Zooropa_Fly Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 Oh crap I've missed some juicy posts. I won't be a chute shoooter myself (unless it's Planky), but it's something I expect some will do. It'll tick me off no doubts when it happens to me, but so does getting murdered after the shoot down message has appeared, and a few other things.. That doesn't give me the right to moralise over how others should play in such contexts. And if shooting chutes was a common historical occurance... 1
US213_Talbot Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 13 minutes ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said: Some of the personal attacks on Talbot here I think are less than deserved. While I agree that the whole "I hate JG1" and the "dirty Bosche" thing from the 103rd rubs me the wrong way sometimes, Talbot is a fun dude to fly with/against. And it's been cool to see him consistently getting better in the SPAD. It's all an act on history and flat out propaganda. Take the latest paper, all those numbers are completely over the top made up. Wait till the article from "Mrs. Elizabeth Turner of the Worcester County Womens Club" submits an article speaking of "Americans fighting for the german". What's hilarious is when I'm flying German, I start the same routine in on the entente... Again, you guys have "Ricky Recon shot for desertion", I love that. I see that as camaraderie. Heck, I've seen you on your stream use my SPAD skin to get shot up. I love it! Keep it up because if you and your friends cant rib each other then what friends are they? I guess the kind you kill in their chute???? 1 1
US213_Talbot Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Bottom line is that paper, or this video, is not directed at any one individual unless I consider them a friend and mention them specifically. Do I really think J30 Hangman and Mein intentionally bomb orphanages and churches and are dirty huns, of course not. Sure they some of the deadliest pilots we fight? Sure are. Both were said and you just filter through the [edited] to get to a compliment. [edited] Edited March 28, 2019 by SYN_Haashashin Language and not needed
JGr2/J5_Hotlead Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, US103_Talbot said: It's all an act on history and flat out propaganda. Take the latest paper, all those numbers are completely over the top made up. Wait till the article from "Mrs. Elizabeth Turner of the Worcester County Womens Club" submits an article speaking of "Americans fighting for the german". What's hilarious is when I'm flying German, I start the same routine in on the entente... Again, you guys have "Ricky Recon shot for desertion", I love that. I see that as camaraderie. Heck, I've seen you on your stream use my SPAD skin to get shot up. I love it! Keep it up because if you and your friends cant rib each other then what friends are they? I guess the kind you kill in their chute???? I hear ya mate! I shall be awaiting the venerable Mrs. Turner's opinions with much amusement! I guess the thing that rubbed me the wrong way is that occasionally I couldn't tell if it was a joke or serious. I'm all good with ribbing. ? All in all, it's a lot of fun to fly with you guys! I'm glad your group exists to spice up the Allied side of life. We were getting tired of having no one to shoot down. ? 1 1
JG1_Butzzell Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 S! All Shooting a person in a chute is nothing but murder! Only pilots with no honor or chivalry would do such a thing. Recent incident reported to Geneva Convention man. After the war, there will be trails for crimes. These people will be found and tried. Firing squad..........Ready............Aim...........Fire! Another Talbot bites the dust. 3
HiIIBiIIy Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 Talbot are you any relation to Arlo Guthrie? "I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I want to kill! I want to see Blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth! Eat dead, burnt bodies! I Mean Kill. Kill!" Arlo Guthrie
No.23_Triggers Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said: We were getting tired of having no one to shoot down. ? What changed? You run into some low Brisfits? Surely you can't mean us Edited March 28, 2019 by US103_Larner 2
US213_Talbot Posted March 28, 2019 Author Posted March 28, 2019 It's all a joke. Every bit of it buddy. ? Looks like I got orders to return the the HMS Reindeer for cabin boy duties! 1 1
US103_Hunter Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) The 103rd tries to maintain the history as much as possible in all aspects of the game and interaction. When I created the squadron in the fall of 2016 that was my goal, I said to myself I would make it exactly the way I wanted it and if there were any like minded folks out there then maybe they would find the 103rd. Surprisingly lots of folks are interested in the same type of history that I was. We use historic names, organization, reports, claiming systems, skins etc.. We try to use the terms of the times and maintain the spirit of the US Air Service in 1918. There was a lot of propaganda (on both sides) and we get a kick out of reproducing that stuff. Talbot's newspaper articles are based on actual ones and have the same layout and format and generally the same language used at the time. We take dying very serious and do not throw our lives away in useless dogfights. Our Ideal kill is one pass on a hun pilot who does not know we are there, because that was the preferred method of the successful pilots of the period. 