The Battle Of Kursk

[DD_Arthur]

13 hours ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

 

I wrote that myself. I’ve been studying the clean Wehrmacht myth for a few months now.

 

Indeed.  What conclusions have you drawn?

 

Genuinely interested btw.  

[Nocke]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmachtsausstellung

[Cybermat47]

On 6/26/2019 at 10:45 PM, DD_Arthur said:

 

Indeed.  What conclusions have you drawn?

 

Genuinely interested btw.  

 

In terms of the war guilt of the Wehrmacht?

 

Well, in the West, the Wehrmacht mostly conducted itself in the same manner as any other military, with their warcrimes there mainly being the execution of POWs (though there were racially charged massacres of Africans in the French Army). But in the East, they took part in numerous crimes against humanity against the ideological and racial enemies of Nazism. These crimes included rape and sexual slavery (much like Japan’s infamous “comfort women” and the systematic killing of Commisars, Jews, and Soviet Muslims (who were killed due to being circumcised and thus potentially disguised Jews). Much of this was either directly ordered or implicitly encouraged by the Wehrmacht’s leadership, both in the field and from high command.

 

There were members of the Wehrmacht who were anti-Nazi and innocent of warcrimes, and some who even saved Jews, but ultimately the Wehrmacht as an organisation was a major participant in the Holocaust.

[DD_Arthur]

3 hours ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

In terms of the war guilt of the Wehrmacht?

 

Er...no.  I'm familiar with what the German army did in the countries it invaded. 

 

I meant this 'myth of the clean wehrmacht' business itself.  I've never heard this term before.

 

 

 

 

[Finkeren]

50 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Er...no.  I'm familiar with what the German army did in the countries it invaded. 

 

I meant this 'myth of the clean wehrmacht' business itself.  I've never heard this term before.

 

It's a well known term amongst students and scholars of WW2, though it goes by many names, and the condition is shockingly common among wehraboos online (though not the majority I might add) 

 

The Wikipedia article gives an acceptable overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Wehrmacht

[JG1_Wittmann]

On 5/31/2019 at 7:27 AM, unreasonable said:

I agree with much of your conclusions, but it is hard to see how the Germans could have achieved anything decisive even if they had smashed into the centre of the salient. The problem for the Germans was that they had just enough divisions in good shape to either act as reserves, or to go for a strictly limited offensive like Citadel. 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 4:50 AM, Finkeren said:

Honestly, the more I read about Zitadelle, the less I understand the prominence it has gotten in popular history

There was nothing to be gained at this point  in the East.  This was a last gasp offensive, Germany's last large offensive operation in the east,  with perhaps the possibility of shaping how things proceeded on the eastern front.  Perhaps with enough losses to the Soviets, an end to the war.   The problem was that no amount of losses would have done that, the Soviets would have continued  and still eventually won.  The value of a human life in a communist country does not, and did not then hold the same value as elsewhere in the world.

 

The only possibility of a victory over the Soviet Union by Germany in WW2,   was not the taking of Moscow in 41, or any other reachable objective in 41.  It would not have been achieved by victory at Stalingrad, or any other campaign.

 

There are 3 things that could have given the chance at victory :

1) Germany is the first to develop and deploy an atomic bomb, and has alot more than 1 or 2,  and the US does not.

2) England is knocked out and occupied before Barbarossa,  preventing all the things that arose from not,  bombing,  Africa, etc.  Invading the Soviet Union while England was still in it was

utter lunacy.

3)After England was occupied and out of the war entirely, the supply stream from American factories to the Soviet Union had to be stopped.

 

# 1  in and of itself could have caused all combatants to sue for peace

#2 and # 3  achieved,  Germany would still have had to drive east of the Urals and knock out Soviet manufacturing,  or cause enough losses that the Soviets could no longer continue.  The Soviets had many more  to lose so a #'s game never favored Germany.  The initial  losses incurred on the Soviets in 41 would have had to continue in order for this to decide it.