Witch bf109 I should take to start (and master) ?

[Guest deleted@50488]

Know what guys ?

 

Although I usually pick the F-4 80% of the time, after the initial "hype" about the K-4 which pretty much turned out as a deception, not because it is not modeled as I think it should - actually I know so least about War Aircraft, that I should admit in the very 1st place I couldn't seriously debate it's limitations in the flightsim unless it was something really evident... - and 20% the E-7, I was taken to try out the F-2, more or less for the very 1st time and.... I am really enjoying it!

 

My flights are small diversions into the Berloga server - I have to give those guys a donation! - and it's a Furball all of the time, but heck, it's a very interesting 109!

[CountZero]

5 hours ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said:

mig3 with 40% rad and 30% oil, boosted no overheat, IAS480 at 4k. I would never mention it if overheat kicks in.

and 109f2 same 480kmh at that alt, and then with time as engine overheats and automatic rads open it drops down few kmh to 478, but its combat mode only, so more time on it then mig3 on boosted at same speed.

 

And on top of that you can use emergancy for 3min (or bosted for 1min), and then let it recharge while your in combat mode maintaining distance, and then use it again...

Edited May 2, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[Godspeed]

If you cant fly 110 for some reason

 

Take E7 and become Jabo pilot. ?

 

 

[RedKestrel]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:30 PM, Gambit21 said:

 

 

It possesses that "early war" feel which is difficult to quantify, but you know it if you've spent time in early war aircraft - my preference (especially Wildcat, Zeke, Oscar, P-40)

....but also Rata and MiG 3. I always say it's a 'visceral' thing. Not a foot in WWI still being an all metal monoplane,  but you can still see the Fokker DVIIF from the Emil if that makes sense.

Even more of this with the Rata and it's open cockpit...that plane is too much fun.

 

I have a problem where if I'm flying online and the I-16 is available I have to take it, even if everyone else is flying 1942 or 43 planes. Fighting 109Gs and 190s in it isn't enough to make me quit, god I love that little plane.

The early war planeset is the most underrated thing about this sim and I wish the early planes were more appreciated. Take up the E-7, OP! It's great fun in a fight against a Rata, you'll learn to appreciate absolute climbing advantage in the later 109s after you get caught in a climb by an I-16 a few times.

 

[Sublime]

So thats you puttin around in the I16 online?

[SCG_Syn]

If you want something that really captures the essence and starts the standard for 109s it's probably the F4. It really takes the 109 to its next and best level in the triangle of speed, maneuverability, and firepower. 

 

It retains the e's agility, 

increases firepower (if your a good shot its arguably better), 

and improves upon the f2's speed with a modified db601 that gives it that extra push.

 

If you want to master the 109, I started with the F4 and shes been a great place to move up and down the 109 tree. 

Downside is that you never get something as well balanced as the F4, she spoils you. You are the fastest pre 1944 109 at deck, which is slightly better against Yak1bs, and the only time I choose a G2/G4 is when I see a LA5 on the enemy team. The climb rate on the G's even with the slight decrease in speed makes it slightly better.

 

In any case the F4 (maybe the G4) is where I would place my money on starting (It's where I placed mine and continue to and it pays off)

 

I don't recommend the K4 or G14 as those won't train you to fly the 109, they train you to fly a 109 post 44. The basics are in the earlier models.

[Blackhawk_FR]

At the end almost every 109s (it's true that F4 will be the "easier" one) have both turning and energy fighting capability. It'll all depend on what you are fighting against. 

 

If you're against a Spitfire, you have no other choice than doing energy fight. Spitfire has stunning turning capabilities and climb rate. A 5 years old child could use it. 

If you're against a P51, Tempest, P47, etc... you will have al your chances in turn fight. 

[Fennec]

2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

If you're against a Spitfire, you have no other choice than doing energy fight. Spitfire has stunning turning capabilities and climb rate. A 5 years old child could use it. 

 

 

This is kinda funny when a 109 pilot can helicopter climb away, outrun, outdive, outlast (combat power) and even outaccelerate in some cases pretty much every single Red plane by just pushing the throttle forward  

 

The Spitfire has to be the one exception there of an aircraft that can keep up with a 109 in an extended climb.  

 

As my old friend used to say, "eazy to fly nazi, push full gas and you're baddass!" ..  so it is kinda funny to see that the Spit is considered as an easy plane by 109 pilots.  

 

In my experience the Spits we have barely equalize with the 109 and are dominated by well flown 190's. At least it makes the 109 pilot actually work to get the kill and realize how it is when you need advanced skill to outperform another pilot without having massive advantages in performances.

 

Oh my,  will get flamed ? Disclaimer: i like the 109 very much, beautiful aircraft, in fact for me it is clearly the best fighter of the war overall, to such an extent that i am afraid becoming a weaker pilot using it too much as it forgives mistakes that inevitably get you killed in other planes     

 

[Blackhawk_FR]

2 hours ago, Fennec said:

so it is kinda funny to see that the Spit is considered as an easy plane by 109 pilots.

Just to say, I'm playing IL2 since Pacific Fighter. And the "JG300" in front of my nick name doesn't mean I (or someone else with a JG squad tag) mainly, or only fly 109s and 190s. In other words, I fly blue and red. And at the moment, Spitfire 9 is my main red choice. Flying with and against it is probably the best way to find its weakness. 

 

Now to make it clear: Sure, depending on variants, 109 and 190 have the advantage of speed. They have the "luxury" to initiate and run out of a fight. On servers where survival is the main mindset (TAW for example), it's an interesting advantage. 

But there is something very simple, on an equal situation (1vs1, 2vs2, etc), and equal skills, if the 109 engage the Spitfire with a higher energy, it will probably end with zero kill for both side (if we suppose 109s are careful and avoid turn fight). Now take the reverse situation, it will end with a victory of the Spitfire. 

109 can stand a chance in a defensive dogfight against most russian fighters. Against the Spitfire, there is no chances at all. 

Of course we agree a real dogfight is always way more complex than a theorical example, and the skill will make the difference. 

 

2 hours ago, Fennec said:

As my old friend used to say, "eazy to fly nazi, push full gas and you're baddass!"

Ok, I can reverse the sentence with "easy to fly the Spitfire, keep pulling your stick and you're badass".

Btw, the "nazi" has nothing to do there...

 

2 hours ago, Fennec said:

that i am afraid becoming a weaker pilot using it too much as it forgives mistakes that inevitably get you killed in other planes

Completely wrong. Well, I know it's a question of point of view. But mine is based on my ~15 years experience on IL2. Of course FM's of 1946 are different from BoX FMs. But... just to say that when I say Spitfire requires less skill than all other aircrafts (not only germans ones), it's not a "luftie whining".

 

If we would all fly in an full survival mindset, like IRL, it would be different. But IL2 is a dogfight arena. 

The fact is: Spitfire has a way tighter turning room than most aircrafts (thx to its qualities and wings profile). So, for an identical turn radius, Spitfire will loose less energy. No complain about that: it is like it should be.

So we have an aircraft that outturn everything, with good acceleration and climbrate (as good as 109G2, G4, G6, and almost as good as G14 and K4) and good maximum airspeed (as good as G2, G4, G6, but slower than G14 and K4, but the only advantage of a better max speed is running away). So in a pure dogfight arena, Spitfire is a king and will require less skill.

 

EDIT: I'm adding that you only need some basic BFM skills to manage your dogfight. With a 109 or 190, you need some serious SA and BFM skills to get a good shot opportunity on a Spitfire. Especially in 1vs1 situation. In other words, it's about flying with your brain than just your stick.

 

Fighting a Spitfire AND manage to kill it is way, way, way, way... more challenging than the opposite (in a "dogfight arena" context).

Edited May 10, 2019 by F/JG300_Faucon

[Fennec]

Oh it was just to make it rhyme and also a reference to the famous Hans Albers song " Flieger Gruess mir die sonne" ( Wenn es sein muss drum gib vollgass und flieg um die welt!).

 

Don't quite agree with you with the SA, you need a very good SA in any plane including the Spit, but i think you have specific matchups in mind. In the sim right now we have SpitV's which aren't dominant against a Gustav 2/4/6 in Kuban (speed) , then there is the SpitIX that is outmatched by the K4 in Bodenplatte. By outmatched i mean much slower and not able to disengage ( if we had the Griffon Spits, it could be different).   

 

You have a point that a Spit retains energy better, that is what made it an excellent fighter basically, like the Yaks (high combat speed). 

 

On the other hand, an aircraft ability to change direction quickly is crucial and the Spit is not very good at that, having wing cannons it gives it a poor roll rate. Second thing is a 109 with nose mounted armament has a better ability at deflection shooting as well, wing mounted gunnery is not as convenient for deflection shots with large cannons (>13mm). That is where pilot skill come into the equation ( situational awareness, gunnery accuracy and energy management).

 

When you say that if you have a Spit behind you in a 109, you can't do anything, well i don't quite agree but i see why you say that, because a Spit can do what an I-16 or a P40 would do and go into a sudden low/medium speed high AOA turn as the only saving move. Difference being that a Spit can maintain high combat speed in maneuvers,  better than the 109, you are correct fair enough. 

 

However a 109 with its slightly better roll and deflection accuracy can do something about that. When it is the Spitifre behind you, you have options to change direction quicker and outdive the Spit. The Spit can never really disengage by outdiving the 109 and can only turn which means losing E when the 109 can compensate with altitude gains and switching to a more vertical loop. Alternatively as a last resort, you can use barrel rolls and evading maneuvers with a 109 more effectively than a Spit.  Then you have the engine combat speed timers, the endurance on the 109 is greater.  

 

Anyway I think that both aircrafts are closely matched and don't think that there is such a massive difference between them that a Spitfire pilot requires less skills. One good point of the Spit (slightly better energy retention) doesn't make it an aircraft for noobs. It is forgiving yes but then so is the 109 against pretty much any aircraft except Spits/Yak who are not that far behind when flown well, but still somewhat inferior and rarely having the initiative (109 being faster at altitude, usually flying higher as a result and able to create separation and disengage unless the fight occurs at very low alts, and even then it can sometimes outrun it).  

 

Initiative is key.. one can disengage at will, the other can't. One is faster at all altitudes, not the other. One can change direction quicker, the other can't as well. One is more accurate at deflection shooting and not the other. Thank God there are like 1 or 2 aircrafts that can actually compete with the 109 more or less  ( Try P-40/39/Lagg3/I-16/Mig etc vs 109..i feel like the son of Zeus when i get into a 109 again :) )

 

Anyway i respect your opinion i think i remember when you started flying on HL back in the days  the community is very small, the french one even smaller..(AirWar and the Spitvs109 server;)). Cheers.   

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Fennec

[Blackhawk_FR]

14 hours ago, Fennec said:

On the other hand, an aircraft ability to change direction quickly is crucial and the Spit is not very good at that

Why is it crucial? 

Spitfire is the most maneuverable in the game so I don't get why you say it's not good? 

 

14 hours ago, Fennec said:

because a Spit can do what an I-16 or a P40 would do and go into a sudden low/medium speed high AOA turn as the only saving move.

I don't understand...

 

14 hours ago, Fennec said:

When it is the Spitifre behind you, you have options to change direction quicker and outdive the Spit.

I need to understand this "change direction quicker". If you "change direction quicker" with a Spitfire behind you, to mean that mean you make a turn. So the Spit will close the gap even more and you're doomed. 

In my first post, when I was saying "against the spitfire no chance at all", I was talking about an engagement with energy advantage for the Spitfire. So no way for the 109 to escape. 

There is a difference between having a Spitfire close on your six or far... If he's in range and you're not high enough to get your max airspeed in a dive, you're doomed. 

I'm always considering both pilot with equal skill. Of course the 109 still has a chance if it's flown by an expert against an average Spit pilot. 

 

14 hours ago, Fennec said:

 Alternatively as a last resort, you can use barrel rolls and evading maneuvers with a 109 more effectively than a Spit.

Same as above... all depend on the balance of skills, and the luck factor. 

 

14 hours ago, Fennec said:

Second thing is a 109 with nose mounted armament has a better ability at deflection shooting as well, wing mounted gunnery is not as convenient for deflection shots with large cannons (>13mm).

I don't feel more difficulties at deflexion shooting with wing cannons. 

