Yak vs Bf.109 - Tactics

[Chuck_Owl]

Good afternoon, folks.

As we all know, the two main fighters during the Battle of Stalingrad were the Yak-1 and the Bf.109. Not only because they're popular, schmexy to look at and fun to fly, but also because they had overall better performance. Each aircraft has distinct characteristics that forces the VVS and Luftwaffe pilots to use different tactics based on the capabilities of their respective aircraft. Of course, the skill of each individual pilot matters (and this topic is not that "kind" of contest, if you know what I mean), but some people are better than other at finding out how to get the most out of their machine. Knowing your aircraft's limits and flying close to these limits are the sign of an experienced pilot, but obviously, not all of us will start flying BoS from the same level. Some people have flown a few days, others a few months, and others from the very dark beginnings of flight sim History. Some eagle-eyed people are naturally gifted at flying, while others struggle from the very beginning and have a harder time progressing.

Lots of people often wonder: "But... but how can I be a good fighter pilot?" The answer can be complex at times, but general consensus is that pilot experience is predominant over machine performance. If you know your machine, you can concentrate on fighting instead of flying. Some things you can learn by reading about it somewhere, others just have to be tried by yourself to be understood.

I've recognized a couple of faces in the BoS forums and there are a couple of top-of-the-line pilots. These pilots, whether flying red or blue, display great skill and deep knowledge about air combat tactics and manoeuvres. Of course, tactics are not everything, but it's a good start for when the multiplayer beta goes live. I thought that sharing these thoughts about the tactics employed with the community might be an interesting idea as everyone could benefit from it.

This topic is created for this very purpose: to discuss your tactics, tips and tricks when flying either Yak or Bf.109.

 

Edited March 15, 2014 by 71st_Chuck

[Gort]

Best way is to sneak up on the bastard and assassinate him before he knows you are there. Bug out and celebrate his demise without a second thought.

 

Nasty business, this.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

No. It is classified.

Edited March 15, 2014 by JG62Gielow

[ShamrockOneFive]

It's going to take some time to really get to know both of these fighters in Battle of Stalingrad. Not much to offer just yet.

[AX2]

In multiplayer

For the BF 109 is easy, fly high, fly fast, dive shoot a plane , then go up and never turn more than 100º, I think 

For Lagg 3 and Yak 1 is esay too, they must wait  for 109 novice pilots , involved in  crazy  T&B dogfights at low altitude, And there you will have lots of fun .

Edited March 15, 2014 by Mustang

[II./JG27_Rich]

Next week we will see....I hope

[pixelshader]

I don't know much about the Yak-1, is it an agile plane?

 

Is this is the classic match of horizontal agility (yak) versus energy generation (109)?

 

In the multiplayer, will people fly with a wingman?

Edited March 15, 2014 by pixelshader

[Finkeren]

Most of my flights in the Yak this session have been marred by a combination of CTDs and me getting unlucky and recieving damage from AAA very early in the mission. Thus, I have only a couple of missions under my belt, where I got to dogfight in a completely undamaged Yak. The fact that I still managed to win every single fight against 109s, even with my Yak having holes in the wing or trailing smoke is testament to the fact, that the Yak-1 in BoS is extremely potent as a dogfighter and almost fully the equal of the Bf 109 F4.

 

With my limited experience, I'll try to do a run down of how the 2 fighters compare in BoS:

 

Top speed: A very sligth advantage to the 109 but only at higher altitudes. I actually feel the Yak might be just a tad too fast. In most instances it's just about a tie.

 

Acceleration: Somewhat to my surprise, the Yak accelerates very, very well, perhaps even better than the 109, and is very easy to get above 500 km/h at low level, I've never blacked out as much as I do in the Yak. It's only in the climb that the 109s greater power is evident. The 109 is now hampered by a strict interpretation of the power limits and will have to be flown at 85% throttle most of the time.

