Flak Explosion Sound Needs to be Louder and Buffet the plane

[gx007]

There were several instances this past weekend where the flak was REALLY close, but the sound didn't match its close proximity. The sound should be far louder, especially since the explosion seemed within 40 meters of the plane. Sorry I didn't get screen shots. Will try next week.

 

Also, the plane should get rocked a little I would think. 

 

Air burst video of 155mm 

 

 

 

What do you think?

[arjisme]

Dunno. How loud were those bursts in reality over the roar of an engine and prop practically sitting in your lap? Add in wind noise and if the flak is beside or behind you, I would bet you wouldn't hear much unless it actually hit you. But, like I said, I dunno. :-)

[4Shades]

And how much 155mm flak was used in Stalingrad? My guess is none.

 

There would have been lots of 80mm and below. I reckon you would have heard it, but it would have to have been very close for the sound to be significant over the engine noise and to penetrate headphones etc.

[gx007]

Right about 155mm probably not present at BoS. I was using it as an example.

 

Link shows 1 pound bomb or grenade at 191 decibel. 

 

http://audioloungesound.com/blog/2011/12/sound-pressure-level-decibel-table/

 

Fireworks are air bursts and quite loud close to the source.

 

http://listverse.com/2007/11/30/top-10-loudest-noises/

I reckon you would have heard it, but it would have to have been very close for the sound to be significant over the engine noise and to penetrate headphones etc.

 

Exactly. I've had flak very close, not as loud as I suspect it should be, imo. 

 

It's been years since I've been at the firing range (US Army). Of course, I'm hearing explosions 100s of meters away (40mm grenade launcher). Maybe someone with an arty background can shed more light.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I'm with the OP.

 

It doesn't really matter how loud it was in real life, this is a sim/game, close flak explosions should have an opportunity to make you jump or wince, if you're not expecting it.  real flak might do that,  even if it's not that loud, so to convey that fact without the real threat of death or maiming then the only option open to developers is noise so I say bring it on.  If you don't know what I'm on about then listen to "O fortuna", I was listening to it in the car, along with my sister, while driving down the motorway, so there was some background noise.  I couldn't quiet hear the soft bits so I turned it up, still couldn't hear it so I turned it up some more.  I, along with my sister, just about jumped out of our seats when the loud bit came on, we just sat, shocked and grinning at each other.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdIpoE2LEps

[JtD]

I guess it will be loud enough when it hits. No arcade sound effects for me, please.

[=LD=INCYP3R]

I think the sealing of those old canopies wasn't that tight, so my conclusion is that the high airpressure change from such a close flak explosion might have at least been felt as a shaking of the plane, the torso of the pilot and aswell as a pretty loud db change vs the engine/airstream sound. And additionally i think, that the plane youre sitting in is a hollow object whose cavitys are linked to each other, similar to a percussion instrument or a car. Now imagine sitting in such a hollow object and something hitting the outer side of it. Have you ever experienced a tiny stone hitting the windshield of your car while driving at higher speeds? Well i did and i can tell you that crack sound is fuckin loud compared to the size of that small object which hit you.

 

I don't know if my thoughts are heading the right way, but at least its my opinion. So perhaps you should crank up the volume of those sounds

[Bladderburst]

I prefer if it sounds like it does in reality.

If you plan to make the effects hollywoodian, I request a Ben Afleck pilot model.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Not much footage to show the sound from in side the cockpit, but I do like the new flak in TF 4.3 (not yet released) particularly the way it follows an aircraft.  I'm not suggesting it's perfect, or indeed imperfect, but it might be food for thought for BoS.

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3923571/Team_Fusion_A_couple_of_new_ef#Post3923571

 

 

I prefer if it sounds like it does in reality.

If you plan to make the effects hollywoodian, I request a Ben Afleck pilot model.

 

 

Flak should startle you or make you jump, when it first happens, especially close by.  Flak was as much a physiological weapon, why not reflect that in the game, is that not also realistic ?  If the only way developers have of conveying the power of flak is through sound effects, then let them, maybe they should have a test of various flak sounds during the early access to see what is preferred. 

 

Would it not be more fun to be suddenly startled by an accurate volley of flak explosions rather than than just saying to yourself  "Oh! There's some flak puffs, I'll lazily fly around to avoid it, ho hum" ?  If you're entering somewhere where there is likely to be flak would it not be better to be sitting, tense, on the edge of you're seat, buttocks clenched, nervously waiting for the first explosions so that you don't jump with surprise ?

