Yak vs Bf.109 - Tactics

[71st_AH_XE9O]

This is a good read Gents ~S~

[A_S]

In respect to post #51 and the topic (Yak vs Bf109) with the exception, that in this case it was LaGG-3 vs Bf-109 F4 i recorded a random occuring fight on the BOS US Expert Test Server.

It was late night and only 2 pilots where present - Otherlank and me. Sure enough we met in the air whereas i started from a defensive position in the LaGG-3.

 

This is a classical example of two airframes with different strength (like climbrate, roll-rate, drop-rate, deceleration (bleed off ability), accelerations at diff. regimes, max speed, slowest speeds before stall, turn-radius and turn-rate abilities, max sustained rates and cornervelocities, G-loads, weapons, pilot-fatigues etc etc). The LaGG-3 is inferior in some of them, but superior in others.. same applies for the Bf-109 F4.

Whereas the LaGG-3 can "radius" better in 1-circle fights and also "rate" better in 2-cirlce fights, the Bf-109 F4 enjoys the upper hand in maximum speed and in the verticals or the "shallow" climbs - especially if "unloaded". This gives the Bf-109 F4 the potential "generalship" or dominance. Not to forget, that the Bf-109 F4 can bleed off rapidly for a tight turn and it also enjoy much better jaw authority if it comes to getting the guncross on target.

On the other hand the Bf-109 F4 can be very "nose heavy", especially if attacking downwind in adition with Gods Gs (or gravity). It will take the Messerschmitt a moment to get the nose back up from such a flight-path allowing the defender an overshoot or/and the "buying" of time.

 

Long story short, we both had to trade the same variables (speed, atlitute, angles and turningroom or distance) in the dogfight "equation". Adding in some of them and taking away in others if necessary and if we could, while considering the different weaknesses and strenght in different regimes in comparision as mentioned above.

One can clearly see, that it is possible for the LaGG-3 to take away turningroom and to deny nose-priority or an attack for the Bf-109 F4. And the fight started exaclty in this manner, but soon enough Otherlank realizes, that he has to change his tactics based on the strenght of his aircraft and therefore he draged me up to the - how i call it "angel dust" (or higher less air-denser altitutes).

The true airspeeds and the turningrooms generally increase at higher altitudes and to make matters worse.. my LaGG-3 will perform worse at high altitude as most russian airframes do.

Otherlank presented a great knowledge about this and he utilized it very quickly... he also fought very skilled and wise. We appreciated and saluted eachother afterwards.

 

While him doing so, one can clearly see that i had big problems to follow in the climbs even though i could secure the angles. He was still able to seperate and reset the fight from above once again to his like. All i could do was trying to deny him a good "entry" for a good firing solution or trying to seperate myself horizontally while building back up speed in order to equal the total energy (SP) of us both (trying to bring him down to my "level"). At one point where i even had a brief shot myself i think i hit him, but i am not sure. Regardless he was still able to maintain the fight. This exchange lasted a while untill i made a stuipid mistake in an attempt to make the bandit overshoot vertically where there was not much speed difference to do so and with the blee-off ability of the Bf-109 F4, sure enough i got badly hit and went up in smokes - but i was still able to control the craft gliding to the next possilbe runway in sight.

 

What happened next is probably one of the most ridicilous and hillarious endings i have ever encountered

 

Buttom line of the story. I think it IS possible to fight and to win in different or inferior airplanes ....

 

PS: Great flying Otherlank .. enjoyed it alot.

 

[Video] Wounded Animals Bite (watch in 1080HD)

 

http://youtu.be/_armg3ENFGM

Edited April 14, 2014 by A-S

[otherlank]

Believe it or not, I have the video from my prespective...uploading now

[A_S]

Awesome !!! Thanks

[otherlank]

Disclaimer - I am normally flying in the Lagg and this was probably my 3rd time flying the 109 online, so this may not exactly be representative of the skill of all the pro 109 drivers I frequently see.

 

Anyway, I had a lot of fun in this fight.  It took me a little while to realize I wasn't flying the Lagg anymore and to quit flying like I was in one.  I kept asking myself, "In the Lagg, what maneuvers do I have trouble with when I fly against 109s?"  Then I tried to do just that.