 

Climb rate: The 109 wins this hands down, it is faster both in a sustainable climb and zoom, but its advantage is nowhere near what it has against the LaGG. Against the AI I can just barely catch a 109 in a chandelle with the Yak, which tells me, that a human pilot would definately outperform me.

 

Dive speed: Both planes pick up speed fast in a dive and are comfortable to pull up. Both seem to handle high speeds well (which I don't think the Yak should) A tie.

 

Armament: By default both planes very similar weaponry: 2 fast firing rifle-caliber MGs and one fast firing 20mm autocannon. The Yak guns have something of an advantage in volume of fire (both have extremely high rates of fire) and longer firing time for the MGs, while the Mg 151 of the 109 has the powerful minengeschoss shell and a lot more ammunition. While the default Yak armament might be slightly more deadly, I'll give the advantage to the 109, because its field mod weapons options are a lot more varied, more useful and provides more power against all sorts of targets. 

 

Durability: Point goes to the Yak. Not only can it take almost as much punishment as the LaGG. It also retains performance better while damaged than the 109. I have yet to see any of the dreaded fuel fires in the Yak.

 

Cockpit layout: This one goes to the Yak. While the gauges are not as neatly arranged and a bit harder to see than in the 109, the FOV is so spectacular, that it's not even a close contest.

 

Ease of piloting (take off, landing, regular flight): The Bf 109 is vastly superior in most regards except landing. The Yak is a breeze to fly compared to the LaGG except for the tendency to nose over, but the Bf 109 is every pilots dream with its easy controls, high power and gentle characteristics.

 

Ease of piloting (combat): Both aircraft are very easy to handle in combat. The Bf 109 has a huge surplus of power, very forgiving low speed handling and automated engine management. On the other hand, the Yak has close to no vices in handling and stalls and spins even more gently than the 109, while not being very demanding engine management-wise. I'll call this one a tie.

 

Instant turn rate: Point goes to the Yak at all but the lowest speeds. It just turns very, very fast.

 

Sustained turn: Again the Yak wins handily. The 109 might be able to push it just a bit further at low speeds, but the Yak bleeds so little energy and can regain it so fast, that it will hardly ever be relevant. Only at very high altitudes does the balance shift in favor of the 109.

 

Overall agility: The Yak for some reson seems a bit sluggish in the rolling plane, but otherwise is incredibly agile at all speeds. The 109 is propably more agile at very low speeds, but quickly loses the edge above 250 km/h. Slight advantage to the Yak.

 

Snap maneuverability: Maybe I just need time with the Yak, but I find it very much easier to perform snap maneuvers in the 109.

 

Versatility: The Yak is a full blood dogfighter and not good for much else, its nose heaviness makes it rather dangerous to do low level strafing runs. The Bf 109 has greater versatility thanks to its variety of weaponry, but it only really excells as a superiority fighter. 

 

Conclusion: While there may be some minor issues with the FM of especially the 109, the overall balance between the two seems rather historically accurate. The Yak is superior at low levels and in a tight turn fight. An experienced 109 pilot can easily counter this in MP by dragging the fight up higher, using his superior power to stay on top of the fight and use his superior zoom climb to get out of trouble. In a emergency situation, a 109 pilot might be able to succesfully out-scissor a Yak. An inexperienced 109 pilot however, will lose to the Yak more often than not. I predict a lot of n00b whining from the Lufwaffe crowd once MP goes live. In the end, it will more likely be tactics and teamwork that carries the day in MP. Personally I'll propably be flying Yaks for the VVS mostly (just a personal preference) but if I played to win, I'd still go with the 109.

 

Those are my initial thoughts.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Finkeren

[Georgio]

Wait for trim to be implemented.

Join MP, fly around looking for 109 pilots adjusting their trim, 'upset' their carefully adjusted trim with liberal ventilation of their airframe....^^

[Nil]

Dive speed: Both planes pick up speed fast in a dive and are comfortable to pull up. Both seem to handle high speeds well (which I don't think the Yak should) A tie.

 

Wasn't the 109 known for it's really stiff controls during high speed.. almost impossible to pull up if you pass the divelimit. Or have I played to many sims, and watched to many bad documentaries?

In BoS It tends to raise itself if you let go of the stick!?

[DD_Arthur]

Best way is to sneak up on the bastard and assassinate him before he knows you are there. Bug out and celebrate his demise without a second thought.

 

Nasty business, this.

 

Exactly this! 

[Finkeren]

Wasn't the 109 known for it's really stiff controls during high speed.. almost impossible to pull up if you pass the divelimit. Or have I played to many sims, and watched to many bad documentaries?

In BoS It tends to raise itself if you let go of the stick!?

 

You're right, but I don't think compressability is implemented yet, though I seem to remember reading in the DD that it will be modelled.

[sop]

Always check 6 high and make sure you are not being fished when you see a juicy target.

[=RvE=Windmills]

Also of note is the Yaks flaps, just need to give them one tap and they extent very fast giving you an insanely tight turn if you need it. Another tap will nearly instantly retract the flaps when you don't need it anymore. You certainly don't want to do it too long, but in a pinch it can be very handy.

 

The 109 can't do this due to its agonizingly slow manual flaps, and its not as easy in the LaGG due to having to hold down the button.

Edited March 16, 2014 by iLOVEwindmills

[ShamrockOneFive]

The interesting bit right now is that in IL-2 1946 we have an earlier version of the Yak-1 with the VK-105P engine (I think it's the P... or maybe the PA?) but this Yak-1 is a later model with the VK-105PF and that extra power really seems to matter versus the Bf109F-4. I have been able to catch a Novice 109 in a climbing turn so long as I manage my speed appropriately. He should have dove away but instead went for the turn and thats where I got him. I feel like the Yak-1 Series 69 is a reasonable foil for the 109 having just enough power to weight and agility to be able to gain the edge at lower altitudes.

 

Certainly as tactical escort and as a hunter the Yak-1 can be competitive.

[Bladderburst]

109, stay high, pick your fight, dive and attack, climb back, NEVER NEVER NEVER get into turning fights. Don't get sucked into "finishing that plane to get the kill". A dangerous thing is that lagg3 and yak are hard to distinguish form far away so you might feel comfortable attacking an lagg, botch your attack and end up facing 2 angry yaks.

Those planes are quite matched so it's really the first bastard who does an error.

 

By the way, tips for not killing the yak engine are welcome.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Boussourir

[Finkeren]

Also of note is the Yaks flaps, just need to give them one tap and they extent very fast giving you an insanely tight turn if you need it. Another tap will nearly instantly retract the flaps when you don't need it anymore. You certainly don't want to do it too long, but in a pinch it can be very handy.

 

The 109 can't do this due to its agonizingly slow manual flaps, and its not as easy in the LaGG due to having to hold down the button.

Regarding flaps, it seems there aren't any limitations on their use at high airspeeds, yet.

 

The pneumatic system on the Yaks could drop flaps and gear quite fast (though for some reason the gear retracts extremely slowly on the Yak) but it didn't have enough power to deploy the flaps at higher airspeeds.

 

I only use flaps on the Yak for landing, not only because it is historically correct but also because I think the extreme angle of the flaps must bleed airspeed like crazy (haven't tested it though)

[BeastyBaiter]

I suspect the usual rules will apply tbh. 109's should use their climb rate advantage, trying to lure opponents into a circle climb and then dropping down on them when they lose all their speed. Yak's should try to force the 109's into heavy manuevering where they seem to hold an advantage. It will be spits vs 109's all over again, only the "spits" have red stars on them.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Going to test the Yak-1 today a bit more than one flight around the field. But by the looks of it devs STILL need to implement flap limits or we get the stupid Flap-o-rama again and again. The thing is SOME pilots did use them, but in the games ALL use them as there is no penalty or a very small one. I tested flap durability on Bf109F-4 and LAgG-3, could dive over 700km/h IAS without ANY damage to them 

 

 Back to the Yak. It should NEVER be able to follow a Bf109F-4 or later, in a steep high dive without it's wings ripping off. Even later mark Yaks had problems with high speed dives, also the Yak-3. Nevertheless it is a dangerous opponent if you play it's game and begin to turnfight. The durability should be a lot less than in LagG-3, look at the Yak-1 diorama Sokol1 posted. The structure is flimsy, lightness has it's sacrifice. To kill a Yak fast aim for the wings where fuel is or engine/pilot. And be fast, Yak is not able in any circumstances to catch a Bf109F-4 in level flight at any altitude. Well, if it is done right that is Bf109F-4 pilots, be very careful

[SR-F_Winger]

if the power limits for the 109 get fixed everything is fine. If not. Crap!

[Matt]

The Yak-1 is about 20-35 km/h faster than the 109, depending on altitude. The 109 accelerates slightly faster too and climbs much better.

 

The Yak is the way more stable gun platform though, but who knows, the 109 might see an improvement in that area aswell. I prefer the machineguns of the Yak to those of the 109, but the 109 has almost twice the ammo load for the cannon, which completely nullifies the slight advantage that the Yak might have with the Shkas. And of course, the 109 can take the wing cannons, if it needs more firepower. The pair of the rockets on the Yak could be a good compromise between performance loss and additional firepower, when it's used against bombers.

 

I'm not sure about the turn rate. The Yak might have an advantage there at low altitude, but i doubt it turns better at higher altitude, especially in a sustained turn and even if it would, the 109 can easily avoid such a turnfight.

 

Comparing the dive makes no real sense, because the damage is not modelled yet.

 

Landing seems to be easier in the Yak to me, as long as you adjusted to the nose-heaviness of the Yak and be a bit careful with the brakes.

 

Of course the work load in the Yak is also a bit of a challenge by itself, because to get the most out of your plane, you definately have to constantly check the temperature gauges (which are positioned very low) and adjust the radiators. Also unless you use slider on your throttle(-quadrant), knowing the current setting of the radiators is also not that easy, because of the wheel type controls are not giving any visual feedback, as opposed to the levers of the LaGG-3 for instance. Speed difference between fully opened and fully closed radiators can be about 30 km/h. And to add to that, you need to change the supercharger and adjust the RPM and throttle seperately.

 

Overall, the Yak-1 is much better than the LaGG-3. But it will still be challenging to beat the 109.

[JimmyGiro]

It is as evolution, in that it reflects the environment, or the server settings and mission objectives.

 

If you are cautious, you will live longer, but learn slower, and have a limited experience. Whereas if you take risks, and get into many fights, you will learn faster, and understand more.

 

'Enactment' type servers, will favour the cautious, who are apt to fly by formula; such as Yak turn and burn, and 109 boom and zoom. Whereas 'fight' servers, will benefit the risk takers, who treat the multi-spawn environment for the 'sand-pit' of experimentation, and skill honing, that those types of server are all about; so turn fight in 109s, and boom and zoom in Yaks, just to find the limits of each.

 

And when flying offline, against the AI, practice your gunnery by single shots, so that you can fine tune your brain to exact deflection shooting. Strings of lead will not be precise enough, as you will not know if it was the first rounds or the last, that hit the target.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 The funny thing is that Yak-1 SHOULD be slower than Bf109F-4 and later marks, at ANY altitude. Even the Klimov VK-105PF had limitations and could not be run 100%+ all day and night. The strongest assets Yak had against Bf109 were the roll rate and faster initial turn at higher speeds. From what I've read the Yak-1 was not superior to Bf109F-4 in turning, they were more or less equal as Bf109F had better slow speed handling due the slats. I am not very happy with the picture so far that the Bf109F-4 engine blows at "within specs" settings and VK-105PF has no problems whatsoever. Not asking for an "all day max power" game, but get the times and stuff right.

 

 Flying the Yak-1 is easy due it's good control responses. And way better rudder feel than in Bf109F-4, even the surface area of the Yak's rudder is bigger. Landing is easy and so is take-off. Taxiing can be a bit tricky due the tendency to nose over with liberal use of brakes. Guns have minimal dispersion, if any, even you keep the trigger down until ammo expended. Overheating not an issue even with radiators set to almost closed position, keep oil temp below 100'C and you're good to go. Energy bleed very low in turns, still have my doubts about that but as FM and DM are still WIP: no comments.

 

 So the Yak will bring a challenge to the plate for Bf109F pilots and even more so if the wonky engine limitations are to stay.

[WindyCityZeke]

Good stuff so far, thanks to everyone for their input.  Just a quick question on shooting and aiming.  What do you guys focus your eyes on? The crosshairs or the target (enemy AC)?

[Matt]

The Yak-1 is about 20-35 km/h faster than the 109, depending on altitude.

 

That's of course a typo. The Yak is slower than the 109. But i only noticed the mistake after the 15 minute post-edit-deadline.

[JimmyGiro]

"What do you guys focus your eyes on? The crosshairs or the target (enemy AC)?"

 

The pen or the paper; the ball or the bat? Clearly they both have to be considered simultaneously, for aim at moving and distant targets is a skill of synchronization in time and space.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Ran a "quick" test on Yak-1 s.69. Took 100% fuel and ammo, no unlocks. Took off and firewalled the throttle, gauge showing 104, and kept maximum 2700rpm at all times. Radiator 60%, oil radiator around 50-70% open. Landed 45min later with 17% fuel and NO damage or overheat whatsoever. Max speed achieved in level flight 547km/h. Do your own conclusions. LagG-3 S.29 next...

[Finkeren]

S!

 

Ran a "quick" test on Yak-1 s.69. Took 100% fuel and ammo, no unlocks. Took off and firewalled the throttle, gauge showing 104, and kept maximum 2700rpm at all times. Radiator 60%, oil radiator around 50-70% open. Landed 45min later with 17% fuel and NO damage or overheat whatsoever. Max speed achieved in level flight 547km/h. Do your own conclusions. LagG-3 S.29 next...

What can I say? Soviet engineering at its best

 

Seriously though. Good to see people hard at work testing. Seems like engine limitations aren't correctly implemented for the Yak, the same way they were absent from the 109 until recently.

[Matt]

S!

 

 Ran a "quick" test on Yak-1 s.69. Took 100% fuel and ammo, no unlocks. Took off and firewalled the throttle, gauge showing 104, and kept maximum 2700rpm at all times. Radiator 60%, oil radiator around 50-70% open. Landed 45min later with 17% fuel and NO damage or overheat whatsoever. Max speed achieved in level flight 547km/h. Do your own conclusions. LagG-3 S.29 next...

 

No reason to test the LaGG, because the devs already stated, that it has no engine limitations, because the engine has no overload mode.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4680-developer-diary-part-56/page-2?do=findComment&comment=95615

 

Since the Yak shares the same engine, i wouldn't have expected the Yaks engine to fail during your test.

 

My conclusion would be, that the engine limitations of the 109 are not finalized yet (there's nothing wrong with the Yaks and LaGGs engine behaviour imho).

 

Anyway, this is currently being discussed in other topics.

[Uriah]

109, stay high, pick your fight, dive and attack, climb back, NEVER NEVER NEVER get into turning fights.

