Off topic from Questions for Developers

[RedSkyTank]

Congrats guys, hope the new merged teams mesh like clock-work.

 

I'm tad concerned about the release date, early 14 ? Don't forget, quicker release (fewer planes) = quicker $$$$$, with more $$$$ for patches / DLCs (with planes).

 

Anyway, all the best, i'll be waiting. How about some new pictures ?

 

RST

 

BTW, I plan to buy a Microsoft Surface Pro early next year, so I'll be able to test CLOD on it. If CLOD works then Stalingrad too ??

Edited December 11, 2012 by RedSkyTank

[startrekmike]

Surely basic model assets would be usable. Yes it would mean reworking them to fit to the new engine requirements, but at some stage a model is a raw model, waiting to be configured in a way the engine can use it. It would be a shame to waste all the asset production that went into CoD.

 

 

  That is my hope, I mean, it is not like we don't have a upcoming channel map to fly spit's and 109's over.

[89-]

Firstly, congratulations to all of us on these great news! And of course is it awesome to hear the real life Cinderella story with IL2's finest squad Flying Barans now taking the helm of Il2 itself :D Well done VikS, Loft and Co! 

 

 

 

Will the RoF engine benefit from any of the development being made in the making of BoS?  I'm mostly thinking about the current object limit in RoF missions etc.

 

This is a major question as Stalingrad was a huge ground war!

Edited December 11, 2012 by -89-

[csThor]

 Will there be a merge of the new game to Cliffs of Dover as promised? 

Ahem! As the FAQ points out ...

 

Q. Will BOS install over CLOD as promised by previous management?

A. Sorry it will not, BOS will be based on a completely different engine and be a completely different product line.

 

[=BKHZ=Tree_UK]

I think they have the ban feature here too...don't get too crazy

 

It's disappointing what has happened to Cliffs of Dover, but hopefully this new beginning with Jason at the helm will be built on communication and honesty, and I think it will be, I have faith in the man. 

[louisv]

Well that is great news, but...

 

CEM ?

 

Clickable cockpit (complete, unlike CloD) ?

 

Transfer of CloD aircrafts ?

 

Congrats 777, nice move and Merry Chritmas and a happy new (very busy) new year !

 

Lou

 

[Zappatime]

Great news, lets hope we get the best of both sims from this much anticipated merger, glad to see Jason at the helm, a good communicator, good luck to all the joint team in these tough times!

 

Q. Will this merger affect the release date of the channel map and felixstowe?

 

[Pudfark]

Just my two cent question?

Coops?

Please.

[csThor]

Thanks, Jason. As I said before if you need help in researching the Luftwaffe or Wehrmacht don't hesitate to ask. I may be able to help out with unit emblems as well - I made most of the german emblems in CloD after all.

[Juri_JS]

A question concerning the time scale and area covered by BoS:

Will it only show the battle of Stalingrad or the whole German summer offensive of 1942 (Fall Blau)? Which would, for example, also include the fighting around Rostov and Voronezh, in the northern Caucasus and the Kuban region.
 

[Juri_JS]

 

1. It will have a career system the details of which are not clear as we are still designing it.

2. The ME will probably be very similar, it is very powerful. Whether we change the interface or not is something I don't know. If you are interested in learning how to make missions, I suggest learning how to make them in ROF. Some really cool, unique stuff can be made with our current ME. We know some don't like the interface, but changing that is a huge task.

 

Jason, my only real issue with ROF and it's mission editor is, that I can only add single player missions to the game, but not my own campaigns. In my opinion the user-made campaigns are the main reason why the old Il-2 is still played by so many people after all these years and I hope BoS will offer campaign builders the same opportunities they have in Il-2 1946.

[Original_Uwe]

Wow this is just great!

From the first failed release of CoD, I had hoped that a partnership with 777 would happen. Today, my dreams came true!

 

All Id like to add is that I, for one, BEG THAT STEAM IS NOT INVOLVED! PLEASE! NO STEAM!!!

[Skinny]

Best news I have heard yet.

