Tell me how to have flown this fight better #1

[Rattlesnake]

Fight starts out quite well in terms of both energy and and position. An already slower bandit must both turn and dive to defend, increasing my energy advantage even more. But then things go sideways. How could I have changed the geometry flown to better maintain advantage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhc_qGMpfDA&feature=youtu.be

Edited April 28, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[Garven]

Should have refused engagement all together as you didn't have enough of an energy advantage at the very beginning.  Looks like you should tried to have made a run for it after missing your shots at the 24 second mark rather than go vertical and and let him catch you at a low energy state with no ability to avoid  his nose.

[Rattlesnake]

1 minute ago, Garven said:

Should have refused engagement all together as you didn't have enough of an energy advantage at the very beginning. 

Note: There was a preliminary dive. We're co-alt when the film cuts in but the Spad's ASI is pegged.

 

11 minutes ago, Garven said:

 

 

[Garven]

1 minute ago, Rattlesnake said:

Note: There was a preliminary dive. We're co-alt when the film cuts in but the Spad's ASI is pegged.

Yeah, but it does you no good when your out of position (not high and behind).  Maybe I should have stated that you weren't in a good enough position prior to engagement.  Notice he went nose low if anything you should have applied pressure right there in the merge and not have gone vertical as he was able to get behind your 3-9 line and give you a hard angle.  In the end you were not in position to use your energy effectively.

[Rattlesnake]

25 minutes ago, Garven said:

  Notice he went nose low if anything you should have applied pressure right there in the merge

Expand on "apply pressure" please.

EDIT: Does this mean "should have turned hard for his six" on the remerge or what?

Edited April 28, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[Garven]

The moment you saw him go nose low you should have either simply put your nose on him started shooting or you might have been able to turn onto his six, but I'm not sure of the later option.

[No.23_Starling]

Hey buddy. The DVII is the Spad’s worst nightmare, even if it’s below you. Due to the excellent engine in the F (nobody will fly the non F now it is out) if you engage without overwhelming energy they will be co-alt or prop hanging in no time. 

 

I would not have taken the shot and instead faked an attack and smoothly pulled up to try and force a turn to get them to burn energy. On the next pass they’ll hopefully be slower and you’ll be able to turn into them. Of course they could then still go nose-low; in that circumstance pull up again smoothly. I remember having 20m long fights with Ace Rimmer which carried on in this way until one of us hit the other’s fuel tank and ran home, usually without a kill.

 

My advice is to completely avoid Dviis unless you have 500m of height advantage. It’ll frustrate you both but at least you won’t die and maybe the next time you see them you’ll get the bounce.

[J5_Gamecock]

I'm inclined to agree with Waggaz. It looks to me like you tried to force the shot @ 0:25.  Better to stay high and keep over the top till you have a real advantage IMO.

[US103_Baer]

Feel if you don't cripple a D7f in the first pass then better get out of there. Even more so in FC. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I'd say you didn't have enough vertical separation to begin with. I like to have at least 500M in a Spad - that way there's a chance of a high speed dive escape if necessary.

From the start of the video you're nosing down a bit whereas I think you should have been nosing up at that point.

That said you did get a shot at him, but not long enough to do damage by the look of it.

From where you were at that point I think escape was the only viable option. There wasn't enough energy disparity for you to go up again, as you will have noticed !

 

In a 1 vs 1 the Spads 2 options for success are :

1) High vertical dive attack with a pull-up in enough time to avoid the prop hang.

2) Maximum speed single pass attack with focus on immediate extension.

 

Executing #1 above takes a bit of discipline, especially having to do it repeatedly.

I usually blow the alt adv pretty quickly.. but I've seen it done !

The secret I think is patience - it's prioritising position over getting a shot in every dive.

 

Salute !

Edited April 29, 2019 by Zooropa_Fly

[BMA_Hellbender]

Ah, look at us all armchair experts critiquing this humble man's technique. The truth is: you weren't flying the plane wrong, you were flying the wrong plane.