And that is the nub of the issue for a flight combat sim.  I can fly all day and stay at 20,000 feet and never find anyone to fight.  And then If I am 'too' high and dive on an opponent I find my aim is not good enough to get in a good burst on the target.  So I fly up again.  And what about doing your duty as a fighter pilot in protecting the bombers?  If you are too high above by the time you get a shot on the attackers they have had their chance of shooting up the bombers.  So when you say high, just how high should I be above the opponent? 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 WIP so back to testing

[Georgio]

It's more a question of threat; if the attacking fighters know you're 3k above hem and able to swoop down they're mind won't be 100% on taking down the bombers. But saying that you need to balance your attacks with losing too might height advantage. A good fighter will turn under your attack forcing you to either terminally steepen your dive or force you to break off the attack and zoom for height.

Either way, they can then quickly attack the bombers before you can get back in position.

Personally I like to stay just slightly above and to one side of the bombers and follow attacking fighters in so they get toasted from two sides. Risky I know but that's just my preference,

 

And that is the nub of the issue for a flight combat sim.  I can fly all day and stay at 20,000 feet and never find anyone to fight.  And then If I am 'too' high and dive on an opponent I find my aim is not good enough to get in a good burst on the target.  So I fly up again.  And what about doing your duty as a fighter pilot in protecting the bombers?  If you are too high above by the time you get a shot on the attackers they have had their chance of shooting up the bombers.  So when you say high, just how high should I be above the opponent?

 

[Bladderburst]

And that is the nub of the issue for a flight combat sim.  I can fly all day and stay at 20,000 feet and never find anyone to fight.  And then If I am 'too' high and dive on an opponent I find my aim is not good enough to get in a good burst on the target.  So I fly up again.  And what about doing your duty as a fighter pilot in protecting the bombers?  If you are too high above by the time you get a shot on the attackers they have had their chance of shooting up the bombers.  So when you say high, just how high should I be above the opponent? 

Sure for escort you have a problem, but then again you can be reasonable and just stay 1000 meters above the combat zone. Escort duty, I hate. It's boring and you always loose all your energy just staying with your bombers, then some idiot comes in and gets all shot up by himself attacking the bombers all wrong from 6 o'clock. If you're lucky you get to finish him before your #3.

 

However for interception, you can often pick off the bombers from above and ignore the fighters for the first attacks. The ultimate example of doing this was in the TA152 career of IL2:1946. That plane has so much energy, you literally choose who dies and then you can disengage at will. Frankly when I have the choice I leave the fighters alone or I shoot one up pretty bad before concentrating on the bombers so that the escort is somewhat overwhelmed. I don't care about kills so when the fighter looses oil I'm happy, he won't be much trouble while I eat up his bombers. When you're patient and above you can position yourself for frontal attacks on the bombers also, this requires you to take your time, a thing which most players don't do.

 

Some real life tactics will never apply in a sim however, as an example, I have red about 2 planes attacks on bombers where they come from 6 above or level, one fighter before the other, first fighter disengages breaking hard left or right pretty close without firing, the gunners track this one while the remaining attacks the now defenseless bomber from very close.

 

So anyway to get back on topic: 109 stay high and fast, dive and attack, don't turn, disengage by climbing when you can. If your energy is low, dive away and return to base. Climb not too steeply, in a wide circle does the trick if the enemy is not about to shoot you up.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Boussourir

[IVJG4-Knight]

The yak 1 is inferior in rate of climb at all altitudes to the 109 f.The 109 should be a little faster in straight flight at medium to high altitude(at low altitude[1000-2000 ] the yak might be equal in speed of a little faster).A yak should not be able to keep up in a dive with a 109.

Regarding the flaps on the yak 1.I don't thing that in real life they would have gave any advantage in a turn fight because they should cause more drag than lift(so i did not use them in the game).But i easely outurned the 109 in the dogfight mission so everybody can do well in a turn without them.

 

The yak pilot should set up energy traps .And the 109 should be careful not to get to low on energy.

[sop]

The yak 1 is inferior in rate of climb at all altitudes to the 109 f.

Umm no

Edited March 17, 2014 by sop

[Karost]

IMO.

 

for Boom & Zoom BF109F4 is on upper hand from take advantage in auto mixture when Zoom up and Boom faster with high wing load.

