That turning thing.

[Guest deleted@32648]

There's a review on Steam that mentions the AI always turning, a developer has replied to say that this 'always turning issue' has been fixed, but also that it was a recently introduced bug,... surely this can't refer to the 'always turning AI' thing and that it has been fixed, or has it?  Pretty cool if it has, can someone confirm if it has or is the fixed one a different 'always turning' thing?

 

(I do read the updates but can't recall this holy grail ever being in there.)

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

   I won't go so far to say that the alleged AI always turning problem has been fixed... but It appears that it has been addressed or adjusted in some way by the developers. I conclude this because during my mission building testing I see many AI controlled craft go vertical much more often in combat and this is good. The situation may not be to the satisfaction of some but from what I have seen, an improvement has been made. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Thad

[=621=Samikatz]

If the AI have the initiative they won't try to turn with you, if you're on their 6 they'll keep turning until either you completely pull in ahead of their turn or you give them an opening to extend. Rookie and Normal AI will barely maneuver and basically just try to turn to put you in their gunsight, but high and ace AI will try some tricks. They'll never match a good player but considering they use the same flight model as the player mostly without issue I think they do an ok job!

 

If you want exciting missions, give the AI good planes and a slight numbers advantage, their aggression can make for some scary dogfights

[Feathered_IV]

I can confirm as of 10 minutes ago, the AI still turns continuously on the deck.  Even after taking engine damage or loosing fuel.  They will turn into infinity for as long as they can stay in the air.  [edited]

Edited April 1, 2019 by SYN_Haashashin

[vipe155]

Same here.  I'm playing the BOM career and in close quarters 100% of the time the enemy Mig-3s constantly turn low.

[Feathered_IV]

Sneaksie(RUS)  [developer] Posted: 21 Mar @ 11:24pm

...please try again since we updated the game recently. We steadily work on improving the AI for singleplayer, so it gets better (and the 'just turning' problem was a recently introduced bug that is fixed).

 

Just found the comment.  It's very strange.  The AI has been doing infinity turns since the early days of RoF. 

Maybe it is a translation thing and he means it is going to be fixed soon?

[GSP_Hund]

It's aircraft specific, the many battles I've endured with AI Mig3 they're turn-masters, now fighting against AI Yak1s I've seen them boom and zoom taking me up then down over and over.

Edited March 31, 2019 by GSP_Hund

[ShamrockOneFive]

27 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I can confirm as of 10 minutes ago, the AI still turns continuously on the deck.  Even after taking engine damage or loosing fuel.  They will turn into infinity for as long as they can stay in the air.  The developer is not giving accurate information. 

I've found that the AI tends to be very reactive to the player and so your flying style can dictate a lot about how they fly defensively. If you're using the same technique it will definitely turn in circles for a very long time. Try and use another method to draw lead (a yo-yo or something else) and you'll convince them to do some more interesting things.

 

Recently they added a few more snap roll maneuvers to the defensive bag of tricks. You can anticipate it but it's still a little more challenging than before. The AI can be quite interesting but they can also lock in on a single defensive pattern and it has a lot to do with the player's pattern. This may explain how both what you're experiencing and what the developers are reporting as fixes and improvements being true.

[Feathered_IV]

I've tried spoon feeding the AI to get them out of their endless turns before.  It becomes a chore after a while however and tends to spoil the enjoyment of the game when I have to repeatedly let them off the hook.

[Field-Ops]

Just fought against a bunch of 190A8 and 190D9 and they either dove, were zoom climbing, or spiral climbing away from my P47. The only times I noticed them doing lazy turns is when I want close enough to fire anyway. When I got closer they dove. I never got to the deck but I assume what you guys are experiencing on the deck is them having no room to compute maneuvers. Perhaps if they are far enough away from opposition they need to be coded to shallow climb away to get that altitude back so they can play again. 

[Rattlesnake]

I've noticed that the AIs also don't seem to turn very tightly. You can keep up with them even in planes that should by all rights quickly get out-rated. They'd be a bit more useful for offline target practice if they turned as hard as human pilots can manage. But there's likely technical difficulties involved.

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Rattlesnake

[Ribbon]

It's quite better than it used to be, maybe it still turns low on deck (not tight as it used to turn), not sure but a bit higher it climbs, extend, fight vertical, regain energy and and attack!

Improvement is there for sure even not perfect.......

[Thad]

3 hours ago, GSP_Hund said:

It's aircraft specific, the many battles I've endured with AI Mig3 they're turn-masters, now fighting against AI Yak1s I've seen them boom and zoom taking me up then down over and over.

 

This may very well be correct if the developers are setting the FMs for the different WWII aircraft to approximate the crafts actual individual strengths and or weaknesses. 

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Just found the comment.  It's very strange.  The AI has been doing infinity turns since the early days of RoF. 

Maybe it is a translation thing and he means it is going to be fixed soon?

 

Nothing strange about it - he's saying that the previous AI behavior where they will only turn has been fixed. 

[Feathered_IV]

I was trying to be polite.

[Panzerlang]

Just my take on it but overall I find the AI plenty acceptable. They're rookies to early vets and do better in some planes than others but well enough in all to be believable. The proper vets and the aces are humans online.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

They could pull more Gs when they can. It's true that they are better than before. 

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I was trying to be polite.

 

Go fly a Spitfire career mission on the Kuban map on Hard difficulty and watch what the 109s do - they will climb away from you every day of the week, making it very hard to stay with them. 

 

The AI does_not_just_turn any more. That's easily observable.

[dburne]

3 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Go fly a Spitfire career mission on the Kuban map on Hard difficulty and watch what the 109s do - they will climb away from you every day of the week, making it very hard to stay with them. 

 

The AI does_not_just_turn any more. That's easily observable.

 

Having flown Spitfire Careers on Kuban for a while now I can certainly attest to that.

Those dang 109's and 190's both will use their vertical strengths quite a lot.

[Feathered_IV]

59 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Go fly a Spitfire career mission on the Kuban map on Hard difficulty and watch what the 109s do - they will climb away from you every day of the week, making it very hard to stay with them. 

 

The AI does_not_just_turn any more. That's easily observable.

 

I have a MiG-3 and I-16 career in Moscow, an La-5 and Yak-1 career in Stalingrad, plus a P-39 career over the Kuban already.  The 109s are all turning to the right and staying that way as soon as they get to 500m. 

[CountZero]

For test i put 109 vs me in lagg3 in qm first novice, i get on his 6 and in few sec he starts right turn and just goes like that for long time.

Then i try ace and i get on his 6 and he starts right turn and after few turns he starts to right climb turn and i cant falow and then he bnz me. 

So from what i see it depends on what skill ai is how dumb or smart he will be, looks like it should be then.

[dburne]

49 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

For test i put 109 vs me in lagg3 in qm first novice, i get on his 6 and in few sec he starts right turn and just goes like that for long time.

Then i try ace and i get on his 6 and he starts right turn and after few turns he starts to right climb turn and i cant falow and then he bnz me. 

So from what i see it depends on what skill ai is how dumb or smart he will be, looks like it should be then.

 

 

Yes AI skill plays a large part.

 

[CountZero]

Only critic i have on what that ace 109 was doing is it didnt turn hard enought, while he was doing turn to make me slow i could shoot at him all time and i didnt even have to try that hard, and i know 109 can easy outturn lagg3, so untill he started to do climb and use his advantages he would be without wings before it if i wonted to shoot and not just see what he will do. 

[Guest deleted@32648]

Thanks. I have the answer I need.

 

I would say the steam comment is somewhat misleading as it must refer to a different AI issue compared to the years old issue.

 

I'll wait until I see there's an eruption of joy on the relevant update discussion thread when this finally is addressed, rather than getting hopes up over a single steam comment on a critical review.

 

Thanks again for the replies.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Never put AI below Vet unless you deliberately want a shooting gallery. Vet and Ace can pull an interesting mix of manouvres but unless you are heavily outnumbered or in a significanty worse aircraft, the engagements are pretty winable.

 

Personally, I think the FC aircraft is more where the AI struggles. Given the low speeds and climb rates, they struggle to achieve much separation and that seems to trigger the turn / lazy scissors routine.

Edited March 31, 2019 by EAF19_Marsh

[PatrickAWlson]

You are seeing different responses because there are a huge number of variables involved.  What is the AI skill level?  What kind of plane is the AI flying?  What kind of plane are you flying?  What is the altitude?  What are your relative positions and E states?

 

It seems to me that the AI has been greatly improved and does take all of the above into consideration.  That doesn't mean that it always arrives at the best conclusion, but no doubt it does much better than it used to.  I would go so far as to say that the AI is currently as good or better than any other prop combat sim that I have played (Aces series, Red Baron,  IL2, RoF).

 

What the AI still lacks is a macro plan.  That would take it to a new level in flight sims, because I have never seen AI with a macro plan in ANY flight sim.  Example: the AI will not fly an undamaged plane and think "I'm in a bad position let me escape".  It thinks micro "I'm in a bad position let me do an evasive maneuver".  The first might lead to the AI doing a split S and trying to escape and leave the battle.  the second results in the AI doing a split-S and then trying to climb back into the battle at an E disadvantage.  While that kind of longer range planning would be an amazing addition - well, like I said, I have never seen any flight sim do that.

 

 

[Guest deleted@32648]

I believe I know of one that does 'macro', may be wrong though, it certainly does a good job of looking like it is.

 

I haven't played since November or so last year, maybe things have got better, but filtering out some of the usual 'spun' answers I'm pretty sure its not worth me re-installing just yet.

[blitze]

In career flights - I have come across AI flights where they were Ground Attackers and Cover.  If we left them alone - they would usually leave us alone so we both continue our merry way to targets assigned.

 

Also recently testing Foreated rendering in VR with a 2 x Yak 1B against 2 x 100G's with 2 x Ju52 and those 110's were fighting on the vertical.  I also am noticing AI flying in pairs more often now compared to days of old.  More tactical and less prone to fight to the death as well if they get damaged - they look for outs in the fight so they can escape back to base.

 

They also will try to drag the fight over their ground assets to have AA help them.

 

On the whole they are reasonable to fly against and not super human as I doubt in WW2 pilots on the whole were.  Not like us desk jocks.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

From a personal perspective, if you place the AI aircraft difficulty on Ace they do a hell of a lot more than just turn.

[JonRedcorn]

5 minutes ago, blitze said:

In career flights - I have come across AI flights where they were Ground Attackers and Cover.  If we left them alone - they would usually leave us alone so we both continue our merry way to targets assigned.

 

Also recently testing Foreated rendering in VR with a 2 x Yak 1B against 2 x 100G's with 2 x Ju52 and those 110's were fighting on the vertical.  I also am noticing AI flying in pairs more often now compared to days of old.  More tactical and less prone to fight to the death as well if they get damaged - they look for outs in the fight so they can escape back to base.

 

They also will try to drag the fight over their ground assets to have AA help them.

 

On the whole they are reasonable to fly against and not super human as I doubt in WW2 pilots on the whole were.  Not like us desk jocks.

How are you testing foveated rendering in VR? That's software that is neither implemented in any games or in any headset software. Not sure what you mean by that.

Edited March 31, 2019 by JonRedcorn

[blitze]

15 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

How are you testing foveated rendering in VR? That's software that is neither implemented in any games or in any headset software. Not sure what you mean by that.

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/poll-primarily-to-rtx-card-owners-is-ffr-working-well-for-you/17795/11

 

Implemented Fixed Foreated Rendering in PiTool for Pimax 5K and 8K headsets and Nvidia RTX owners.  Aggressive seems to crash Il2 even with the latest Nvidia Hotfix driver but Balanced works.  Just not that great a frame rate improvement with Balanced where Aggressive near doubles the frame rate but you notice the difference from full rendered to partial rendered in the image.

[JonRedcorn]

5 hours ago, blitze said:

https://forum.pimaxvr.com/t/poll-primarily-to-rtx-card-owners-is-ffr-working-well-for-you/17795/11

 

Implemented Fixed Foreated Rendering in PiTool for Pimax 5K and 8K headsets and Nvidia RTX owners.  Aggressive seems to crash Il2 even with the latest Nvidia Hotfix driver but Balanced works.  Just not that great a frame rate improvement with Balanced where Aggressive near doubles the frame rate but you notice the difference from full rendered to partial rendered in the image.

This works without any software implementation from the game devs? It lowers res on the outside of your display?

[Eisenfaustus]

On 3/31/2019 at 9:20 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

I would go so far as to say that the AI is currently as good or better than any other prop combat sim that I have played (Aces series, Red Baron,  IL2, RoF).

 

Have you played IL2 '46 in the latest patched version? To me AI seems to be much more creative and much more determined to play it's aircraft's strengths straight...

 

And of course there has to be mentioned BoB2WoV! Just Awesome AI.

 

But you are definetly right - taking the complete situation into account and not just certain details would be a great addition indeed!

[blitze]

21 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

This works without any software implementation from the game devs? It lowers res on the outside of your display?

Yes, it is controlled between Nvidia Drivers and Pimax Drivers.

 

That being said, Aggressive FFR is something Il2 at the moment is not happy with.  It crashes when it is set.  Assetto Corsa though has no problems with it.  Balanced and Conservative FFR works with Il2 but not a huge performance boost with them.  Seems raw single threaded computing power is the best option for VR in Il2.

10 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

 

Have you played IL2 '46 in the latest patched version? To me AI seems to be much more creative and much more determined to play it's aircraft's strengths straight...

 

And of course there has to be mentioned BoB2WoV! Just Awesome AI.

 

But you are definetly right - taking the complete situation into account and not just certain details would be a great addition indeed!

Il2 46 AI does not use aircraft flight models that you, the player use.  Il2 BoX series the AI are restricted to the same aircraft flight models as you are.  They thus will perform more realistic maneuvers compared to their 46 AI counterparts.

 

If flying against UFO AI is your ticket - 46 is the way.  IF you would prefer to have the AI suffer the same limitations as you - BoX series is the way to go.  I'll take the later any day, not to mention better aircraft modelling, visually and flight, better world detail, better ballistics and everything else that comes with software that is a decade newer.?

[JtD]

6 minutes ago, blitze said:

Il2 46 AI does not use aircraft flight models that you, the player use.

 

In about every way air combat is concerned, it does.

 

It has for example simplified taxi, take off and landing routines.

[blitze]

You don't seem to comprehend what I am saying about Il2 46.

 

The aircraft you fly is modeled in a much more complex way in 46 than the aircraft AI flies.  The flight model the AI uses is overly simple and hence led to UFO like flight behavior.  This is not the case with the BoX series as your plane and the AI's planes use the same flight model.  AI is not as able to do things outside of the realms of normal flight behavior any more then you as a pilot in the BoX series can.  You and the AI have the same flight limitations pertaining to each and every aircraft.

 

If you think that 46 is the superior product - go and enjoy but don't even think about equating the sim as anything near what BoX il@ sim is as it isn't.  No more than Pong is on the same level of detail or representation of Tennis compared to World Tour Tennis. Ok maybe over exaggerating a bit but it would be interesting to stick 46 AI into BoX AI aircraft and then watch them continually spin into the ground.