 

Agreed

[easyTarget]

I can't prevent people from making comparisons, but we're not here to make a CLOD clone sequel. We're making something new and a product that namely works out of the box. We have limited resources, time and budget to make something worthwhile. You see it as a step backward and I see it as a design decision based on many factors. If we don't have clickable cockpits, but good engine management will it really be the end of the world? Plus, some of these technical issues are decided by Loft and the technical team and I support the team's decisions. Feature creep and trying to do too much has killed many a flight-sim. We do our best to be ambitious, yet achieve our goals. Not everyone will approve of every design decision we make and as we learned with ROF, we must focus on the overall goal of making a well-functioning, fun product that has most of what everybody wants. It's a pickle we face everyday.

 

Jason

That's what i thought. Well said.I hope that we all get what we wish for

[56RAF_klem]

What is your business model going to be like?

 

The FAQ already says you need to pay for additional content, but does that imply a scheme exactly like RoF where every new airplane is offered individually?

Or larger packs that are released less frequently and focussed on different periods of the air war?

 

Can we in that case also assume that the base content will be freeware?

 

Jason, I believe this is very important especially for on-line play and scenarios/campaigns (I don't know if they happen in RoF).

 

One of the potential problems with purchasing different aircraft piecemeal is for online players, especially where scenario play is involved. If many aircraft are added at extra cost some guys may not want or be able to afford them. Of course it will depend on how much they cost.

 

The problem then is they may be prevented from playing in some campaigns where a/c they don't have are essential to the mission. I bought many aircraft for RoF and still found myself falling behind my buddies. Its one of the reasons I stopped flying RoF.

 

You say the model will be different from but similar to RoF. I hope this means that you will package-release contemporary aircraft so that a particular era, like 1940, 1941 etc (or BoB, N Africa etc) along with their maps can take us forward in a sensible way. It doesn't have to be a major product release, just the essential aircraft of a campaign or era and its map.

__________________

[FlatSpinMan]

Klem - isn't that what they seem to be doing? Stalingrad map, relevant planeset? I see what you're saying though about online compatibility.

It'll be interesting to see what types are included and which are available to purchase separately. I imagine that at release the main fighter variants of each side, plus say the Ju87 and the Il2 would be available. Just a guess.

We'll see.

[GAVCA/Jambock__28]

My manly concern is that in CloD I am able to use NewView and in RoF not... in fact, in RoF nothing what I tried (including mouse freely views and native PAN viwes) works properly in closed settings.

 

And no one mentions TrakIR for me: I deeply detest this system! Inluding the free solutions like Freetrack and FacenotrakcIR.

 

What is NewView? See here:

 

http://translate.google.com.br/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hruks.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fsid%3D56963858aa61f21981cbb40ed8baf068&act=url

 

I stopped flying RoF because of this problem, for which I received no response worthy every time I posted. 

 

Please, if is nor possible to do NewView works along with RoF/Bos, make de native freely PAN views works properly or the mouse views (in close settings, of course).

[AndyJWest]

Condor28, panning with the mouse works in RoF. You can emulate a mouse with JoyToKey if you want. If you have a problem, it is with the way you are trying to do it, not with RoF itself. 

[T_O_A_D]

Track Recordings, I'm hoping you figure out a way to make them like IL2 so they don't become trash every time you make an update on the game, like ROF.

 

Half the fun is reliving battles.

 

 

[L0stS0ul]

I'm hoping that the new product will allow information about the instruments to be read externally so simpit builders can have our own instruments be sync'd with the sim. I know il2 supports this today but ROF does not.  

[A-E-Hartmann]

Hello, my question is simple will for us to add additional aircraft games without having to pay j 'hoped that it will be free of il2 as in ca would be a shame to see this.

sorry for my english is not very good.

[APIKalimba]

Hello Jason !

 

Ok...Is this an accurate statement ? We know that your philosophy is to not promise anything at this point, but...Can we hope to benefit from it ?

 Found this on the Banana Forum....

Thanks !

 

 

Originally Posted by FS~Phat 

I know this is a bit naughty cross posting but this is important.

