FW and Spit easier to de wing than the rest.

[Rei-sen]

Yeah, 3.008 - 3.009 had perfect DM. Here it is in a nutshell:

23 hits from 20mm to shoot down a Yak, anyone?

Edited April 1, 2019 by Arthur-A

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

When it’s difficult people complain. When it’s easier people complain. Imagine being a Dev trying to find the middle ground in all of these shenanigans!

[D3adCZE]

If I understand this correctly, some people are complaining that 20mm or 30mm minengschoss grenades are doing structural damage as they were designed to do so. Am I right? 

 

From my personal point of view, we have rather precise DM. .50cal API are doing damage to critical components and you must aim them properly. German 13mms as well.

 

German Minengeschoss rounds are doing structural damage as they should, so dewings, loses of control surfaces etc are OK. It took average 20 20mm hits to down a B17, it is rather interesting that some believe, that P47 should and must survive more than B17.  What we see in the video, where Sheriff downs a Jug, is 2.2 second burst where most of the rounds fired hit the intended target. Now let's do the math: MK151/20 has rate of fire from 680 to 740 RPM. Lets put it at 700RPM. That means we have (700/60)*2.2 for 1 cannon. That is 25.6 rounds fired. Do not forget that MG131 was shooting as well, that is 900RPM. This gives us (900/60)*2.2 for one heavy machinegun. That is 33 rounds. However Dora has 2 cannons and 2 HMGs, that makes 51.2 20mm shells fired and 66 13mm shells fired. Sheriff fired from range ~130 meters to ~90 meters with not many rounds missing, so I think it is reasonable to count with the fact that 85% of the projectiles could hit the target. Most of us are virtual aces with godlike accuracy as well. That means 43.52 hits with 20mm minengeschoss and 56.1 hits with 13mm HMG. With the hit placement we can see that Sheriff aimed precisely at the left wing root, then moved over the canopy to kill the pilot and then continued to the right wing. P47 should have damaged: left wing controls, flaps on left wins were shot off, compartments for ~1500 .50 cal rounds were definitely hit as well, probably exploded(due to the explosive nature of minengeschoss), cordite does like the fire and sparks after all, turbocharger pipelines should be gone, therefore loss of manifold pressure above supercharger critical altitude, avionics placed behind pilot(radio, water tanks etc) should be destroyed as well and right wing should be ementalised(yes, like the cheese). This 7.5 tonnes of steel as a bonus were under aerodynamic load not to mention the attempted evasive maneuver we could see there. There's no way any wing could hold this therefore I find this representation of reality rather correct + the pilot should have been dead or heavily wounded at least, not surviving the bailout.

 

Soviet cannons are mixture of both AP and HE, where they work +- correctly(finally). AP will wreck your engine and HE will wreck your control surfaces and structure.

Brittish hispanos are well represented well too, as they are similar(a bit more powerful with better ballistics) to 20mm minengeschoss.

 

If anyone find any mistake in my post, please, feel free to quote it and correct it.

[SCG_motoadve]

2 hours ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

If I understand this correctly, some people are complaining that 20mm or 30mm minengschoss grenades are doing structural damage as they were designed to do so. Am I right? 

 

From my personal point of view, we have rather precise DM. .50cal API are doing damage to critical components and you must aim them properly. German 13mms as well.

 