 

There's definitely a misconception going around that the SPAD is any good at altitude. It isn't. It has raw power at sea level and decent enough climb, but it weighs too much and doesn't have good engine compression ratio above 2000m. You do want to climb as high as you can, that is true, but only so you can dive on something 1000m below and use that excellent dive. Even so, attempting to stay in a fight that's anywhere above sea level is almost guaranteed suicide, as the 220hp Hispano-Suiza V8 and your straight wings need that thick air to perform at their best. The SPAD is an American muscle car, whereas the Fokker D.VIIF is a turbocharged Porsche.

 

In a Camel with this kind of moderate altitude advantage you'd have made minced meat of a D.VIIF, even at 3000m. You might even have stood a better chance in a Dolphin, considering the technique you were using -- though a rotary engine is far more suited for high altitude engagements, the Dolphin's smaller 200hp V8, lighter airframe and wing dihedral allow it to stay in an angles fight at that altitude, provided you don't burn your advantage (which you didn't).

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[Garven]

1 hour ago, J5_Hellbender said:

but it weighs too much

Wieghs less than Albatross DVa, Fokker DVII, Dolphin, SE5a, and Pfalz D3a.

[Guest deleted@83466]

2 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

Ah, look at us all armchair experts critiquing this humble man's technique. The truth is: you weren't flying the plane wrong, you were flying the wrong plane.

 

 

When a man posts a video of a dogfight in a thread titled "How could I have flown this better?", it is asking for critique of his flight, is it not?

 

 

[Rattlesnake]

9 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

When a man posts a video of a dogfight in a thread titled "How could I have flown this better?", it is asking for critique of his flight, is it not?

 

 

Absolutely correct. J5 it’s cool man.

13 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

From the start of the video you're nosing down a bit whereas I think you should have been nosing up at that point.

That said you did get a shot at him, but not long enough to do damage by the look of it.

From where you were at that point I think escape was the only viable option. There wasn't enough energy disparity for you to go up again, as you will have noticed !

 

No hits. It was a perfect out of plane jink. It just didn’t reduce his energy state as much as I thought.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[Rattlesnake]

10 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

The truth is: you weren't flying the plane wrong, you were flying the wrong plane.

 

 

1. I believe this fight began in the neighborhood of 1000 meters, and got lower. 

2. The Spad has pretty close to the best low alt power-to-weight ratio out of the FC planeset (only the DVIIF risking his engine by opening the alt throttle has more down low has more IIRC) and the best dive afaik. If it can’t successfully fulfill the role of a proper bnz energy fighter  it is hard to imagine what plane can do so.

[Rattlesnake]

13 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

1) High vertical dive attack with a pull-up in enough time to avoid the prop hang.

 

Does this mean you need to not carry through the attack to too close a range if you want to be able to vertically reset again, and if so what would you say is the range to quit shooting and start pulling in this matchup?( I understand the answer can only my approximate)

On 4/28/2019 at 6:43 PM, Garven said:

The moment you saw him go nose low you should have either simply put your nose on him started shooting or you might have been able to turn onto his six, but I'm not sure of the later option.

I’m not sure what’s to stop him doing the same in this situation? I try to avoid mutual  headons if there is a possibility of a kill some other way, as a fight ending with mutual engines out is pointless.

[Garven]

3 hours ago, Rattlesnake said:

I’m not sure what’s to stop him doing the same in this situation? I try to avoid mutual  headons if there is a possibility of a kill some other way, as a fight ending with mutual engines out is pointless.

In this situation he pretty much committed to nose low if you pointed your nose at him once he did that then it wouldn't have been a true head to head pass.  If he did try to go head on with you and you really didn't want to roll the dice split S and dive out before he gets close.  Had he gone head on with you and you went vertical like you did in the video he would have a low 12 shot at you.

[Rattlesnake]

On 4/28/2019 at 10:59 PM, US103_Baer said:

Feel if you don't cripple a D7f in the first pass then better get out of there. Even more so in FC. 