1918 was not 1915 and both sides realized the pilot that is dead is not going to kill you or your friends tomorrow. I think shooting parachutists while not generally condoned, will be a consequence of the combat situation. If someone rams one of my wingmen or kills them in their seat or sets them on fire and then tries to bail out, I will make no guarantees on the bailers safety. If we flame a fokker and he bails to save his life we will probably let him go with a salute. This is how we will look at it, especially considering that the allies only option is to ride their plane down to their death or jump without a chute and be impaled on a fence like Lufbery did. So no we won't be shooting chutes for the sheer bloodymindedness of it. if we choose to flame a cute there will be a good reason for it. We are always looking for like minded historically interested pilots to join our ranks. Click on my signature below to link to our website. S! to all our friends and foes alike. Hunter Edited March 28, 2019 by US103_Hunter 3 2
JGr2/J5_Klugermann Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, JG1_Hotlead_J10 said: We were getting tired of having no one to shoot down. ? 58 minutes ago, US103_Larner said: What changed? You run into some low Brisfits? Surely you can't mean us Bill isn't flying much these days 1
No.23_Triggers Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 45 minutes ago, Klugermann said: Bill isn't flying much these days No more bill maxes...
=IRFC=Gecko Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 Chivalry, 1. The ideal qualifications of a knight, such as courtesy, generosity, valour, dexterity in arms etc. 2. The rules and customs of a medieval knighthood. 3. Gallant warriors or gentlemen. 4. Good manners, consideration of others. How does one apply this ideal in combat. To be honest you can't apply them in any meaningful way by definition warfare requires a winner and to win you have to batter the opposition into submission. Yet as humans we come up with this concept of Chivalry. It is against a code of ethics (nearly always unwritten) to, for example, to shoot a pilot in a parachute. But that pilot can drop bombs on cities full of non combatants, strafe unarmed vehicles, trains and vessels of all descriptions many of which are not able to defend themselves. A Pilot can bounce another plane and shoot the pilot in the back. I'm sorry but when did he open the cockpit walk across his wing climb onto his enemies wing stroll casually across it tap on the canopy and say 'I'm about to shoot you in the back please be aware of your impending doom accept it and don't change course or deviate as that means I may have to shoot you some more'. Why does this concept of chivalry even exist in combat. Shooting down a plane but leaving the pilot to survive and fly again is not much more than stupidity at it's best when it comes to combat logic and winning a war. The airframe in itself is of no consequence - the pilot is. Why do we recoil at shooting a pilot in a parachute when ground soldiers deliberately target tank crews (especially when bailing out of a burning vehicle), RO's who carry the radio, PARA Troopers while they float down essentially as a slow moving target to the ground, identify leaders of soldiers in combat and kill them as a priority etc etc etc. Why are these acts committed, simply because those skilled soldiers take time to train and the skills they posses are what makes them valuable. Why then is a pilot sacrosanct, is it more the brotherhood of pilots or more the fear of what we do to them they will do in return. 'But the pilot is helpless he can't defend himself'. This argument is floored as neither can the civilian in a city being bombed, the crew of a burning tank bailing out, the crew of a submarine being depth charged, or a merchant vessel being torpedoed, a cities inhabitants while it is being shelled and the list goes on and on. But somehow out of all this it is wrong to shoot a pilot in a parachute. In WWI I think it was more ethics that drove the decision by individual pilots to not shoot a pilot in a parachute. WWII I think it was more fear of retribution that drove the convention of not shooting a pilot/crew member in a parachute. Once one side would have commenced killing in parachutes as policy it would have resulted in escalation to all sides doing it as a matter of policy. An unsustainable situation for all sides but one that would have resulted in one side having air superiority while the other side trained more lambs for the slaughter. For all those in here who are saying it's a dog act and low etc, think to yourself have you ever strafed a clearly damaged plane landing out or kept shooting until you get a 'Pilot Killed' message in game even after the shoot down message has come up. If your answer is yes and for 99% people who fly in these games it is most certainly is yes, then you have forfeited your right to comment on a player shooting a parachute as your action (mine as well) is and was no different - the pilot was and is essentially defenceless. Ultimately if the pilot has been shot down in my territory and captured (and it ends his in game streak) then I won't waste any more time on him. If it is over his territory the question now becomes 'why wouldn't I'. The pilot you let live today kills your or one of yours tomorrow. If we get to the point where we are in DiD like Bloody April or FiF then I will every time I see a chute deployed the same as those German pilots will hound me out of the sky until they get either a pilot killed message or my plane breaks up in flight. Food for thought. Shot 1
J5_Gamecock Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 Ummm... if I'm not mistaken, the dead guy in the chute can still respawn right? 1
=IRFC=Gecko Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 Yes he can, the same as the pixel pilot in the pixel plane that leaves a long following pixel smoke trail while he pixel burns to death or the plane that pixel breaks up and the pixel pilot falls to his pixel death. Shot 1
Guest deleted@83466 Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Quote For all those in here who are saying it's a dog act and low etc, think to yourself have you ever strafed a clearly damaged plane landing out or kept shooting until you get a 'Pilot Killed' message in game even after the shoot down message has come up. If your answer is yes and for 99% people who fly in these games it is most certainly is yes, then you have forfeited your right to comment on a player shooting a parachute as your action (mine as well) is and was no different - the pilot was and is essentially defenceless. I think you posted your comment in the wrong thread, but that's okay. I've certainly kept shooting at a plane that was "landing out" because I hadn't yet gotten the kill message. I consider that case to be fair game until the score is awarded. Most people do. On the rest, I've kept shooting at a plane that I did get the shootdown message on, because I thought the guy was a jerk, or he had done the same thing to me and it was payback. I've strafed chutes. I'll do these things again I'm sure, because there is never a shortage of jerks. But make no mistake about it, by doing so, I was intentionally telling them to "go ^*&&^ themselves", or insert your favorite tell off. It is a sign of disrespect and it especially can be very personal depending on who is involved. If somebody has strafed you, or is some annoying troll, I don't really have a problem with putting them in their place by showing them that disrespect, but as people doing it casually because it's some "fun" thing to do, or it's "just a game", or just because they can, the rest is just rationalizing nonsense. It's not a good atmosphere when people are doing this. Have I "forfeited my right to comment". Not at all. I've seen enough of the this behavoir in your servers to know how a lot of people feel about it. It doesn't go over well, and it makes a lot of enemies, because like I said, each time you do it it sends a message of personal disrespect in a very small community. What other purpose does it serve? And in tournaments? You barely have enough people to play as it is. Instead of killing off a guy that set aside his Saturday afternoon to play the tournament, so that he can't play anymore, you should just be thankful that you have a handful of people willing to populate a server, and give you someone to play against at all. As I said in a comment somewhere earlier, Flying Circus offers the chance to not repeat some of the same behaviors that caused many problems with the same very small group of people in the past. If this is the direction that guys like you want it to go in, have at it. And good luck. Edited March 29, 2019 by SeaSerpent
=IRFC=Gecko Posted March 28, 2019 Posted March 28, 2019 No this is the right thread as clearly indicated by the responses to the footage shown. By your own words you cannot judge anyone else. One the points I was trying to get across was the doing of it and more how it came to be, they why of it, if you will. Each player must make a decision on if they will or will not. To say that this behaviour is wrong is unjustifiable if you yourself do it by another method. That is another point I was making. So yes if you do in fact shoot a player landing a clearly damaged aircraft that has already had a shoot down message or kill a pilot even though the shoot down message has come up you really can't argue against the person who shoots you while in your parachute - you have essentially committed the same act as he. The 'but I'm helpless' mantra works in those cases as well. As GameCock says you can respawn. Trupo and yourself are right it does lead to ill will amongst the players. It will happen you cannot avoid it. Unlike some who will take the high moral ground and say I won't shoot a Parachute it will make no difference if they keep shooting after a clear shoot down message you are in fact once again doing no different but you can justify it in another way. If you read carefully my comment about when and why it is in fact valid the same as those within BA or FiF who chase you all the way to the ground to ensure your death - I do not see any difference in the act and what is more I wouldn't expect differently as both sides know DiD impacts on the play. Shot.