 

My impressions of the 109 are:

 

I LOVE the speed, climbing ability and acceleration.  I can't stand the low speed handling though so that's definitely a place I didn't want to be against a Lagg.  After getting used to the Russian guns, the 109s were dreadful to get used to.  The bullet velocity feels like I'm throwing a NERF into a headwind.  The amount of deflection needed to hit an enemy aircraft is much greater than with the Laggs.  The visibility out of the front certainly doesn't help.  I felt like I was shooting blind deflections constantly.

 

I was very impressed with A-S' ability to hang with the 109.  And after the last scene, I will no longer be extending him the courtesy of disengaging when he is damaged ;P

 

Edited April 14, 2014 by otherlank

[SR-F_Winger]

Disclaimer - I am normally flying in the Lagg and this was probably my 3rd time flying the 109 online, so this may not exactly be representative of the skill of all the pro 109 drivers I frequently see.

 

Anyway, I had a lot of fun in this fight.  It took me a little while to realize I wasn't flying the Lagg anymore and to quit flying like I was in one.  I kept asking myself, "In the Lagg, what maneuvers do I have trouble with when I fly against 109s?"  Then I tried to do just that.

 

My impressions of the 109 are:

 

I LOVE the speed, climbing ability and acceleration.  I can't stand the low speed handling though so that's definitely a place I didn't want to be against a Lagg.  After getting used to the Russian guns, the 109s were dreadful to get used to.  The bullet velocity feels like I'm throwing a NERF into a headwind.  The amount of deflection needed to hit an enemy aircraft is much greater than with the Laggs.  The visibility out of the front certainly doesn't help.  I felt like I was shooting blind deflections constantly.

 

I was very impressed with A-S' ability to hang with the 109.  And after the last scene, I will no longer be extending him the courtesy of disengaging when he is damaged ;P

 

Anyone a clue if this (if its not actually only a subjective feeling) has roots in real muzzle velocities of russian and german guns of the time?

Edited April 15, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Good link on comparing guns and their effectiveness: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[C-Bag]

thanks so much otherlank and A-S.

 

Also about the commentary and background. In this case each vid is worth way more than 1,000 words.

[Chuck_Owl]

Disclaimer - I am normally flying in the Lagg and this was probably my 3rd time flying the 109 online, so this may not exactly be representative of the skill of all the pro 109 drivers I frequently see.

 

Anyway, I had a lot of fun in this fight.  It took me a little while to realize I wasn't flying the Lagg anymore and to quit flying like I was in one.  I kept asking myself, "In the Lagg, what maneuvers do I have trouble with when I fly against 109s?"  Then I tried to do just that.

 

My impressions of the 109 are:

 

I LOVE the speed, climbing ability and acceleration.  I can't stand the low speed handling though so that's definitely a place I didn't want to be against a Lagg.  After getting used to the Russian guns, the 109s were dreadful to get used to.  The bullet velocity feels like I'm throwing a NERF into a headwind.  The amount of deflection needed to hit an enemy aircraft is much greater than with the Laggs.  The visibility out of the front certainly doesn't help.  I felt like I was shooting blind deflections constantly.

 

I was very impressed with A-S' ability to hang with the 109.  And after the last scene, I will no longer be extending him the courtesy of disengaging when he is damaged ;P

 

 

Yesterday, I saw a lot of 109 pilots trying to turn and burn Yaks low on the ground. I guess lots of blues learned this lesson the hard way: don't play the Yak's game if you value your (virtual) life.

Edited April 30, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[otherlank]

I immediately noticed the exact same thing. It seems that the habits built by flying the lagg have helped those of us moving into the better Yak, while the blue pilots were having a tougher time adjusting to the Gustav. Against Yaks, the G2 just cannot be flown the same way thr F4 previously could against Laggs.

 

I have a suspicion many blue fliers will return to the F4 eventually

[A_S]

I had a Lagg-3 vs Lagg-3 duell yesterday (both 30% fuel) .. accidently i pressed Yak-1 (i was tired lol) .. and realized, that i am flying the wrong plane.

Meanwhile i asked someone is TS "dogfight Yak vs Lagg, who has the better chances". I got the answer "Lagg, in almost all regimes". I thought "oh great" lets continue anyways.

Somehow i managed to fly differently and win the round anyways, but it was indeed interesting.