[JtD]

I'm sure it wasn't the sound the AAA made the crews of actual WW2 aircraft were afraid of. If you don't appreciate your virtual life like they did their real life, I guess you're experience will be different from theirs.

[arjisme]

Flak does startle you in RoF.  If it hits close, you "feel" it as the whole plane is jarred -- up, right, left, in some unexpected direction according to where it burst.  It could do the same in BoS.  The startle in real life is probably part of feeling it (if it was very close), hearing it (if it was very, very close) and the very real fear of losing your life it flak should happen to hit you.  That last element isn't easily recreated in a game when you can hit refly, but flying with a policy of Dead is Dead is a good way to add similar "investment" to your flight time.

 

I will say, in BoS thus far, when I see a flak burst nearby in my line of sight, I does startle me.  If it occurs behind me, however, I might miss the fact that it was fired at all.  I am not convinced that is unrealistic.

[FuriousMeow]

It would be more convincing finding quotes and publishing those quotes from pilots during WWII regarding their experiences with anti-aircraft fire rather than what has been posted so far.

[Bladderburst]

Flak should startle you or make you jump, when it first happens, especially close by.  Flak was as much a physiological weapon, why not reflect that in the game, is that not also realistic ?  If the only way developers have of conveying the power of flak is through sound effects, then let them, maybe they should have a test of various flak sounds during the early access to see what is preferred. 

 

Would it not be more fun to be suddenly startled by an accurate volley of flak explosions rather than than just saying to yourself  "Oh! There's some flak puffs, I'll lazily fly around to avoid it, ho hum" ?  If you're entering somewhere where there is likely to be flak would it not be better to be sitting, tense, on the edge of you're seat, buttocks clenched, nervously waiting for the first explosions so that you don't jump with surprise ?

 

Have you played the game? If you are not scared of flak in the state it is right now I don't know what will scare you. It is VERY dangerous and flying lazily will get you killed. You're not in a Uboat, you won't get tossed around like that.

 

Speaking of which I am reading black cross red star right now. From what's in there... flak is accurate in the game. For instance when they write about the fieseler storch that got shot down along with the plans for operation blau, they're writing about it like it was natural that once the plane got over the front alone that it would be shot down very fast.

[arjisme]

It would be more convincing finding quotes and publishing those quotes from pilots during WWII regarding their experiences with anti-aircraft fire rather than what has been posted so far.

 

Sure. that will always be better than than "I feel" or "I think."  If you have any, please post them.

[Bladderburst]

By the way the original video has nothing in common with WWII guns.

 

[gx007]

It would be more convincing finding quotes and publishing those quotes from pilots during WWII regarding their experiences with anti-aircraft fire rather than what has been posted so far.

 

^ agree

 

I too am not seeking hollywood effects. 

Edited March 13, 2014 by gx007

[johncage]

I'm with the OP.

 

It doesn't really matter how loud it was in real life, this is a sim/game, close flak explosions should have an opportunity to make you jump or wince, if you're not expecting it.  real flak might do that,  even if it's not that loud, so to convey that fact without the real threat of death or maiming then the only option open to developers is noise so I say bring it on.  If you don't know what I'm on about then listen to "O fortuna", I was listening to it in the car, along with my sister, while driving down the motorway, so there was some background noise.  I couldn't quiet hear the soft bits so I turned it up, still couldn't hear it so I turned it up some more.  I, along with my sister, just about jumped out of our seats when the loud bit came on, we just sat, shocked and grinning at each other.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdIpoE2LEps

maybe they should also include michael bay explosions and random loud noises to catch you off guard, since apparently you have no interest in preserving realism.

Edited March 13, 2014 by johncage

[Charlo-VR]

Flak does startle you in RoF.  If it hits close, you "feel" it as the whole plane is jarred -- up, right, left, in some unexpected direction according to where it burst.  It could do the same in BoS.  The startle in real life is probably part of feeling it (if it was very close), hearing it (if it was very, very close) and the very real fear of losing your life it flak should happen to hit you.  That last element isn't easily recreated in a game when you can hit refly, but flying with a policy of Dead is Dead is a good way to add similar "investment" to your flight time.