Guest deleted@83466 Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 "Trupo and yourself are right it does lead to ill will amongst the players." I think that's all that really needs to be said then. Flying Circus is your game. It's not mine....at least not yet...because I'm waiting to see all about how much "ill will amongst the players" there will be and what the atmosphere is like. Guys like you, who are getting in on the ground floor of the new multiplayer community that forms around Flying Circus, will have the opportunity to set the tone for those that follow. And when I'm seeing people trying to normalize and rationalize behavior that they --know-- will cause ill will, I can't say I'm encouraged by what I see.
HiIIBiIIy Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said: "Trupo and yourself are right it does lead to ill will amongst the players." I think that's all that really needs to be said then. Flying Circus is your game. It's not mine....at least not yet...because I'm waiting to see all about how much "ill will amongst the players" there will be and what the atmosphere is like. Guys like you, who are getting in on the ground floor of the new multiplayer community that forms around Flying Circus, will have the opportunity to set the tone for those that follow. And when I'm seeing people trying to normalize and rationalize behavior that they --know-- will cause ill will, I can't say I'm encouraged by what I see. If things like this keeps you from joining FC , that's a good thing.
Guest deleted@83466 Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 Yeah, that would be great, except I'm just one guy you're talking to here and now. I'm not the only one reading some of the sentiments being expressed and I'm most defiinitely not the only one who feels the same way. Go read some of the other thousand threads that concerning chute killing, tournaments, or server etiquette for IL-2. It's a bit ironic that there is also a current thread asking "How to get more simmers into WWI". If you think this is the way, or you think that you yourself are a good ambassador for the genre, Hillbilly, I wish you luck.