If I can get the chances of winning the subsequent maneuvering fight against D7fs up to around 50/50 through adapting e-fight  technique to the FC paradigm I will prefer that ups and downs of that outcome to invariably diving away from every one that sees me coming in time. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

8 hours ago, Rattlesnake said:

Does this mean you need to not carry through the attack to too close a range if you want to be able to vertically reset again, and if so what would you say is the range to quit shooting and start pulling in this matchup?( I understand the answer can only my approximate)

 

 

If you ever saw Winged Warrior in RoF.. usually in an SE5 granted.. but that was a sight to behold.

Observing from a distance it always looked like a rocket taking off !

 

A good VIIf is probably your worst nightmare in a Spad (or SE5), especially when you're trying to stay vertical.

I reckon getting some hits on target (even if it's just a coupe of holes in a wing) helps disorientate the bogey and that way you almost 'beat him down' a little with each pass, thus adding to the vertical separation.

Sometimes I like to circle above for a while, delay the attack. Bit of psychological pressure on the enemy.

Fake a couple, get him on edge a bit.

 

If he doesn't see you coming then maybe best to follow through and get those devastating hits.

If he's turning to avoid you I'd say you need to pull up at least 100M short, and pulling away when your sights are still on or around the bandit is where the discipline comes in.

 

This is RoF experience talking here, and to be honest the 103 chaps are as good as anybody just now for talking Spad tactics.

Maybe you could fly with them sometime ?

 

S!

 

 

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

7 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

If you ever saw Winged Warrior in RoF.. usually in an SE5 granted.. but that was a sight to behold.

Observing from a distance it always looked like a rocket taking off !

 

 

How does Winged Warrior do it ????

 

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/46960-fighting-vertical-how-does-winged-warrior-do-it/page-2?hl=%2Bdoes+%2Bwinged+%2Bwarrior#entry651003

Edited April 30, 2019 by Klugermann

[US103_Baer]

Can tell you we've done a lot of practice on Spads in FC against human pilots. It is a much tougher proposition than RoF for reasons already stated. 

 

Conclusion is, compared to RoF you need..

30% more height
40% more accurate
50% more smooth
100% more discipline

 

And that's against all the normal planes. The D7f requires even more caution.

 

Whether it should be likes this is a separate question. For now it is.

 

Btw, the guys are right. The Spad's power-to-weight is among the very best for the war. It's not just a good diver. Dan-San Abbot had a great post showing this. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2045

He misses out the 220hp Spad but you can calculate from the 200hp. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by US103_Baer

[Rattlesnake]

4 hours ago, Klugermann said:

 

How does winged Warrior do it ????

 

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/46960-fighting-vertical-how-does-winged-warrior-do-it/page-2?hl=%2Bdoes+%2Bwinged+%2Bwarrior#entry651003

Useful information...thanks to you.

[Rattlesnake]

So these are the axioms I’ve been able to derive so far:

 

1. Begin that attack from at least 500 meters above. Presumably that’s enough alt to convert to all the speed a Spad can stand?

2. Pull up at a minimum distance of about 100 meters from the target if you want to be able to reset the fight vertically for a second pass. 

Sound about right?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[Zooropa_Fly]

That's roughly what I said so probably not ?

 

I would say it's best to be nearer 1K up to be honest, gives you plenty time.

Only thing I would add is control your dive as much as possible early on, i.e. cut throttle. Aiming is hard enough facing the ground without trying to do it at terminal velocity !

You'll gain max speed very quickly when you have to for the zoom.

 

Only other things I can think of would be close radiator for the dive and keep closed until at least the top of your zoom. Make sure engine's at optimum temp to start with, and that your revs are max for whatever alt you're at.

Maybe minor details but that extra 10M climb can be the difference between getting hit or not.

 

Just thoughts, I'm not the master tactician so hopefully you'll get some more input.

 

S!

[BMA_Hellbender]

2 hours ago, Rattlesnake said:

So these are the axioms I’ve been able to derive so far:

 

1. Begin that attack from at least 500 meters above. Presumably that’s enough alt to convert to all the speed a Spad can stand?