 

I will say, in BoS thus far, when I see a flak burst nearby in my line of sight, I does startle me.  If it occurs behind me, however, I might miss the fact that it was fired at all.  I am not convinced that is unrealistic.

 

Since I fly with a Buttkicker Gamer, I've been quite startled by AA in ROF, almost falling out of my chair.  I've not yet experienced that in BoS, though I have been slightly surprised by some very close hits.  And I've quickly learned to respect the AA gunners in BoS.

 

If there are documented cases of flak rocking planes and startling pilots in WWII pilot/gunner memoirs or reports, then I would expect that to be added into BoS.  

 

Charlo

[HagarTheHorrible]

You all seem to be forgetting, this is a game, it's supposed to be fun.  Apart from sniper A.I flak, which everyone moans about, flak is often seen as a bit of a non event.  I think everyone is in agreement that it should be restricted to it's real life limitations, ranges, types, traverse rates etc.  Graphics are often simply a matter of taste limited by what is possible without hogging computational resources.  Sound however is far more subjective and it is the only way the developers have of getting across the dread of flak, without making it overly accurate.  you have to ask yourself what you prefer:  ineffective individual AA that possible most reflects reality,  sniper AA that makes up in accuracy what it loses in other respects such as volume  and concentrated battery fire etc, that generally just pisses everyone off, or something else.  For my money I would prefer to not have sniper AA but at the same time be apprehensive of approaching targets or known flak concentrations.  The only way I can see that being done is through noise.  Flak doesn't always have to be overly loud exploding nearby would be much more fun if it is unexpected and close up because you have been flying straight and level for too long.  Approaching targets or flying through possible flak belts should make you jumpy and apprehensive, because that is the reality not "will I be hit, won't I be hit, Good grief that's so effin unrealisticly accurate what an immersion killer" .   Again would it not be more fun attacking a target and wondering " when are they going to notice me, are they good, will it be accurate, what type, how heavy ?".  I would prefer the apprehension of approaching flak without it being more deadly than absolutely necessary.

 

To sum up, what would you prefer (and don't simply say realistic, because you will never convey what flak is in a game with no real danger or limited computational resources).  Would you prefer AA that is too accurate to make up for lack of numbers and psychological effect ?  Would you prefer it to be pretty and useless ? Or would you prefer it to look good, realistic (barrage, constant point etc), be realisticly effective, but also make you apprehensive because close explosions, while ineffective, might make you jump in shock or surprise, in other words not as effective as sniper flak but never the less still having an effect, if only on your nerves or digestive system ?

 

By the way, it's only a discussion point, for debating, nothing more.  I think the best course of events is for the developers to try out various possibilities during early access and see what is most popular.

 

Oh ! and just in case I forget, that is a great flak information video, thank you.

Edited March 13, 2014 by HagarTheHorrible

[JtD]

If you start appreciating your virtual life, you'll start to worry about AAA. Try completing 100 combat missions with enemy contact (preferably ground attack missions) without getting shot down. I've done that a couple of times in Il-2:1946. I can tell you AAA is very scary there, even though it is very inaccurate and hardly loud. It's particularly scary once you've completed 90 missions and try to survive the last 10. In my case, I've gone long ways just to avoid single AAA guns, let alone batteries. I don't need exaggerated bangs to make it any more scary. If, of course, you only take off to die in one way or the other, AAA will never really matter to you.

[4Shades]

 

You all seem to be forgetting, this is a game, it's supposed to be fun.

 

Not everyone thinks high-volume sounds and bright flashes = more fun. It is a matter of taste, I expect. Like some others here, I get fun out of sim-style immersion. But I do recognize other people like other aspects.

[Bladderburst]

Hagar, I'd rather stay away from flak because it's dangerous than avoiding it because of the scary sound it makes. Anyway after the 456th time will you still be scared by a loud sound?

If you want to have the game adapt to your playing style so that you survive 90% times without changing anything to your way of doing things, then triple A games are right there for you. They give you bang for the bucks, heroic pathos, the feeling that you can win a war by yourself and you will basically become good at it just by sitting through them. These games have their combat shaped by the gamer's habits. All hard bits are left out and in no way the player can be killed by not doing something wrong. They make fat kids dream they are super soldiers who fight the enemy in close quarters and never die. They even reward fidelity, not skill, by giving old timers special skills that will make them tougher than newcomers.