 

 

but  let  BF109  turning with Yak-1 on the deck is not a good idea.

[C-Bag]

I'm somewhat confused by all the minutiae of speculation about supposed spec's. In reading "Luftwaffe War Diaries" by Cajus Bekker the propaganda the Nazi's were putting out included spec's on their aircraft. There was a period before the war where Messerschmitt and Heinkel were trying to own the speed record. They both used an DB 601 ARJ that could put 2,100 hp for short bursts, just long enough to get the record and then was junk. Heinkel was trying to get the contract for the frontline fighter away from Messerschmitt and the Nazi's were trying to scare the allies with their prowess/records.

 

I was also watching a U2oob vid, something like Spitfire vs Bf 109 and there was two pilots from each side. And both the German pilots remarked how hard the 109 was to fly. Basically they made it sound like the Spit could be handled much better by a low time pilot and the 109 needed a lot of experience to fly. It could turn, but it was not forgiving if you stepped too far over the line the wrong way.

 

I've also run across accounts that when everything was working with the Yak-1 it was every bit as good as the the 109F-4, but where the Russians lacked big time was training.

 

So props to the Dev's for wading through this shroud of time and somehow digging up how these planes are supposed to fly. They all have a character unto themselves and I'm enjoying getting to know each one. So far the Yak-1 has lived up to my expectations.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Rama
removed polemical part

[IVJG4-Knight]

Umm no

The Yak-1 was better than Bf 109E but inferior to Bf 109F  - its main opponent - in rate of climb at all altitudes

 

got the information from wikipedia and i think it's from this book:

Gordon, Yefim and Dmitri Khazanov. Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War, Volume One.

 

Even the devs stated in the live stream that the yak 1 is inferiour in climb.

 

Ps ': next time post some info  and not : uhh no. If you have info please post it. Nothing is set in stone. I could be wrong.

Edited March 20, 2014 by IVJG4-Knight

[Dave]

 

Armament: By default both planes very similar weaponry: 2 fast firing rifle-caliber MGs and one fast firing 20mm autocannon. The Yak guns have something of an advantage in volume of fire (both have extremely high rates of fire) and longer firing time for the MGs, while the Mg 151 of the 109 has the powerful minengeschoss shell and a lot more ammunition. While the default Yak armament might be slightly more deadly, I'll give the advantage to the 109, because its field mod weapons options are a lot more varied, more useful and provides more power against all sorts of targets. 

 

Durability: Point goes to the Yak. Not only can it take almost as much punishment as the LaGG. It also retains performance better while damaged than the 109. I have yet to see any of the dreaded fuel fires in the Yak.

 

Sustained turn: Again the Yak wins handily. The 109 might be able to push it just a bit further at low speeds, but the Yak bleeds so little energy and can regain it so fast, that it will hardly ever be relevant. Only at very high altitudes does the balance shift in favor of the 109.

 

Overall agility: The Yak for some reson seems a bit sluggish in the rolling plane, but otherwise is incredibly agile at all speeds. The 109 is propably more agile at very low speeds, but quickly loses the edge above 250 km/h. Slight advantage to the Yak.

 

Snap maneuverability: Maybe I just need time with the Yak, but I find it very much easier to perform snap maneuvers in the 109.

 

Conclusion: While there may be some minor issues with the FM of especially the 109, the overall balance between the two seems rather historically accurate. The Yak is superior at low levels and in a tight turn fight. An experienced 109 pilot can easily counter this in MP by dragging the fight up higher, using his superior power to stay on top of the fight and use his superior zoom climb to get out of trouble. In a emergency situation, a 109 pilot might be able to succesfully out-scissor a Yak. An inexperienced 109 pilot however, will lose to the Yak more often than not. I predict a lot of n00b whining from the Lufwaffe crowd once MP goes live. In the end, it will more likely be tactics and teamwork that carries the day in MP. Personally I'll propably be flying Yaks for the VVS mostly (just a personal preference) but if I played to win, I'd still go with the 109.