2. Pull up at a minimum distance of about 100 meters from the target if you want to be able to reset the fight vertically for a second pass. 

Sound about right?

 

3. Don't bring a SPAD to an F fight at 3000m

[Garven]

I've shot down F's that high while in a SPAD.

Edited May 1, 2019 by -332FG-Garven

[Rattlesnake]

4 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

3. Don't bring a SPAD to an F fight at 3000m

Got any good techniques for dragging it to the deck+reversal then?

[Guest deleted@83466]

Your major options for reversal in that situation are either horizontal scissors or rolling scissors, but you already know that.  May the Force be with you in that case, because the guy chasing you might be good and get you anyway as the distance closes.  If you had to dive out, your plane is still healthy, and you have a comfy distance, I think it would be foolish to try to re-engage for the "win" in that situation, and I would be happy to take the "Survive" option if your opponent is a 7F.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[Rattlesnake]

29 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Your major options for reversal in that situation are either horizontal scissors or rolling scissors, but you already know that.

I haven’t had as good a luck with  reversals in the WWI genre as Ive had with WWII, in the high wingloaded versus low wingloaded situation tbh. Not sure what the adjustment needs to be. A bounce by a   more maneuverable bandit and attempted defense would be a good idea for another film I reckon. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[BMA_Hellbender]

30 minutes ago, Rattlesnake said:

Got any good techniques for dragging it to the deck+reversal then?

 

You should practise your gunnery till the cows come home (speak with the US103 fellows, seriously) and you can always hope to be facing someone who doesn't know how to properly manage the F's energy at altitude. It's a very different situation if we're talking a 2v1 or 2v2 (or NvN) engagement — but as I understand that's not what you're after. In 1v1 I can only reiterate what I said before: the SPAD's speed and ability to climb is best used as a weapon of surprise. That's the absolute advantage you want to press home. Don't undervalue the SPAD's ability to dive, it was a much sought after quality in WWI machines. The Fokker is not that great at it and requires plenty of sideslip even for modest dives. Whether this is historical or not is probably best left for another discussion. So not only does your opponent not want to dive with you, he knows very well that he gives up more of his own advantage as altitude decreases.

 

Otherwise it's mostly a battle of attrition which is not played out in your favour. Why would you stay up there and play his game? Always fly by your own rules.

 

On the other hand, don't let any of this stop you and feel free to tell me to go to hell. Go out there and be the best SPAD high altitude energy fighter that's ever been. We will watch your career with great interest.

 

 

P.S. It bears repeating: go speak with the US103.

 

P.P.S. I don't mind that you add music to your videos, but you should still include the engine and wind sounds. They can reveal quite a bit about your airmanship.

[Rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

 

P.P.S. I don't mind that you add music to your videos, but you should still include the engine and wind sounds. They can reveal quite a bit about your airmanship.

Heh, after recording I realized my headset mike was open and my wife and our housemate were having girl talk audibly in the background, thought it best and simplest for everyone to just replace the audio with the built in Youtube function. ?

 

7 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

That's roughly what I said so probably not ?

 

I would say it's best to be nearer 1K up to be honest, gives you plenty time.

Only thing I would add is control your dive as much as possible early on, i.e. cut throttle. Aiming is hard enough facing the ground without trying to do it at terminal velocity !

You'll gain max speed very quickly when you have to for the zoom.

 

Only other things I can think of would be close radiator for the dive and keep closed until at least the top of your zoom. Make sure engine's at optimum temp to start with, and that your revs are max for whatever alt you're at.

Maybe minor details but that extra 10M climb can be the difference between getting hit or not.

 

Just thoughts, I'm not the master tactician so hopefully you'll get some more input.

 

S!

What's the straight skinny on temp versus max revs possible? Is it all the same if you're in the "safe" range or more nuanced than that? I have recently put mixture and rad on the hatswitch for WWI, that should help juggle the load.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

I've found this is the best way to kill the D.VIIF in a SPAD: