Witch bf109 I should take to start (and master) ?

[Irtis]

Hello!

 

There is a lot of time that I play russian yak and others. But now I ready to play german! (I believe! )

 

And I really don't know with witch german plane I must start, there are a lot of 109 with différents caracteristics. (I have all campaigns).

I want to start to understand how to manage correctly engine, rpm, mixture etc. (On yak I put everything at 100% and it's ok...)

And also start to understand how to boom and zoom correctly.

 

Do you have some advices to choose a german plane to start and to master it? (after several months (years! ? ))

 

Thanks!

[Herne]

1 minute ago, Irtis said:

Hello!

 

There is a lot of time that I play russian yak and others. But now I ready to play german! (I believe! )

 

And I really don't know with witch german plane I must start, there are a lot of 109 with différents caracteristics. (I have all campaigns).

I want to start to understand how to manage correctly engine, rpm, mixture etc. (On yak I put everything at 100% and it's ok...)

And also start to understand how to boom and zoom correctly.

 

Do you have some advices to choose a german plane to start and to master it? (after several months (years! ? ))

 

Thanks!

 

To be honest with the exception of the E7, I think they all handle quite similar. 

 

If you are playing online just take what is available, if doing a career, then I would be tempted to start at the earliest phase of the campaign and work through. Only thing that really matters is that you are having fun

[Rattlesnake]

K4 because it’s going to be the top in the most populated serves as BoBp comes out and because it’s engine is easy to not break. Honorable mention: G14 because you can take that 20 instead of the tater.

[Hawk-2a]

Well good news is that the rpm and mixture is all automated on the 109. no matter what model, you just adjust throttle. Also water rad is automatic (can be switched to manual, same as prop pitch) but you won‘t really need to go manual mode (only in very specific cases).

 

Personally i started with the F4. It‘s a good performance aircraft and more forgiving than other 109s. Can get you out alive even after making a mistake.

 

Get used to using the stabilizer, it can make BnZ alot simpler as 109s lock up around 600kph in a dive. With nose up stabilizer setting, you can then still pull up

[Rattlesnake]

Albeit the 190 is much more of a dream in handling. Doesn’t do as much in terms of turn and climb, but you don’t have to wrassle it to make it do the things it will do. Finger-tip flying.

[Finkeren]

To be quite honest, beyond the E7 (which is also the most fun of the bunch), there is really not a whole lot of difference between the 109s. Over time they become progressively more powerful, heavily armed, faster and slightly less agile, but their overall characteristics and strengths and weaknesses vs. their counterparts remain largely unchanged. The Bf 109 throughout is fast, a great climber, reasonably well armed with good agility and very forgiving to piloting mistakes. Sure there are variations in engine limitations, but they are easy to memorize and if you play with technochat you don't even need to do that. Just remember the time limits for the three engine modes: Emergency = 1 minute or thereabouts (which means don't use for anything other than short bursts of acceleration when in a pickle), combat mode = 30 minutes (use this in combat) and normal mode = unlimited time (use when cruising) - The K4 is slightly different with more usable time in emergency mode, but otherwise the same. Other than that the engine, cooling system etc takes care of itself - on the E7 you also have to manage the radiators, which fortunately are quite effective.

 

When choosing which 109 to start out with, you really should consider, which opposing planes you will be fighting in that time period rather than the abilities of any particular version of the 109.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Finkeren

[unreasonable]

You could use the G-2 if you are practicing at first, because power settings over combat power are not allowed. So you have 30 minutes at combat power and do not have to worry about the 5 minute or one minute timers for high power settings in the other types. It is easy to blow up your engine if you are not very careful. Not having to worry about this means you can concentrate on flying the aircraft.

 

The 109 G-2 can do everything you want in a 109 on combat power. Once you have the basics of flying the 109 down, you can fly the others with the extra power setting which is useful in emergencies. Do not worry about using manual radiator or prop pitch settings: you really do not need them.  What is important is getting the feel for the elevator trim [edit: horizontal stabiliser strictly speaking].

 

One other point: you do not need to have flaps partially down to take off on a normal length airfield, and landing is easier with about 50% flap than with full flap. 109s slow down at the landing very well - unlike Spitfires for example - as they have a high landing AoA. So experiment with how much flap you need.

Edited April 27, 2019 by unreasonable

[Guest deleted@50488]

F-4

[Eisenfaustus]

unreasonable's suggestion is a good one - however I think F2 is the best starting point because it has the weakest engine and needs most discipline to be successfull. If you know what your doing in the F2, you can fly any 109.

[D3adCZE]

Personally I would take G2. It has no WEP(at least automatic), is somewhat nimble and yet shows traits of later models. They are unforgiving though. You will have to eat lot of discipline to handle them properly.

[Fennec]

Personally, i would say the Emil is the way to start.  If you flew Allied planes before,  having a manual radiator control is not really much of a distraction.

 

The reason i would choose the Emil is because it is the least competitive, therefore it is more likely that you will not pick up bad habits like you can with a G2, which is a plane that outperforms others with greater ease and is thus more forgiving.

 

With the E7, your mistakes can get punished more readily by Soviet planes and that is why it is probably the best way to start if you want to improve with this type. You will die or get shot down more but you may become a better 109 pilot.

 

As posters pointed out later models are flown in the same way, just less nimble and more powerful.  With E7 you have to pay more attention to the energy levels of your opponents as the differences in speed and climb rate are not as significant. You can get caught by a Mig on level flight and have issues to increase separation, an I16 can catch you climbing at low speed and outturn you, P40 can outmanoeuvre you in certain circumstances. 

 

With G2 i agree that you can't really break your engine, so that's a plus for a beginner but again if you previously flew allied planes, you must be familiar with looking at your rpm and manifold pressure gauge.  In the E7 you just have to watch your rpm and make sure you are never past 2400.  

[Velxra]

In the 109, one of the key components of the aircraft that people often forget to mention is the tail stabilizer. Unlike most planes the 109's stabilizer can be adjusted during flight and I recommend to have a control set to quickly adjust it during flight. The 109 is a dive and climb aircraft. Because of that design it will stay very true to course when flying as the wings are designed for that purpose. But also there is a drawback. The 109 has a difficult time pulling out of hard dives towards ground targets. Novice pilots will often crash into the ground because they were either too dedicated to the target or they simply could not pull out of the dive. Too prevent this issue, actively adjust the stabilizer in small increments, and when you are in a hard dive adjusting it to pull the nose up will save your life.  There are also other benefits by slightly adjusting it during straights for faster flat out speed or adjusting slight to naturally climb without use of ailerons. Which in skilled hands can really do leagues to outclimb Russian aircraft.

The result of adjusting the stabilizer during flight is less drag, more natural speed, and more fine tune control of the aircraft. Master the use of the stabilizer during flight to unlock the full potential of your 109. Adjusting the stabilizer was also part of the original real world tactics for German pilots in WW2.  

[Gambit21]

First answer was the right one - E7.

If the object is to have fun anyway.

[MasserME262]

6 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

unreasonable's suggestion is a good one - however I think F2 is the best starting point because it has the weakest engine and needs most discipline to be successfull. If you know what your doing in the F2, you can fly any 109.

this this this

 

F2 is crap if you dont take care well of it. Dont care about engine and in 10 minutes you will be forced to do a forced landing. If you can fly that thing then you can fly any 109.

[Sublime]

Id say whatever suits you best.

The E7 is weakest and least automated.  May be good to learn the base plane and how to run engines and maybe learning on this would be good because the rest will be easier and better performing. But otherwise I wouldnt unless you have a love for the plane, especially as the rest automate radiators and RPMs so youre learning a useful skill; just not for 109s really.

The F2 is alright but the F4 is my definitive 109. Id start with it.  Light , good armament, automated as much as its gonna be.  Though again its opinion.

I wouldnt suggest the G2 as the engine hadnt come into its own. The G4 or any other G may be good to learn as theres a few variants and they were most common.

The K is the best of course but its a departure from the directions 109 took after the F4.  So I stay with my F4 recommendation.

But its really up to you.

6 hours ago, Finkeren said:

To be quite honest, beyond the E7 (which is also the most fun of the bunch), there is really not a whole lot of difference between the 109s. Over time they become progressively more powerful, heavily armed, faster and slightly less agile, but their overall characteristics and strengths and weaknesses vs. their counterparts remain largely unchanged. The Bf 109 throughout is fast, a great climber, reasonably well armed with good agility and very forgiving to piloting mistakes. Sure there are variations in engine limitations, but they are easy to memorize and if you play with technochat you don't even need to do that. Just remember the time limits for the three engine modes: Emergency = 1 minute or thereabouts (which means don't use for anything other than short bursts of acceleration when in a pickle), combat mode = 30 minutes (use this in combat) and normal mode = unlimited time (use when cruising) - The K4 is slightly different with more usable time in emergency mode, but otherwise the same. Other than that the engine, cooling system etc takes care of itself - on the E7 you also have to manage the radiators, which fortunately are quite effective.

 

When choosing which 109 to start out with, you really should consider, which opposing planes you will be fighting in that time period rather than the abilities of any particular version of the 109.

Hey can I ask why you say the E7s most fun? I havent actually flown it in Il2 yet and Im tempted to

Is it just because as I told him you learn to fight the oldest model the rest will be a breeze and automated too.

but do you like jabo missions more? Does it just feel different in a dogfight? Genuinely curious. My favorites alwats been the F4.  Hey also people say G2, G2. But is that a suggestion for newbies? Youd think the G4 is better in everyway as you can get the engine to a higher ATA that G2 doesnt allow...  Its the same engine for both correct just refined better for the 4? Also the G14 and G6 I dont have. I imagine theyre very similar - what are the main differences? Armament?  Ar the engines the same through to the K?

[Irtis]

Thank everyone with these precious information!

 

So, i will try E-7 and F-4.

 

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

First answer was the right one - E7.

If the object is to have fun anyway.

agree on the 2nd thing.

Just as I asked Finkeren can you tell me why you like the E7?  Just curious. I havent tested it out in game yet (lol)

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

The ONLY thing you really need to know about engine management from the F2 onward is....   1.1 on the ATA gauge.   You can almost pull off anything necessary for combat without ever going into "combat" mode if you keep the speed up and keep the advantage.

Oh, and the E7 setup with full ground attack armor and loadout is almost impossible to taxi to the right.

[Bremspropeller]

Fw 190

[sevenless]

43 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Fw 190

2nd that. Hit them quick and hit them hard. You can do all this with the FW 190 A3, A5, A8. D9. I love all of them.

[ST_ami7b5]

1 hour ago, Irtis said:

Thank everyone with these precious information!

 

So, i will try E-7 and F-4.

 

This is what I would recommend too.

[Sublime]

Oh wow now I get it with the E7. Its a joy to fly actually and 'feels' lightest of all the 109s. May just be me..

[Leon_Portier]

Start out with F-4 and if you like use E-7

I love the E-7, its great with it rads. Plus, double the gun, double the fun!

[Gambit21]

5 hours ago, Sublime said:

agree on the 2nd thing.

Just as I asked Finkeren can you tell me why you like the E7?  Just curious. I havent tested it out in game yet (lol)

 

You've already flown it, but yes it's fun.

It possesses that "early war" feel which is difficult to quantify, but you know it if you've spent time in early war aircraft - my preference (especially Wildcat, Zeke, Oscar, P-40)

....but also Rata and MiG 3. I always say it's a 'visceral' thing. Not a foot in WWI still being an all metal monoplane,  but you can still see the Fokker DVIIF from the Emil if that makes sense.

Even more of this with the Rata and it's open cockpit...that plane is too much fun.

 

Anyhoo that Emil is a blast to fly, and not in any danger of ever being called a 'dweeb plane' either.

The F is great too...you'd never catch me in a G these days.

 

If you're into stats and e-games (or just like late war aircraft) then learn the K-4. If you want a fun feeling of early war flight - take the E.

[CAFulcrum]

The 109G2 at Pitomnik in career mode is fun, feel like I'm invincible against other aircraft.  Especially with the extra 20mm cannons.

 

The E's armament feels weak to me, don't know if it's the different model of 20mm or the fact that they're wing mounted, but they don't seem to achieve the one burst kills like the F onwards with its concentrated, linear fire, so that is another consideration to make.  imo the F seems to fly the smoothest; E has a 'kite' like feel while the G and onward are heavier performance machines.  But the all seem to go where you point them and the slats make them very maneuverable at almost every moment, no weird aero quirks to deal with.  Great airplanes to make slashing attacks against bombers with since they have that combination of boom and zoom performance and great low speed maneuverability.

Edited April 27, 2019 by CAFulcrum
corrections

[Sublime]

12 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

You've already flown it, but yes it's fun.

It possesses that "early war" feel which is difficult to quantify, but you know it if you've spent time in early war aircraft - my preference (especially Wildcat, Zeke, Oscar, P-40)

....but also Rata and MiG 3. I always say it's a 'visceral' thing. Not a foot in WWI still being an all metal monoplane,  but you can still see the Fokker DVIIF from the Emil if that makes sense.

Even more of this with the Rata and it's open cockpit...that plane is too much fun.

 

Anyhoo that Emil is a blast to fly, and not in any danger of ever being called a 'dweeb plane' either.

The F is great too...you'd never catch me in a G these days.

 

If you're into stats and e-games (or just like late war aircraft) then learn the K-4. If you want a fun feeling of early war flight - take the E.

Yeah. I took it up after the posts and immediately "got" it.  It "feels" like the lightest 109 Ive flown in game. I havent flown the K but meh not really worried about the K.

Thanks though - that was a plane I hadnt even really toyed with in that variant and Ive started really tooling around with it.

[Mac_Messer]

For learning 109 piloting I`d say take the 109G4. Mainly for the reason that it is the least nimble in the pack available now. You have to keep on your toes while managing energy state and not falling into the T&B trap.

 

Learning prop pitch controls IMO is largely irrelevant imo.

[danielprates]

This may be a little off topic, but if you want to fly a "learning" plane, give the p40 a go.

[Magnum11]

My 109 is a Witch too..

[unreasonable]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:14 PM, Eisenfaustus said:

unreasonable's suggestion is a good one - however I think F2 is the best starting point because it has the weakest engine and needs most discipline to be successfull. If you know what your doing in the F2, you can fly any 109.

 

Engine management in the F-2 is a nightmare!   It is upto the OP really: if he wants to dive in the deep end of engine management, the F-2 is good, G-2 better for baby steps.

 

Apart from the engine management there is not so much to choose: they all share many similar features, with the gradual change in feel that comes as the later versions became progressively heavier.

 

There are essentially two schools of thought about learning in the thread: one is to say that you start with the most complex possible plane, because after you have that right the less complex ones are easy. The other - which I obviously recommended - is that you start with the simplest plane of the set, master it's features, and then move on to versions with more complexity. Indeed I would recommend pilots new to prop sims to start with a WW1 plane, for this reason.

 

Clearly in the real world where mistakes can have catastrophic consequences the latter approach is preferred. In a scenario where mistakes have no consequences, it might be the case that the "complex first" school of thought is more efficient/effective, but I do not recall seeing any evidence of this. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by unreasonable

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

Engine management in the F-2 is a nightmare!  

 

1.1 ATA.  Set it. Forget it.  Don't get impatient on the takeoff climb out.  Once you get to patrol altitude you should need only to fly smoothly and not waste energy.  Keep the advantage in combat and you'll NEVER need to push the motor.  As an added bonus, you'll no longer need right rudder correction after about 450kph but, around 575kph you'll need to start correcting to the left instead of right. 

[unreasonable]

18 minutes ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

1.1 ATA.  Set it. Forget it.  Don't get impatient on the takeoff climb out.  Once you get to patrol altitude you should need only to fly smoothly and not waste energy.  Keep the advantage in combat and you'll NEVER need to push the motor.  As an added bonus, you'll no longer need right rudder correction after about 450kph but, around 575kph you'll need to start correcting to the left instead of right. 

 

That will not always work if you have to spend a lot of time chasing MiGs, as you do in the Moscow career:  even in emergency you can hardly close on them when they are boosted.  Usually better not to even try, and climb away instead, IMHO, but they will then chase you all the way back to your airfield as often as not. 

 

I agree with your advice otherwise: that is how I have flown it in dozens of career missions.  Nevertheless, having three different timers is objectively more difficult to manage than having only one.   It can get particularly irritating in the squadrons with a mix of F-2s and F-4s, where you can get constantly switched between types, and the limits are quite different. I have to keep a notebook open... 

Edited April 27, 2019 by unreasonable

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

3 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

That will not always work if you have to spend a lot of time chasing MiGs, as you do in the Moscow career:  even in emergency you can hardly close on them when they are boosted.  Usually better not to even try, and climb away instead, IMHO, but they will then chase you all the way back to your airfield as often as not. 

 

I agree with your advice otherwise: that is how I have flown it in dozens of career missions.  Nevertheless, having three different timers is objectively more difficult to manage than having only one.   It can get particularly irritating in the squadrons with a mix of F-2s and F-4s, where you can get constantly switched between types, and the limits are quite different. I have to keep a notebook open... 

I hadn't considered single player with the omniscient AI.  In that case the speed of the MiG is surely not all that counter-able with sneaky tactics. 

In  MP, boom and zoom tactics which (with the exception of the actual high speed snapshot part of it) are somewhat easy to master, and easy to escape if you botch it, are a lot more valid.  

[gorice]

The only problem with the G-2 is the abysmal visibility. It's a nice plane otherwise, but trying to see things becomes a much higher workload; I'd rather just take an F-series and learn to read the ata dial.

[Legioneod]

E-7, by far the most interesting 109 besides the G series.

Early 109s just have a lot more character than the later variants. I hope to see a round canopy 109E one day as those are my favorite 109s.

 

109s are pretty easy to fly and don't take much to be good in them and it only gets better the later you go in the 109 series.

E-7 offers the most challenge and fun where you aren't really superior to any aircraft.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Legioneod

[Sublime]

20 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Engine management in the F-2 is a nightmare!   It is upto the OP really: if he wants to dive in the deep end of engine management, the F-2 is good, G-2 better for baby steps.

 

Apart from the engine management there is not so much to choose: they all share many similar features, with the gradual change in feel that comes as the later versions became progressively heavier.

 

There are essentially two schools of thought about learning in the thread: one is to say that you start with the most complex possible plane, because after you have that right the less complex ones are easy. The other - which I obviously recommended - is that you start with the simplest plane of the set, master it's features, and then move on to versions with more complexity. Indeed I would recommend pilots new to prop sims to start with a WW1 plane, for this reason.

 

Clearly in the real world where mistakes can have catastrophic consequences the latter approach is preferred. In a scenario where mistakes have no consequences, it might be the case that the "complex first" school of thought is more efficient/effective, but I do not recall seeing any evidence of this. 

This is a fair point.

One thing Id disagree with this line of thinking on is with combat.  SP is good to learn deflection shooting, using maps and not breaking your plane.  However if you have flight sim experience after a couple weeks your probably not learning any new ACMs and it may actually begin hurting you if you ever plan on MP. 

As an example I can use my 109 or 190 in SP as a turn fighter all day every mission and generally without bad luck from flak and as long as you check six often you wont get shot down 90% of the time.

In MP you.ll get killed doing this.  Theres been several times Id fool around in SP ajd by chance see an AI plane clumsily nose around my rear and turn off without a shot - lots of "I should be dead for that mistake" moments.  A good example also is I used a 109 G4 on KOTA and ran into a Spit IX.  I dived on him, messed up my shot, got greedy and started dogfighting instead of extending.  Round and round we go down and down.  I obvioisly know this is crazy agaonst a spit but maybe hes more of a n00b than me.  Eh no. He calmly outturned me but not hard and progressively was turning inside my turns.  Another 360 and hed be on my tail.  I had to run for it on the deck... Which led to me augering in and being bs I killed myself ?

Back to the OP- if its not fun fly something fun.  Its a gane after all.

21 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

For learning 109 piloting I`d say take the 109G4. Mainly for the reason that it is the least nimble in the pack available now. You have to keep on your toes while managing energy state and not falling into the T&B trap.

 

Learning prop pitch controls IMO is largely irrelevant imo.

However at the same time the G4 is the fastest... If youre facing BP Allied planes or Kuban 43 planes itd feel suicidal taking a F4. 

Then again i regular see youtube videos of a certain lady whose probably the best shot Ive seen in game and will kill people even in a HS129.. Lol

Edited April 28, 2019 by Sublime

[III/JG2Gustav05]

BOOSTed Mig3 is always faster than combat powered Bf109F2 about 10km/h from deck to altitude. Il2 BOS always opens my eyes, actually VVS already had technical advantage over Luftwaffe even at beginning of war.

[Sublime]

Yes Il2 has really been good for that for me too.  Theres been several "wow thats why" moments. Same with even being airborne and seeing the Stalingrad map come to life - a lot of pieces of histories I read in the battle sort of 'clicked' together in my head.  Ill also add the RA reinforcing over the Volga is that much more impressive when you get a real idea in game of how damned wide it is.

The Mig3s dont feel especially threatening in a 109 F but geesh in an E7 they really tear up my wingmen and give me trouble too.  They easily outrun E7s and Im sure vs humans Id be slaughtered.

The Soviets blew through their Mig3s really fast thouvh - if Im not mistaken most were lost not phased out?  The Germans had better tech in some ways but regardless this is where experience and tactics win out - especially in the BoM time frame.

By the way the BoM campaign reaaallly drives home how close Op Typhoon was.  A few days into 'City Under Siege' a northern German pincers a mere 20 or 30 KM from Moscow and Im pretty sure it gets closer..

[CountZero]

7 hours ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said:

BOOSTed Mig3 is always faster than combat powered Bf109F2 about 10km/h from deck to altitude. Il2 BOS always opens my eyes, actually VVS already had technical advantage over Luftwaffe even at beginning of war.

Only if you fly mig3 with fully closed radiators and youll overheat fast that way, if you fly mig3 with rads positions so you dont overheat (like 109F2 do) then your bearly matching 109F2 combat speed on all alts.

[III/JG2Gustav05]

15 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

Only if you fly mig3 with fully closed radiators and youll overheat fast that way, if you fly mig3 with rads positions so you dont overheat (like 109F2 do) then your bearly matching 109F2 combat speed on all alts.

mig3 with 40% rad and 30% oil, boosted no overheat, IAS480 at 4k. I would never mention it if overheat kicks in.