DX11 and 64bit is on the horizon.. will it make it to BoS? Probably, but maybe not on release. We may not get DX11 and 64bit on release of the new sequel but the 777 way is to make things fun, get it out and then continually tweak it. So if they are already working on DX11 and 64bit expect that will probably make its way into ROF (or maybe another project?) before the sequel for refinement and testing.

Bottom line. Dont dis 777 just because today they are DX9, they are already looking beyond that.

More here on the graphics engine 
http://www.cleared-to-engage.com/cat...777-studios-2/

Extract:
"It???

[150GCT_Veltro]

Will Rise of Flight share the same code-base as BOS? In other words: Will features that will be developed for BOS also be available in updates for RoF? 

 

Good question Vander, you got the point.

 

The most important question from the RoF community.

[vl6]

Good question Vander, you got the point.

 

The most important question from the RoF community.

This was already answered.

Please check this list before asking

 

http://forum.il2sturmovik.net/index.php?showtopic=146

[Catseye]

Hello Jason.

 

Would you consider opening a thread (an official one) where players can put their names for forward as potential Alpha/Beta testers in a closed server?

 

I Alpha and Beta tested World of Planes (Now War Thunder) and had no issues signing a Non Disclosure Agreement.

 

I would be interested in offering my services as an Alpha/Beta tester and I am sure many others would. Also if you need a video maker, I'd happily offer my Video making skills for your new project

 

Cheers, MP

+1 here

[csThor]

What about the SDK from CLiffs of Dover? Will this be released even in it's 'unfinished' form?

They don't have the engine and as BlackSix stated on the banana board the SDKs have not been worked on at all before the project was ended. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

[Merlin]

My manly concern is that in CloD I am able to use NewView and in RoF not... in fact, in RoF nothing what I tried (including mouse freely views and native PAN viwes) works properly in closed settings.

 

And no one mentions TrakIR for me: I deeply detest this system! Inluding the free solutions like Freetrack and FacenotrakcIR.

 

What is NewView? See here:

 

http://translate.google.com.br/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hruks.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fsid%3D56963858aa61f21981cbb40ed8baf068&act=url

 

I stopped flying RoF because of this problem, for which I received no response worthy every time I posted. 

 

Please, if is nor possible to do NewView works along with RoF/Bos, make de native freely PAN views works properly or the mouse views (in close settings, of course).

 

 

Condor28, panning with the mouse works in RoF. You can emulate a mouse with JoyToKey if you want. If you have a problem, it is with the way you are trying to do it, not with RoF itself. 

 

Condor28 is correct. With external views disabled mouselook does not work, ALT+F1 does nothing and it has been this way since July.

 

Full realism is the heart of RoF and mouselook is even more important when aids are disabled, especially with the default narrow field of view which requires a lot of sky scanning. Despite RoF having a long list of view controls it is very surprising it is failing to do basic mouselook. Even when external views are permitted and mouselook works, it prevents snap views, translation and centering from working. Meanwhile TrackIR continues to work flawlessly.

 

Jason used to work for TrackIR and seems to have forgotten that not everyone uses this technology. NewView is being ignored because he has made it clear he believes such alternatives violate TrackIR patents. At the very least simple mouselook should work. 

[ACG_Dickie]

1. All of our objects in ROF such as trucks planes etc. have a brain. That brain takes up resources. Simple static objects are a whole other issue and we did not have time to build simple static objects out of objects with a brain. Also, our engine synchronizes everything so everyone on the server sees the same thing. Even parts falling out of the sky, control surface movement, cloud position and movement, pilots heads turning with TrackIR etc. We did so for fidelity, but other sims get around this by not synchronizing everything in MP. Whatever comments made about this having to do with multi-threading and cores is not accurate. Intel has worked closely with us and they have even recognized ROF as a very well optimized multi-threaded application. BOS will not be an MMO so battles with hundreds of players on one server is not to be expected. There will be plenty of action in the air and on the ground I am sure. We love tanks as much as anyone, but this is primarily a flight-sim. As I said above about graphics, we won't get fixated on one detail at the expense of overall functionality, but the team will be aggressive without being foolish. What the final product looks like and how it performs is still an unknown, there is simply too much work to do. BOS will also have a Dedicated server option as does ROF.