Edited April 30, 2014 by A-S

[ShamrockOneFive]

Anyone a clue if this (if its not actually only a subjective feeling) has roots in real muzzle velocities of russian and german guns of the time?

 

Probably...

 

MG 17 muzzle velocity is listed as 775 m/s while the ShKAS is listed as 870 m/s. The UBS heavy machine gun on the nose of the LaGG-3 has a muzzle velocity of 860 m/s.

 

As for cannons the MG151/20 is 725 m/s and the ShVAK is 750-775 m/s.

 

So yes the Russian machine guns and cannons are somewhat faster in muzzle velocity. The 20mm cannons should trade in effectiveness as the MG151/20, if it hits at long range, is more devastating thank to the thin walled Mine HE rounds while the ShVAK has more normal HE rounds and has less effect at range as the velocity drops.

[IVJG4-Knight]

While flying the 109 f and g i can't keep the nose down when flying over 660 Kmh or so. Is this because the compressibility has not been implemented yet ? 

[Panzerlang]

While flying the 109 f and g i can't keep the nose down when flying over 660 Kmh or so. Is this because the compressibility has not been implemented yet ? 

 

You need to adjust the stabiliser to help keep the nose down at high speed.

[JZG_Viking]

Yesterday, I saw a lot of 109 pilots trying to turn and burn Yaks low on the ground. I guess lots of blues learned this lesson the hard way: don't play the Yak's game if you value your (virtual) life.

 

When the 109 drops flaps, it can manoeuvre really well at really slow speeds (180-240kph) even in the vertical, it just keeps hanging on the prop forever. At these speeds it seems the Yak can't turn as tightly without stalling and is unable to follow. The 109 can exploit this by using 1-circle geometry into a scissors fight. It has worked really well so far for me. Of course if it's 1 x 109 vs 2-3 x Yak, it doesn't matter what you do.

[pixelshader]

I haven't had problems fighting the Yak-1 yet, I just follow the simple rule of run away and climb any time one gets equal energy with me.. so far my only deaths are from my own mistakes.

Edited April 30, 2014 by pixelshader

[Volkoff]

The Yak-1 is a really sweet fighter. I really like the Yak-1. I have certainly had some good initial experiences with it in multiplayer. Still, so long as many sim pilots on the VVS side use the Yak-1 in multiplayer, I may switch back to the LaGG-3. The Bf-109s are finally getting thinned out in multiplayer and I feel like it is a good thing to throw in a LaGG-3 or two, to give the least experienced BF-109 sim pilots a moderate challenge and also to provide me with a high hurdle, when I am dealing with inexperienced Axis sim pilots.

 

Now, there will be times when the Bf-109 pilots are so experienced or well organized that I will have to use my best ride. When the 109 sim pilots are guys and gals with many years of sim experience, I will fall back on the Yak-1 and for dang good reason. The worst 109 is still better than the Yak-1. Still, when there are many BF-109 newbies on the map, I am going to try to be a good sport and use a LaGG-3. The LaGG-3 is also going to help me get ready for using the LA-5 in multiplayer and I can use the practice. 

 

My initial impression of the Yak-1 vs 109 matchup: The Yak-1 isn't bad. Not as good as a 109, but not bad at all.

 

  MJ

Edited May 11, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[themski]

Also of note is the Yaks flaps, just need to give them one tap and they extent very fast giving you an insanely tight turn if you need it. Another tap will nearly instantly retract the flaps when you don't need it anymore. You certainly don't want to do it too long, but in a pinch it can be very handy.

 

The 109 can't do this due to its agonizingly slow manual flaps, and its not as easy in the LaGG due to having to hold down the button.

On another note, i have surprised a few Yak pilots by enabling 3-4 seconds of flaps in the 109 during dogfights. It doesn't create as much drag as the Yak, but still gives you an edge in a horizontal and especially vertical loop contest. Don't forget them!

[SR-F_Winger]

On another note, i have surprised a few Yak pilots by enabling 3-4 seconds of flaps in the 109 during dogfights. It doesn't create as much drag as the Yak, but still gives you an edge in a horizontal and especially vertical loop contest. Don't forget them!

PLEASE forget them! They currently (at least i hope its like that) just lack a proper damage model and using them in dogfights with airspeeds of several hundreds or kph is actually an exploit - for both sides! IMHO.