 

14 hours ago, Fennec said:

Anyway I think that both aircrafts are closely matched and don't think that there is such a massive difference between them that a Spitfire pilot requires less skills

First of all it depends if we're on a server with survival as main goal, or if we're in a savage dogfight arena (like Berloga). On that server, from what I saw, and what I practice (I fly as much red than blue, depending on teams), Spitfire is the king and requieres very very less skill. 

[Fennec]

2 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

Why is it crucial? 

 

 When you have a slightly faster roll rate, you can change direction quicker.. that was the great strength of a 190 or the Hawk 75 of the AdA in 1940, changing direction quicker thanks to a fast roll rate.  it means that on the defensive, you have slightly more promising options.. also means that closing at high speed on someone you can adjust your course with more precision at the last moment for optimal accuracy.

 

There is a reason why they came up with clipped wings version of the spits later. 

 

Regarding what you said you did not understand : I meant if you are behind a spit, the only thing he can do is turn.  If a Spit is behind you, you can do maneuvers like barrel rolls with more efficiency, scissors or sudden decelerations to lose E very quickly and get him to overshoot ( at very low speeds you have slats, they dont) and if you have altitude, you can outdive him.   

 

Of course any plane with energy advantage bouncing on you or already at close gun range behind you will have a massive advantage, what would be the difference in having a P-40 or a Spit behind you in such situation anyway?

 

 As a 109 pilot,  I would be more afraid of the P-40 having superior energy and closing on me very fast (faster roll rate meaning he can adapt to sudden change of directions quicker, more adequate guns for deflection shooting, very good elevator authority at most speeds) or already being behind me very close , since in that situation you cannot outrun or outclimb so the only choice is to just dive, or go for a risky maneuver to get him to overshoot or buy time. 

 

For the difficulty with wing cannons, it depends on your convergence and gunnery skill. But as a rule ( and especially in real life), deflection shooting with wing mounted cannons is more difficult than with nose mounted weapons. The spitfire doesn't have a high ammo count on the hispanos as well so you have to be more conservative with deflection attempts. From my experience, the Browning .50 cal is a much better weapon for air-to air fighter engagements as a result. 

 

Maybe they are very good Spitfire pilots in Berloga, it is possible. After all it is supposed to be a very good airplane.  The thing that got me posting is that you said that a 5 years old can fly a spit successfully. I just found this a bit excessive because in the sim, in most cases, the Bf109 is so dominant over the opposition having far superior performances (speed, climb, accel, handling in some case, endurance at combat power etc)  that it takes something special quite often to do well against it using most other red planes. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Fennec

[Lensman]

F4 with additional cannon.

I'd stake my (virtual) life on it.

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, Lensman said:

F4 with additional cannon.

I'd stake my (virtual) life on it.

The gondolas?  Theyre really deadly in SP havent tried em in MP...

[ATAG_kiwiflieger]

43 minutes ago, Sublime said:

The gondolas?  Theyre really deadly in SP havent tried em in MP...

 

Provided you can shoot straight and stick to mostly boom and zoom tactics it's great and it only takes a short burst for them to make like grandmother's shortbread in your mouth. Naturally I forget that they do come with a weight/aerodynamics penalty and try to turnfight with them and get my rear end handed to me

 

They make a nice dual role escort/ secondary ground attacker when combined with 110s or 88s too.

[Hawk-2a]

5 hours ago, Sublime said:

The gondolas?  Theyre really deadly in SP havent tried em in MP.

I don‘t like them in MP when flying solo due to the weight and drag they come with.

when flying with 2 wingmen, it can be really handy for 1 or 2 to have gunpods. The one with pods attacks bombers and the other provides cover and goes for fighters. Can be fun

[Sublime]

Oh 

4 minutes ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:

I don‘t like them in MP when flying solo due to the weight and drag they come with.

when flying with 2 wingmen, it can be really handy for 1 or 2 to have gunpods. The one with pods attacks bombers and the other provides cover and goes for fighters. Can be fun

i agree. I was curious if you meant MP.  In SP i used them a couple weeks. I loved it.  But its a bad habit to use because you cant get awau with some of the same hijinx on MP.