=IRFC=Gecko Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 SeaSerpent, I truly get your point of view and you are correct, as I said, but this community will largely be built on the community that flew in RoF and its predecessors and that baggage will include grudges and dirty laundry, no matter what people wish for or say otherwise. I am in fact asking simple questions. Why is a pilot in a parachute sacrosanct? Chivalry - is it misplaced in combat? What is the difference between shooting a wounded/dying pilot still in a plane which he is desperately trying to land, or the act of shooting a pilot in a parachute who is also helpless. We draw a line which is not always clearly defined or even logical on ethical behaviour. Hence the reason I gave examples of what is considered normal combat, which demonstrates no chivalry at all, but the act is no different than if you shot a pilot in a parachute. For some reason gunning down helpless tank soldiers as they desperately try to decamp from a burning vehicle is acceptable but shooting a pilot in a parachute isn't. You can shoot paratroopers as they deploy with any calibre weapon from the ground but not a pilot. Why are these questions relevant - because we apply that sense of right and wrong both consciously and subconsciously and overlay it onto a game on a screen and how each individual acts is a reflection of societies values and the individuals teachings. We are in fact applying a standard not just on ourselves but projecting that standard on others. If you do project your view of right and wrong on others online - well we all know that will end badly. Why do we get so passionate/upset over pixels on a screen - because we invest in it, some way more than others! I am in fact not attempting to set a tone of right and wrong merely pointing out the inconsistency being applied. While playing in competitions like Flanders in Flames or Bloody April where dead is dead will I shoot crew in parachutes - yes I will - why because my side is trying to win and chivalry, no matter how nice, will not help me win. On the flipside I can guarantee that those I'm playing against aren't likely to show me an mercy either. Both sides want to win, have fun while doing it but accept the necessity of such actions. Do any of us actually like it especially when on the receiving end, no. Just accept it has and will continue to happen and move on. Outside these comps in open servers it will also happen - such is life. At least I am being honest about my approach. Regards Shot
unreasonable Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 I took the video to be clearly comic in intent, given the introduction, and it did make me laugh. +1 for good choice of music and tight editing: makes an enjoyable change from the endless tiresome "look at me scoring in MP" videos set to trashy heavy metal. I expect the usual petty squabbling in this thread from the usual suspects is much more likely to put off newcomers to the game than the OP's video. 1
Legioneod Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 17 minutes ago, unreasonable said: I took the video to be clearly comic in intent, given the introduction, and it did make me laugh. +1 for good choice of music and tight editing: makes an enjoyable change from the endless tiresome "look at me scoring in MP" videos set to trashy heavy metal. I expect the usual petty squabbling in this thread from the usual suspects is much more likely to put off newcomers to the game than the OP's video. Agreed, I immediately understood it as comical. Not sure why people get so easily offended. War is war, this kind of thing happened irl many times.
Guest deleted@83466 Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 Quote At least I am being honest about my approach. Are you? You are being too philosophical about this. This isn't about "simulated chivalry". It isn't about real world ethics, or real world morals. It's about whether you want people to have fun playing Flying circus, or would you rather they just become alienated by all the BS that's going on and find something else to do with their leisure time. It's really that simple. Not everyone is a World-War-One-Or-Bust type, and they have a lot of options right now in the world of flight sim. A lot of potential Multiplayer FC players would be just as content flying a Mustang or 262 in Bodenplatte, and they simply don't need to spend their time MP FC if it has overabundance of the kind of behavior you're attempting to rationalize. So behave as you see fit....
US103_Baer Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 (edited) The video was obviously meant to be fun. How can that be misconstrued? And we've talked about parachute shooting before on this forum. During WW1 it's historically accurate for some Entente pilots to participate. I quoted Taffy Jones in that thread, where he says it did cause arguments in the Mess but being unburdened by a Public School education he felt quite ok with it. Edit: For clarity that's not an endorsement the practice wholesale, simply that it could happen in some context and no-one should surprised or offended Edited March 29, 2019 by US103_Baer 1
Panzerlang Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 The only reason I could imagine being pissed off about being shot in my chute is if I was playing in a DiD online campaign/war and it meant the end of a high-kill pilot. However, if I was German and coming down behind my lines I'd recognize the historical validity of it. Would I do it? No, because I'm one of those medal hunting playboys who couldn't care less about who wins the war, I just want targets to shoot at. ?