[Volkoff]

PLEASE forget them! They currently (at least i hope its like that) just lack a proper damage model and using them in dogfights with airspeeds of several hundreds or kph is actually an exploit - for both sides! IMHO.

+1 Yeah, Winger is giving good advice to players. In the past, I have used flaps at high speed. I can't imagine that we will be able to do so, without severe negative consequences, by the time that the sim is completed. The high speed flap thing looks like a temporary exploit. No matter how useful this exploit may seem, in the short run, it is a crutch that won't be there, one day, sooner or later.

 

Anyway, it is best not to pick up bad habits. I quit smoking cigarettes. I can break my addiction to high speed flapity flapity, too. If I can, anyone can. 

 

MJ

Edited May 12, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[SR-F_Winger]

+1 Yeah, Winger is giving good advice to players. In the past, I have used flaps at high speed. I can't imagine that we will be able to do so, without severe negative consequences, by the time that the sim is completed. The high speed flap thing looks like a temporary exploit. No matter how useful this exploit may seem, in the short run, it is a crutch that won't be there, one day, sooner or later.

 

Anyway, it is best not to pick up bad habits. I quit smoking cigarettes. I can break my addiction to high speed flapity flapity, too. If I can, anyone can. 

 

MJ

Noone can be blamed since there is nowhere a big sign that says "Do not use flaps at high speeds since its an exploit". Still its wrong. And i share your hope on it being a temporary "inconvenience". Thanks for your support on that Mikha

 

On the YAK-1 being a good matchup: I agree. Whenever i am getting dragged to low level furballing i end up dead 90% of the time:)

And its the proper punishment for that error.

Guess the distance will be even lower once the LA-5 hits multiplayer and proper BnZ will become more and more important.

Edited May 12, 2014 by VSG1_Winger

[black1]

Oil and water Radiator keys for the Yak? or does the wheel show no movement but key is working?   I have a Warthog is there a way to set a key bind or slider for these and know what settings they are? kinda confusing and need help thanks all.

[ACG_pezman]

Oil and water Radiator keys for the Yak? or does the wheel show no movement but key is working?   I have a Warthog is there a way to set a key bind or slider for these and know what settings they are? kinda confusing and need help thanks all.

Probably should have just started a new thread.

 

Anyway, I don't remember the default keys because I never used them.  You can find the settings under Engine Control or something like that.  They do bind to axis' also, so no worries there.  Just read the screen that pops up when you bind a key, it has all the instructions you need there. 

 

I believe the yak's controls would be under the standard Engine 1 Oil Radiator or the more general Oil Radiator.  However make sure to read which control you are binding.  Some are meant for key only entries while others are meant for axis or key.  The controls for keys are more specific in name, like: Oil Radiators vs Open Oil Radiator or Close Oil Radiator, etc...

 

\\//

[black1]

Yes, I understand now the control bindings, but, none of the visual movement of the said controls when pushed move, is this normal for the Yak, bug or me not doing something right?

 

 I believe I have set the controls properly but see no movement, have not setup my outside view cameras to see, will check.

[ACG_pezman]

Controls won't work in normal mode unless you take them off auto. They will work in expert though.

[RydnDirty]

All the talk about the Yak1 using flaps in combat... have you guys looked at the plane from the outside while dropping flaps ? They don't drop at all above very low speeds. I don't know the exact speed, maybe 200 or 250km/h. Much lower than you would ever do in combat.  The lever in the cockpit moves as if the flaps are dropping but they don't drop...  Any perceived advantage is likely placebo.

 

My friend and I tried dog fighting each other without shooting in109F4 and Yak1 on an empty server. We swapped planes and both had a go at each. We thought the 109 out runs, out turns, out climbs and out dives the Yak1 easily. The yak roll rate might be slightly better than the 109 at typical speeds.

 

It takes teamwork to win in the Yak1 against a decent 109F4 pilot.  Or you can bounce the 109 pilot but you better kill him or else you will only make him made before he kills you.

[ACG_pezman]

As a German pilot we get cocky in our speed, climb, and high speed performance.  We know not to get low and slow or to burn to much energy in a tight turn.  However there are exceptions to these rules and smart Russians know how to fake these "exceptions." 

