

 

 

What constitutes "IF equipped".....

 

As I recall NzTyphoon, to you that meant the entire RAF Fighter Command.

 

Reality is not that simple.  Just because somebody writes a Technical Order does not mean the instant the ink is dry, all aircraft are now in compliance.

 

It looks like they phased it in just like 100 Octane and every other technical change to any aircraft.

 

If technical changes are required then those changes would be applied to a specific aircraft and the specific aircraft cleared for the rating.  New production aircraft would incorporate the design changes. Until all aircraft were modified, the Operating Instructions would reflect the restrictions as applicable to the general design.  They do track aircraft maintenance very very closely.

 

Take the P-51 unlocks.  P-51's experienced failures due to the inner doors deploying when hydraulic pressure was lost.  A modification was developed and approved by the engineers.  Like most Aviation Authorities in existence, there was a procedure to get these modifications out to the aircraft operators and maintainers in a timely fashion.  It is a safety issue both ways.  The modification fills a need, usually safety related and the process assures that modification does not create unforeseen safety issues.

 

 

 

Do you think that in September of 1944, All P-51's in service were suddenly modified the day the T.O. 01-60JE-9 was published? 

 

No, the planes were modified at the speed of logistics and training.  Nothing was done until the needed parts were available and the crews knew which screw to turn and how far to turn it.

 

That is why logistical planning for strategic assets like fuel is not a very good indicator of what is being used operationally.   It is a huge undertaking to change fuels and the logistical system will pre-loaded long before the operational change occurs.

 

In this case, we have solid operational evidence that Bf-109G2's were using 1.42ata alongside Bf-109G2's which were not cleared for using 1.42ata.  We cannot say "all Bf-109G2's" used 1.42ata until the operational instructions were changed to reflect that change.

 

It is the same as this document for 100 Octane:

 

 

The Cylinder Head Spigot depth modification was a service level modification.  Do you understand that?  The boost control could be modified by any mechanic but only on an engine with the cylinder head modifications. 

 

Service level is the highest level of maintenance.  In the United States Army, service level is Department of the Army.  It means the aircraft would have to return to one of two maintenance depots in the Continental United States.

 

The RAF service level facility was the Provisional Storage Units.  Aircraft repairs that were beyond the Civilian Repair Organization were handled at the PSU which filled a similar role as the depots in the United States.

  

Therefore, you had at some point, aircraft using 100 Octane operating alongside aircraft using 87 Octane fuel.  When all the specific aircraft were modified in the force, the Operating Instructions were changed to reflect the general type used 100 Octane in January of 1942.

 

Same as the Luftwaffe operating Bf-109G2 cleared for 1.42 ata alongside those not cleared to use it.

 

[NZTyphoon]

In this case, we have solid operational evidence that Bf-109G2's were using 1.42ata alongside Bf-109G2's which were not cleared for using 1.42ata.  We cannot say "all Bf-109G2's" used 1.42ata until the operational instructions were changed to reflect that change.

 

Same as the Luftwaffe operating Bf-109G2 cleared for 1.42 ata alongside those not cleared to use it.

 Having removed all the extraneous material from the long-winded lecture, it is good to see that Crump agrees with me; ie: there were some Bf 109Gs cleared  to use 1.42 ata while others continued to use 1.30 ata;  a likely scenario is that there were one or two test aircraft  in a staffel or gruppe cleared to use 1.42 ata to see whether the problems with the DB 605 had been solved. After a few months it was clear that there were still problems so the ban was reimposed.

[Crump]

 Having removed all the extraneous material from the long-winded lecture, it is good to see that Crump agrees with me; ie: there were some Bf 109Gs cleared  to use 1.42 ata while others continued to use 1.30 ata;  a likely scenario is that there were one or two test aircraft  in a staffel or gruppe cleared to use 1.42 ata to see whether the problems with the DB 605 had been solved. After a few months it was clear that there were still problems so the ban was reimposed.

 

And all the test aircraft were shot down and wound up in British Intelligence hands.....

 

Common sense and a normal distribution from statistical math says you are once again drawing a simplistic unlikely conclusion.

[MiloMorai]

All shot down? Some of them but others would have suffered engine failure.

 

Common sense would say so.

[Crump]

They might have suffered from a fear of heights and wound up in British Intelligence hands......

 

Common sense and a normal distribution from statistical math says you are drawing a simplistic unlikely conclusion.

[DD_Arthur]

Good lord!  This isn't a technical discussion. This is merely another willy-waving exercise carried over from the Banana Forum .

 

What on earth have 100 octane Spitfires got to do with the battle of Stalingrad?  Why can't you people do this by p.m?

 

Crump, after 574 posts on this forum do you actually own a copy of this game or is this just another opportunity to display your alleged expertise?

 

It's gettin' pretty boring nowdays. 

 

My apologies to Rama but honestly.......................................................................................

Edited March 20, 2014 by arthursmedley

[FlatSpinMan]

No, arthursmedley, you are entirely right. People who initiate and participate in these kinds of threads are in them for reasons beyond the general edification of the average flight simmer. This has become some bizarre internet truth hunt/points scoring exercise. As you suggest, if it is to be conducted at all, PM is the ideal place to do it. Perhaps the relevant parties could post a concise summary of any conclusions that might actually be of relevance to the wider community.

[MiloMorai]

Actually it (100 octane) is from before the banana board.

[NZTyphoon]

And all the test aircraft were shot down and wound up in British Intelligence hands.....

 

Common sense and a normal distribution from statistical math says you are once again drawing a simplistic unlikely conclusion.

Not that anything was said about all the test aircraft winding up in British hands - but at least Crump is recognising the possibility that there were only a small number of 1.42 ata test aircraft.