 

Hello Jason,

 

Thank you for answering.  Just to be clear, Farber is not asking about MMO, we don't care about that, however we do need to have the ability to pack large groups of AI (usually bombers) into a scenario in order that the fighter boys can escort them and the enemy can attack.  We are talking 50 per side humans plus 50 AI (minimum, preferably double),  plus ground objects, of which there can be thousands, but of course if one were simulating a tank battle below you wouldn't quite need this many.  Nobody is expecting to have humans actually operate these objects, but we do need them to perform basic functions.  Without this, with aircraft that do 300mph, you end up with a scenario so small as to be worthless.  I respect that the present engine cannot manage this because that was perhaps never a requirement,  however a different era has a different perspective.  We are just messengers, this is a benchmark we are recommending based on the events we are already used to.

 

If you ever have the time or inclination to fly COD, come and have a go at such an event to see what we mean.  We will make room for you,  just pm.

 

Thanks

Edited December 14, 2012 by Osprey

[FlatSpinMan]

Thanks for the answers. It's all very interesting. I hope you guys find it enjoyable to do.

[SYN_Haashashin]

Are there plans to make a believable ground AI? I mean, moving ground objects should try to evade (like ships when enemy planes are in the area), light vehicles left static because driver went running into the woods, or just going offroad and breaking formation, and such? That would bring a new level of immersion to the sim.

 

I know it's a flight sim, but a good ground AI is vital for those of us that do more than simple air to air combat.

 

I think I can answer you this one. Jason, if Im doing wrong just let me know.

 

 You can do this allready with RoF Mission Editor, so my guess would be there that yeah, it will be there. Right now you can make trucks stop when enemy near, or when attacked. IA planes run away when damaged, ballons are widge down when enemy planes around...so I dont see why It wont be in BoS.

[Duckman]

Why no little men on the ground?

[Crumpp]

Something I would like to see is the head of the virtual pilot 'looks' where you happen to be looking at that time.. I know there is a mod in IL-2 that does this.. That along with the ability to load a picture of your face into the game to use as a skin would really add to the immersion of it all.. In essence, I like to fly up along the burning plane I just shot up and 'see' who it is I am killing and 'know' his last view of the world was my smiling face!

[GAVCA/Jambock__28]

Condor28 is correct. With external views disabled mouselook does not work, ALT+F1 does nothing and it has been this way since July.

 

Full realism is the heart of RoF and mouselook is even more important when aids are disabled, especially with the default narrow field of view which requires a lot of sky scanning. Despite RoF having a long list of view controls it is very surprising it is failing to do basic mouselook. Even when external views are permitted and mouselook works, it prevents snap views, translation and centering from working. Meanwhile TrackIR continues to work flawlessly.

 

Jason used to work for TrackIR and seems to have forgotten that not everyone uses this technology. NewView is being ignored because he has made it clear he believes such alternatives violate TrackIR patents. At the very least simple mouselook should work. 

 

Thanks Merlin, if more people complain about perhaps we would deserve a response from the devs! As Jason answered several questions, but not this, I just guess who is not interested in giving support to all users, only those with TrackIR ...

 

I think the RoF Superb, but I will not buy the BoS if this issue continue to be ignored!

[Rivet]

1. Ubisoft is not involved.

 

Firstly it's awesome news and a huge relief that Ubisoft won't have any dealings in the project :D .

 

 

No decision has been made about Steam. This is a complicated subject that involves technical issues and legal restrictions etc. We always want to reach as many potential users as possible and we have nothing against Valve, but we would need to do it in a way that makes sense for everyone involved. Right now our engine works independently of Steam, but I would not rule out a Steam version sometime in the future if it is workable. Short answer. I don't know yet... maybe, but right now no?

 

I realize the need to reach as many potential customers as possible and this is also a good thing for the flight sim community in general. I also realize that while no firm decision has been made about STEAM, it is being considered. This too is fair enough. You have to consider the best way to survive in these financially uncertain times.

 

However, to reach the maximum potential customers, including the countless numbers of us who wouldn't touch Steam with someone else's, will there also be an alternative method of purchase and download of both the sim and DLC content similar to the ROF system? I hope so.

 

The number of non Steam users might be more than you realize - Please don't alienate them by making this a Steam only product like CLOD - even though Valve will probably insist on it.

 

Although I have my reservations I do wish you well with this new venture.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Rivet

[Krupi]

Something I would like to see is the head of the virtual pilot 'looks' where you happen to be looking at that time.. I know there is a mod in IL-2 that does this.. That along with the ability to load a picture of your face into the game to use as a skin would really add to the immersion of it all.. In essence, I like to fly up along the burning plane I just shot up and 'see' who it is I am killing and 'know' his last view of the world was my smiling face!

 

Hey Crumpp, this is modelled in ROF so I expect it will be in BOS :D

 

 

_{Thanks Jason,}

_???

[Krupi]

Hi Jason How do you plan on balancing the game. I'm sure you and the Devs have had alot of discussions about this. Didnt the Germans have quite an advantage in aircraft back then? Thanks

 

BALANCE   nooooooo!!!

 

They have not balanced ROF and ww1 had much more extreme cases of advantages than ww2.

Edited December 15, 2012 by JG52Krupi

[NZTyphoon]

I would like a little more insight as to why the decision was made to throw away the COD engine tbh.  I'm assuming that 777 looked at the code or at least spoke with the devs who wrote it.  Just what was so wrong that couldn't be fixed?

I can see at least three possible reasons why the CLOD engine was ditched:

 

1) Possible intellectual property/rights issues - who owns the CLOD engine? I see the CLOD code has been cracked and is open to modification, but that does not neccesarily mean that will be made available to a business rival to use.

 

2) It may well be that the CLOD engine is already obsolescent, bearing in mind that in 2014 when BOS will, hopefully, be released, the basic programme will be c. 3-4 years old (probably more like 5-6 years old - ancient, in computer terms), and it may be easier to develop a new engine which will be flexible enough to be developed to meet future needs; eg:

 

Trends in 2014... "Regardless, a lot can change in two years, especially in tech."

 

3) The developers want to start with a completely clean slate, using programming and data over which they have complete control from the get-go.

 

My guess is a combination of all three.

Edited December 15, 2012 by NZTyphoon

[kendo]

I would also add two more reasons in addition to those above.

 

First is that COD may still have deep bugs and problems in its code that may make further development as slow and problematic as the last year and a half has been. They may have cobbled together a 'lashed up' 'make do' effort for the final patch, but still be faced with deep underlying problems that would surface with further development. A good example is Luthier's admission that there was NO solution to the collision problem with the trees, except to have far fewer of them on the next map! Also the problems with FMs above 20,000 feet that was going to require more deep work on the engine.

 

Second reason is that despite the publicity the two involved parties are not equals - it seems clear that COD/ Maddox Games has failed and the merger is more of a mopping up of the remnants of the COD development. In such a situation the bargaining power lies pretty heavily on one side. Given that, the ROF developers are not going to voluntarily choose to be the ones who must adapt to and learn the intricacies of the other engine.

 

Speculation of course, but...

Edited December 15, 2012 by kendo

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

-That is now a feature in the stock 4.11.1  sim as is a 64 plane QMB and 6DoF. This is one reason why I am so confident in BoS. If all that can be squeezed out of a 12 year old engine  I think that given what we see in RoF it is not fantasy to be optimistic about BoM. 

 

Quite. What one can get out of an engine is largely a matter of time and money. If 777 finds a way to secure funds for development through their business model, then they will be able to develop their engine. So far, this looks very promising.

 

Oh, and hi Bearcat! That's a face I haven't seen in a while!

Edited December 15, 2012 by Friendly flyer

[Ribbs]

Much appreciated.

Hope my double post didn't?