 

Example:

 

I was about 1.2k above a Russian yak that zoomed up toward me.  At about 0.6k he began to run out of E and slowly began to flip his nose over.  This was it, a stalled out yak only 0.6k below and to the right of me, while I'm cruising at about 450-500kph.  No problem, I can pull a tight turn, burn off some E until about 320-350kph, which would after a short dive to get to the target, give me around 450kph when I was going in for the kill.  Everything was looking good until I started to get close to guns range. 

 

That damned yak just turned a little to tight for my bird which was going about 450kph then.  I could turn with him (after all, 450kph is a nice turning speed for the 190) but it would eat just enough E to prevent a perfectly safe exit zoom.  I gamble, pull harder, get the yak in my sight and fire.  No hits.  Speed + turn radius = too high deflection shot, all bullets went just behind him.  Oh shit.  Now I burned off my E a little too much (at about 350kph) so I can't zoom out safely.  I could run but we all know how that ends; long boring chase until the Russians give up ( I should have ran).  I decide that since I'm low in E, the Yak has to be as low or lower, so I will pull it straight up and stall him out, flip over onto him, then get an easy kill. 

 

At about 280kph going straight up I'm looking over my shoulder, watching this yak just float behind me.  Granted he was pretty much stationary at this point but so was I.  I was waiting for his nose to flop but it wouldn't.  200kph and he's got to be flopping right?  Nope.  Okay, full rudder against torque, work those ailerons, keep that nose straight up... 180kph, 170kph, 150kph... my plane is shaking like crazy but than damn Yak is right there, looking at me, little blinking lights on his nose.  130kph, 120kph, 100kph... HOW THE HELL IS HE STILL BACK THERE!!!!!  I have gobs more power and he's just stuck to my tail.  He scores some hits while floating back there, fuel tank hit, some control surfaces, nothing worthy of a bail out.  I can still get the kill as soon as he stalls.  I can absorb some hits.

 

Trails of white vapor are everywhere outside my cockpit as this Russian yak is just giving me everything he has.  Man, those nose mounted guns and cannon must sure be nice is a situation like this.  Bang, bang, bang, clunk.  He just scored more hits.  Nothing major but now I got some minor engine damage... it's ok, the aTa gauge and RPM gauge look perfectly normal, I can still ride this engine to it's max.  Now were in the ten's of kph, I think the last reading I remember before I couldn't keep the bird up anymore was about 062kph.  It's too late, that yak just floated behind me firing those center mounted guns that don't really need a convergence setting until I looked like Swiss cheese.  I got thick black smoke pouring out of my aircraft and the tachometer and ata are bouncing around like they are on a trampoline.  I'm done, stick a fork in me.

 

Summary: 
Russian aircraft, because of their wooden construction, can't dive as fast but can retain energy as long as the Germans in a high AOA zoom.  It's like throwing a balled up piece of paper and a rock together.  The rock is going to fall faster and retain it's E better, but if thrown straight up together... things get interesting.  While the rock will go higher and reach it's apex faster, at the top of the apex before gravity takes over, the balled up paper will float easier.  Staving off a stall as long as their German counterpart allowing them to chew up an enemy aircraft that thought it was home free.

 

More stuff happens after the apex that benefits the Russian but telling would hurt the German cause.  Either way, if a German pilot doesn't get the kill on their first attempt, a well versed Russian pilot can easily take a German.

 

TL;DR 
Yeah, it's much easier to get a kill as a German, but nothing feels as good as getting a kill as a Russian.  Every time I get shot down by a Russian AC I think to myself "well played."  I did something wrong, something stupid, and that magnificent Russian bastard just took full advantage and whooped my ass.  I'm in a damned Porsche and they are in a Vespa and just beat me in the quarter mile... not supposed to happen but it does.  I heard a fighter pilot describe a dogfight as "Flying your aircraft perfectly and hoping your not the first one to make a mistake."  Seems accurate.  A yak or lagg flown to perfection will stave off a 109 or 190.  All you do is jink before the German comes into gun's range and you leave him with a simple decision:  Loose speed and alt to get on this Russians ass to make a kill or move on.  If he doesn't choose move on you might as well put a tick on your kill count.

 

Really long post and I'm sorry. 

 

\\//

Edited March 29, 2015 by [JG2]volc0m