Simulators it's the other way around. You have to learn something from it. And what you call sniper AAA seems to be right there in terms of realism. You can sit all day and moan about it, ask it to be toned down, in the meantime ask for a cheap scare on a weapon that is not effective anymore and keep on doing exactly the same thing over and over again. Or you can try to learn how to deal with it and eventually have better odds.

It took me 6 months to be any good at DCS BS.

[arjisme]

Well said, Boussourir!

[JtD]

Looking at what gets the OH!'s and AH!'s it's clearly a gaming heavy forum. About a 90-10 split.

[Bladderburst]

Yes it's a game.

But it's not an, an rpg or a shooter. It's a simulator, that's why I want to play it when I play it. When I want to play a triple A I play GTA or skyrim or whatever. The point here is not making the game so accessible that anybody can be Hartman in a few hours.

It's like asking paradox interactive to make Hearts of Iron more like Starcraft because management is harder and because it is a game.

[=LD=INCYP3R]

Back to topic

 

This is a quote out of the book "D-Day"

 

 

 

Here is one from "Bomber Pilot: A Memoir of World War II"

 

 

 

One more from "D-Day Bombers - The Stories of Allied Heavy Bombers During the Invasion of..."

 

 

 

last but not least "Above the Clouds - Memoirs of A B-26 Marauder Pilot"

 

 

 

 

 

I hope this helps to be more objective towards our realistic expectations.

 

 

S!

[arjisme]

Nice info, INCYP3R.  Those rocks against the body sounds would have been from the shrapnel hitting the actual airplane.  Also, note these anecdotes were from bomber/transport crews, which might be slightly different from a fighter experience in that the engines were a bit more removed from most bomber crew members as compared to an engine being directly in front and practically in your lap that the single-engine pilot would experience.

[Sokol1]

You guys are strange, actually (in game) one hear his cannon shells hitting the enemy planes at close range (remember another game...) for some are "WOW!", but when one ask for hear FLAK burst near it's "arcade", "Hollywood", "unrealistic"...

 

Sokol1

[Bladderburst]

Never said anything beside realism.

Never complained about the shells or approved them. Seriously the sound team of this game and ROF are geniuses, so I'm far from complaining.

[arjisme]

You guys are strange, actually (in game) one hear his cannon shells hitting the enemy planes at close range (remember another game...) for some are "WOW!", but when one ask for hear FLAK burst near it's "arcade", "Hollywood", "unrealistic"...

 

Sokol1

 

False delimma.  As one who thinks flak sounds as proposed might be "unrealistic", I also think hearing cannon shell hits on another plane are also "unrealistic."  For that matter, hearing machine gun hits on your own plane are a bit dubious too.

[=LD=INCYP3R]

*irony off*

 

[=LD=INCYP3R]

I just found this german guncamera footage. Watch from 4:30 to hear the flak explosions compared to gunfire and even german radio transmissions. I find its pretty damn loud compared to the gunfire and engine sound. What do you think?

 

 

Edited March 15, 2014 by =LD=INCYP3R

[FuriousMeow]

Gun cam footage with audio is - well they didn't have microphones to record sound with gun cams so clearly the sound is dubbed in after. So, that is all hollywood effects.

[=LD=INCYP3R]

Gun cam footage with audio is - well they didn't have microphones to record sound with gun cams so clearly the sound is dubbed in after. So, that is all hollywood effects.

 

Yes, i think you're right about this one.

 

 

Here is another quote where a bombercrew described their encounter with flak:

 

 

 

 

 

I find it truly impressive, that a bomb loaded Lancaster was thrown from side to side by those near explosions. I think this is also a clear argument for the strong air pressure which hit the plane and than the pilots eardrum. Well but i think this might also be hollywood - of course they used silenced shells to fulfill and respect regional sound limitations and protect wildlife privacy.

 

Oh and perhaps we should also consider decreasing airpressure in higher altitudes (about half the pressure is measured at about 5500 m compared to sea level at certain weather conditions) and therefore a wider air molecule seperation resulting in lower sound-pressure from the same exploding energy...

 

 

S!

 

 

 

Edit: To be more specific about what i'm exactly talkin' .... its the close explosions. I think those exploding farther away would fade out pretty quick compared to the cockpit noise.