 

Those are my initial thoughts.

I haven't had the chance to fly the Yak yet, either in game or reality, so I'll have to rely upon anecdotal historical reports.

 

When it comes to game fidelity I'd agree with most of this pretty closely except ...

 

I'd give the armament advantage to the Yak for improved weight distribution, and weight and concentration of fire. The weapon field mods for the 109F are of zero value in air-to-air where their huge added outboard mass are a major liability to roll and turn performance. Widely used field mods for the Yak even removed the machine guns - so improving crew effectiveness that it must have really improved roll rate and power and wing loading even further. No such mods are available for the 109.

 

I'd say the Yak had more than a slight advantage in agility too - as long as you stay above corner speed the 109 low speed handling is moot. The only real advantage the 109 has here is in being more forgiving of sloppy handling particularly near stall speed.

 

When it comes to instantaneous roll rate the Yak should roll faster based on construction alone. Its mass is all concentrated near the centerline. The ailerons are well outboard and more than adequate in overcoming the relatively low inertial mass of their larger and higher lift wing area.

 

When considering instantaneous and sustained turn rates, at low altitude the 109 should have initial turn performance similar to the Yak but better sustained turn performance, indicating based upon your experience that the Yak should possibly be bleeding more energy in turns than is modelled. And while the Yak performed best at lower altitudes, its manoeuvrability advantage over the 109 actually widened with altitude above 10000' - improving from neutral at ~9000' to decisively better at ~16000' although few engagements would occur at these altitudes due to the focus on protecting the IL-2.

 

The Yak durability is questionable also. It could definitely take a beating but construction quality was generally pretty poor.

This is an area I'd like to see receive more attention by release time - the combat realities which detracted from the ideal performance of aircraft taken from their plans alone. A consideration should be the relative limits of the construction methods, build quality and materials used. It is fun to see what aircraft would have flown like if they were blueprinted and timber didn't flex and warp, but in reality the German oil supplies were becoming quite poor (one major reason for the Caucasus thrust in the first place) and Russian engine and airframe build quality was very inconsistent but generally poor due to the constructors lack of experience with wood laminates and the difficult construction environments. It would be a nice touch if things like high speed Yak dives produced the kinds of failures that happened in practice. As I said I haven't had the chance to fly the Yak yet - does the in-game carbureted engine suffer fuel cut with even modest negative G? Are the common governor failures modelled - OK that might be a little too detrimental to gaming pleasure.

 

But the point of this topic was to discuss tactics wasn't it. Sorry. And what the model does is infinitely more important than what anyone thinks it should do. 

 

As you say, it will be tactics and element cooperation that carry the day.

 

The best tactic is to get as much time as possible in your own, and your opponent's, aircraft. Learn what his best move would be in a situation and what you should avoid doing. Fly within the region of your envelope that is - if possible - outside his, or at least where he is weak. 

 

In the 109, avoid any kind of horizontal turn fight like the plague. But that doesn't mean a solid diet of swooping high deflection gun passes.

When it comes to scissoring a 109 against a Yak - I'll do whenever I can - rolling that is. This is where energy management is key and the power and slats will make a difference. In the 109 I also like the zoom climb and highly oblique turns at the merge. Generally avoid nose to nose turns in the 109 unless you can steal a lot of pre-merge separation and/or exploit the egg to improve turn rate and radius. All your advantages are in using the vertical.

 

More important than most of this to virtual survival though is quickly recognising when you're losing and bugging out at the right time on your own terms if possible. After the "unseen attacker", more pilots die from pushing a hopeless situation than just about anything else. Setting up to disengage is just as important as to engage.

 

Just realised how long, preachy and boring this post is. Oops.

[Mags]

Not boring, Dave, not boring at all.

I love those elobarations on tactics people talking about here.