German Minengeschoss rounds are doing structural damage as they should, so dewings, loses of control surfaces etc are OK. It took average 20 20mm hits to down a B17, it is rather interesting that some believe, that P47 should and must survive more than B17.  What we see in the video, where Sheriff downs a Jug, is 2.2 second burst where most of the rounds fired hit the intended target. Now let's do the math: MK151/20 has rate of fire from 680 to 740 RPM. Lets put it at 700RPM. That means we have (700/60)*2.2 for 1 cannon. That is 25.6 rounds fired. Do not forget that MG131 was shooting as well, that is 900RPM. This gives us (900/60)*2.2 for one heavy machinegun. That is 33 rounds. However Dora has 2 cannons and 2 HMGs, that makes 51.2 20mm shells fired and 66 13mm shells fired. Sheriff fired from range ~130 meters to ~90 meters with not many rounds missing, so I think it is reasonable to count with the fact that 85% of the projectiles could hit the target. Most of us are virtual aces with godlike accuracy as well. That means 43.52 hits with 20mm minengeschoss and 56.1 hits with 13mm HMG. With the hit placement we can see that Sheriff aimed precisely at the left wing root, then moved over the canopy to kill the pilot and then continued to the right wing. P47 should have damaged: left wing controls, flaps on left wins were shot off, compartments for ~1500 .50 cal rounds were definitely hit as well, probably exploded(due to the explosive nature of minengeschoss), cordite does like the fire and sparks after all, turbocharger pipelines should be gone, therefore loss of manifold pressure above supercharger critical altitude, avionics placed behind pilot(radio, water tanks etc) should be destroyed as well and right wing should be ementalised(yes, like the cheese). This 7.5 tonnes of steel as a bonus were under aerodynamic load not to mention the attempted evasive maneuver we could see there. There's no way any wing could hold this therefore I find this representation of reality rather correct + the pilot should have been dead or heavily wounded at least, not surviving the bailout.

 

Soviet cannons are mixture of both AP and HE, where they work +- correctly(finally). AP will wreck your engine and HE will wreck your control surfaces and structure.

Brittish hispanos are well represented well too, as they are similar(a bit more powerful with better ballistics) to 20mm minengeschoss.

 

If anyone find any mistake in my post, please, feel free to quote it and correct it.

Never seen real guncam footage of a P47, FW, Me 110 de wing.

and you do a quick mission shoot them down , and half of those are de wing from the root.

 

Not realistic at all and gives an arcade feel.

 

if it happened in real life 50% of the time why there is not a single  real WWII video showing de wing from the root.

Worst immersion killer for IL2 BOX.

 

Dont want difficult , just realistic and not arcade.

 

[Dakpilot]

Maybe real pilots don't pull high G when damaged. Most guncam show target aircraft in gentle manoeuvres 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[D3adCZE]

Motoadve: dewinging a plane with API is near to impossible, but dewinging a plane with minengeschoss, a grenade designed to acomplish such task is completely different matter. I have never seen a guncam with such a precise gunnery we have in the game and even in these recordings, after one or two 20mm hits the wing lost most of it's ability to provide lift and it was almost impossible to fight anymore. Therefore many pilots bailed before theur wings fell off. Pilots in this game do not care about their lifes and will stay in their metal cofin as long as that thing can keep in the air.

 

Dakpilot: Thank you, I cannot agree more.

[SCG_motoadve]

Just does not look realistic, if people like de wings because they feel the guns are powerfull enough, the graphic representation should show something different than wing coming off clean at the root.

Gives an arcadish feeling, you can say whatever trying to convince yourself you are an ace and its realustic, it is NOT at all.

 

 

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:55 PM, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Why are the wings of this 2 planes so weak in the game?

Easy to de wing at the root,  other planes not as much even 109s, Yaks, Migs.

 

Is de wing at the root a realistic effect? I dont see many videos of real guncam showing this effect, I have seen half wings blown away, but not at the root like we have in game.

 

 

Could It be you mean the mark IX? An simple explanation would be the fact that you are mostly getting hit by 30 mm or double 20 + 13 mm when the plane is available.

If you look at some RAF test photos it is actually not unrealistic that 30mm will dewing this plane quite easily.

 

If you mean that anything carrying a single 20mm, the I am very skeptical of your statement that the spit is easy to dewing. I find it very sturdy actually.

 

 

As far as the 190 goes I also have a different experience.

 

As far as the graphical representation is concerned, I totally agree with you

Edited April 7, 2019 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[Bremspropeller]

de Wing - sounds like a cool french aviator's name, non?

[unreasonable]

6 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

de Wing - sounds like a cool french aviator's name, non?

 

de Wing is on de Boid.

[E69_Qpassa_VR]

On 3/30/2019 at 3:55 PM, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Why are the wings of this 2 planes so weak in the game?

Easy to de wing at the root,  other planes not as much even 109s, Yaks, Migs.

 

Is de wing at the root a realistic effect? I dont see many videos of real guncam showing this effect, I have seen half wings blown away, but not at the root like we have in game.

 

This thread is so funny, check my bug report

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/45229-fw190-breaks-heavily-after-hitting-a-spitfire-which-does-not/