BMA_Hellbender Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 Are we really still having this discussion? Whatever fills the gap until the next update, I suppose. I don't care what your reasons for it are, if I'm in a chute I'm expecting you to shoot me. If you don't, then I'm grateful for it, in the same way that I'm grateful when you let me land a crippled plane. I just don't expect it. I don't expect chivalry, honour or kumbaya. That is detrimental to good dogfights, which should be all-out, every time. If you're into WWI multiplayer flightsims I already respect you far more than the general populace, no matter how much of a jerk you're trying to make yourself out to be. You're all big softies, anyway, and you know it. To me the only thing that really matters is that at the end of the night, you can look back and feel you've had fun without too much frustration. That's the best guarantee you'll be back another night to do this all over again, and I don't end up having to shoot at AI instead. That's why I, at least, won't shoot at chutes, because I don't think I should take out my own frustrations on you. But again, that is your own choice to make. 3 1
=IRFC=Gecko Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 You will note I am talking about shooting parachutes when playing in Flanders in Flames and Bloody April, something that will not happen for some years I think in Flying Circus. Considering we are lacking a few essential items at the moment - you know things like mmmmm a map, two seaters, that ability to actually conduct recon or arty mission and I guess a few other essential elements that I have probably missed you know time appropriate plane sets - no late 20's Russian two seat pretenders, minor issues you might say, teething troubles! So it's safe to say that I won't be shooting any parachutes soon. For the most part when I realise someone is pretty much finished I tend to let them go (note I said for the MOST part). But once again other than saying you won't do it - the question remains why is doing A acceptable and doing B not? Saying it is a low act or you won't do it isn't explaining your why! The video was misconstrued because of the very reasons I have outlined - people invest in the game and apply real life ethics to it. I am questioning the ethics being applied and why we have this perception in the first place. When I watched it I took it for exactly what it was, not serious a bit of a laugh, poking fun at etc etc etc, clearly by the response it generated some didn't. Yes I have fun in game even when I am being hounded to death - it's actually part of the game. Accept it or don't play it. I like a knife fight for the most part not flying around at 15000ft for hours waiting for something to eventuate. But my version of fun may not be yours. Once again I'm pretty sure your safe seeing how FC at the moment is nothing more than Fast Food and will remain so until substantial content arrives. Shot
Zooropa_Fly Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the FC action fast anything at the moment. One new server has just popped up with more action.. but my Dolphin ended up fighting x18 DVIIf's at once - maybe a touch too 'fast' that one !! But the parachute thing.. you watch it and think "oh no he's not is he.." At the same time, anyone who made the assumption that it was from MP and maybe there was some poor noob on the end of the chute who'll never play again because of it.. made a mistake. I don't think anyone need put disclaimers up with their vids to explain that "no human controlled pixels were harmed in the making of this production !" S!
Trooper117 Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 AI in a parachute?... when in game would I shoot a 'helpless' AI pilot?... no, never have never will, I see it as a low thing to do. I wouldn't do it in real life and so it naturally follows I wouldn't do it in game. But hey, that's me. MP... definitely would not stoop so low and possibly piss someone off. I used to play an awful lot of MP years ago with the old IL2... I was shot down online many times and was never killed in my chute. Would I have been pissed off if someone had chute killed me? probably... I know for sure I would be looking for that bastage every time I was online, just to crash into him and spoil his fun too... but again, that's me. I'm an 'eye for an eye' man Yet, strangely enough, getting vulched didn't bother me, it was more common than a big bag of common things during the war... work that out ? 1
HiIIBiIIy Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 I can not believe we are still beating this dead horse chute.
J2_Steve Posted March 29, 2019 Posted March 29, 2019 I know this is a joke vid and Talbot has got a few bites with his bait, but I'd hate to see shooting chutes as acceptable online. I kind of like the gentleman's way of doing things in WW1 sims. 1
HiIIBiIIy Posted March 30, 2019 Posted March 30, 2019 (edited) [edited] 5. Moderators oversee the different sections of the forum and they have the right to edit and delete posts or close the entire topic without explanation 7. Comments containing profanity, personal insults, accusations of cheating, excessive rudeness, vulgarity, drug propaganda, political and religious discussion and propaganda, all manifestations of Nazism and racist statements, calls to overthrow governments by force, inciting ethnic hatred, humiliation of persons of a particular gender, sexual orientation or religion are not allowed and will result in a ban.Violations of this rule will result in the following: First offense - 3 days ban on entry Edited March 30, 2019 by SYN_Haashashin
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