Edited March 15, 2014 by =LD=INCYP3R

[FuriousMeow]

You presented one piece of slightly historical evidence that was dubbed over with audio and then provided a fully wholly piece of fiction. That except is from this book: http://www.authorhouse.co.uk/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?Book=364521, its not a historical recolection it is completely fabricated.

Edited March 15, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Bladderburst]

I don't remember reading anywhere that flak threw people around.

[=LD=INCYP3R]

You presented one piece of slightly historical evidence that was dubbed over with audio and then provided a fully wholly piece of fiction. That except is from this book: http://www.authorhouse.co.uk/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?Book=364521, its not a historical recolection it is completely fabricated.

 

 

Yes, I think my last quotation happened to be part of a historically rather far relative to the real WW2 experience, but at least i tried to present something constructive. If you dislike the origin of my last quotations than consider those above. What about them?

 

 

To be honest I wouldn't really dislike flak being quiet in terms of explosion sound, but i'd love to hear something if it lands a direct hit on my plane be it the shell itself or the shrapnel tearing my wing apart. Those sounds are being described in my first quotations.

[FuriousMeow]

I'm not going to denigrate you, flak sounds should just be accurate. They shouldn't jolt an aircraft up 20ft, they shouldn't sound like someone just exploded dynamite next to you, they should sound like they did. Same with all of the sounds from weapons firing to wind to everything. The hollywood effects should be left to that genre, or the games that replicate that type of atmosphere (War Thunder or World of Warplanes). That's it.

 

Many times pilots returned to base not knowing that they had been shot by the bombers they were attacking, or that their plane was damaged by the flak they flew through. All of the accounts I have read was that it was harmless black puffs unless it was a direct hit, and that was USAAF B-17/B-24 personnel remembering those times.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I'm not going to denigrate you, flak sounds should just be accurate. They shouldn't jolt an aircraft up 20ft, they shouldn't sound like someone just exploded dynamite next to you, they should sound like they did. Same with all of the sounds from weapons firing to wind to everything. The hollywood effects should be left to that genre, or the games that replicate that type of atmosphere (War Thunder or World of Warplanes). That's it.

 

Many times pilots returned to base not knowing that they had been shot by the bombers they were attacking, or that their plane was damaged by the flak they flew through. All of the accounts I have read was that it was harmless black puffs unless it was a direct hit, and that was USAAF B-17/B-24 personnel remembering those times.

 

 

You are denigrating him Furious.  You keep shooting down anything he has to suggest but at no time come up with anything yourself to support your own opinions.  Nobody here knows what it sounded, or felt like, to be shot at by flak.  The nae's are just as vague about what it sounded like, other than some obscure references to the general pathetic contributions of Hollywood and that because it's Hollywood it's obviously wrong.  Rather than rubbishing anything he has to say why not add to the forums knowledge base by looking for quotes or references by those who did actually experience having to fly through flak..

 

As for Hollywood, sure they are trying to dramatize the scene, maybe even over egg it, but they are also trying to convey the drama and danger for people who aren't themselves in danger, in many ways a game developers job is not dissimilar.  One of the reasons , I'm sure, many of us play combat sims, is for the drama, rather than the just technical procedure, if not we would probably be quite happy tootling around in FSX all day and every day.   Give the developers room for artistic license where it isn't criticle and there is no definite right or wrong, just opinions by people who don't really know.  I just hope that sound will be a modable entity in BoS, unlike RoF so that everyone can be happy.

 

"The dull crack of the explosion was quickly followed by a bang as the fragment of metal went through the tail fin"  "So to did the sound of shrapnel hitting the fuselage and wings, like someone rapidly running a stick along some iron railings"  both from We fought at Arnhem.

 

"The flak continued so close that we could hear the shells exploding and pieces of shrapnel hitting the bottom of the plane. To this day when I'm driving my car and a stone hits the bottom, I shiver since the sound of it still reminds me of that mission."  Hell from Heaven

 

What it sounds like to be in the middle of a 130mm artillery barrage:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IUvcdKGD-FM

 

Not strictly relevant but fascinating none the less:

 

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/automatic-aiming-cannon-could-hit-invisible-aircraft/

Edited March 16, 2014 by HagarTheHorrible

[Sokol1]

The hollywood effects should be left

And some existing tuned down...

 

Sokol1