[Eisenfaustus]

1 hour ago, blitze said:

Il2 46 AI does not use aircraft flight models that you, the player use.  Il2 BoX series the AI are restricted to the same aircraft flight models as you are.  They thus will perform more realistic maneuvers compared to their 46 AI counterparts.

 

If flying against UFO AI is your ticket - 46 is the way.  IF you would prefer to have the AI suffer the same limitations as you - BoX series is the way to go.  I'll take the later any day, not to mention better aircraft modelling, visually and flight, better world detail, better ballistics and everything else that comes with software that is a decade newer.?

Using the exactly the same FM as the player is no virtue in itself - only if it creates an improved combat experience. For me the BoX AI doesn't do that yet. On the contrary - if simplified AI flight models actually allow for larger unit sizes (IL2 '46 can handle large multi-crew bomber formations with ease) then they actually have an edge over the more complex modelling.

 

I have yet to witness UFO like behaviour in IL2 '46 - friend and foe behave in the air much closer to what I read about WWII airial combat than what I witness in BoX.

 

BoB2WoV also has strictly scripted AI flight models - and still those are among the best single player dogfights I ever played.

 

That said I totally agree that BoX has better FM/DM/CEM and is much much more beautiful than '46 - I like the game. That's why I spent money for more than one part of the series

[blitze]

The original series Il2 AI was known in it day for UFO behavior.  Anyway - I moved on and here I am.  I also don't expect every AI I come across to be Ace level as I really doubt due to the grind nature of war that the majority of pilots were capable.  Many were lucky to get in the air and back down without busting up their plane.  Then again, when you do get an AI with ace ability, it gives a good run for ones money here.

 

I fail to see the constant merry go round behavior that people seem to claim is what AI always does in this sim.  The aim of AI is not to be the best at what it does but to appear convincing in the scenario for which it is performing in.  I think that this is what's important and rare does the online experience equate an authentic representation of what it might have been like flying a mission in WW2.  There does seem to be a rather lot of "Experten" flying though ?

[Eisenfaustus]

I'm talking about 4.13.3 - there the original UFO behaviour is gone. I absolutely agree - not every AI fighter needs to be an ace. And I also agree: The aim of AI in a combat Sim should mostly be to creat the illusion they are fighting men. And if BoX AI does that for you - great! Doesn't for me unfortunatly.

 

Hostile AI:

They have perfect situational awareness - a surprise bounce on hostile fighters is not possible. (which was the most common kind of air victory by any side in WWII)

They have perfect control of their aircraft - no mismanaging the engine in the heat of combat, no unprecise maneuvering due to combat stress - even in damaged aircraft they don't lose control...

They don't work together - any cooperation seems random

They have a low will to survive - they seldom run to fight another day (getting better though - I have seen BoX AI leaving combat recently - so that seems to get better!)

 

And if you don't have the enemy AI constantly turning on the deck, are you flying red blue most of the time? I've red that 109 start to make good use of the vertical - in my moscow career in a 109 f2 the enemy Mig-3s always come down to the endless circle... If it were at least sharp turns or scissors in an atempt to get on my six...

 

Friendly AI:

Ahistoric formation - a four ship vic as in BoX is no finger four

Ahistoric tactics - never fighting in pairs

No possibility to assign different tasks to different flight members as leader

No leadership from flight leader after combat started

On the other hand immersion breaking calls during combat ("I attack fighter 6km to north" - How did he see him?)

 

Don't get me wrong - neither IL2 '46 nor BoB2WoV fully do this. In my opinion they just come closer than BoX at the moment. But I'm aware that the Ai keeps steadily improving and I'm keeping my hopes up!

[blitze]

I have seen AI fighting in pairs but yes, formation flying leaves a lot to be desired.  Especially for Axis AI flyers early in the war.

 

There is more work to be done but it isn't the turn fest people make it out to be.