Ground Loop Simulation in BOS

[LukeFF]

45 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

He can make general comparisons but he's no expert on the individual types.

 

Well, then show us something - from that time period - that contradicts what he says about German airplane brakes. 

[Legioneod]

46 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Well, then show us something - from that time period - that contradicts what he says about German airplane brakes. 

 

I was talking about aircraft brakes, I should have clarified.  It makes sense that brakes fade, happens in all brake, but some types are more susceptible than others.

We should also consider the condition of the brakes themselves and the amount of use they have previously seen.

 

Either way I agree with most people in this thread, the brakes effectiveness while taxiing is too weak and makes them ineffective. Nothing in Browns statements imply that brakes were ineffective while taxiing, just that they faded quickly when landing.

 

The amount of heat/use of brakes during taxiing would not be enough to produce brake fade imo.

[ZachariasX]

6 hours ago, Legioneod said:

The amount of heat/use of brakes during taxiing would not be enough to produce brake fade imo.

Far from it. Unless taxiing, brakes are dead weight. You keep them as small as possible. Besides, brakes from 70 years ago really have much less in common with what you are used to today than you might think.

 

That said, it is clear that ground handling has room for improvement. It was mentioned above that the planes are like on ice. While I have no problem in ground handling, I get such a feeling as well. Ground friction is a delicate thing to model, especially on grass fields, where friction and stickiness varies a great deal, also depending on weather. It is probably due to the low friction that the tail wheel doesn‘t „pull the tail back and straight“, even when unlocked, as it probably would in real conditions. Fading of brakes (or that you can easily burn them) seems not modeled at all. So we do have a clear difference to the real thing. Somewhat of an average.

 

Now it comes down to how much „that ruins the game for you“ vs. development costs to get that right. Remember, it would not only require changing the bite of the brake plus introducing fading, it would also require altering the stickiness of the rubber on the ground, meaning you had to alter the map as well to have the right friction all across the airfields (at least). If you did it in „realistic manner“, I think people would have much more problems taking of, as they would get stuck in soft ground. I don‘t know how much money would be required to make that correct, but I doubt it would be an economically viable thing to do right now, considering the alternative if making more content for that money. 

 

I hope that the devs learn enough from TC how to model ground friction that eventually this can be ported to the aircraft. Until then, It‘s a combat sim, not a taxi sim. 

[[DBS]TH0R]

38 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Now it comes down to how much „that ruins the game for you“ vs. development costs to get that right. Remember, it would not only require changing the bite of the brake plus introducing fading, it would also require altering the stickiness of the rubber on the ground, meaning you had to alter the map as well to have the right friction all across the airfields (at least). If you did it in „realistic manner“, I think people would have much more problems taking of, as they would get stuck in soft ground. I don‘t know how much money would be required to make that correct, but I doubt it would be an economically viable thing to do right now, considering the alternative if making more content for that money. 

 

I hope that the devs learn enough from TC how to model ground friction that eventually this can be ported to the aircraft. Until then, It‘s a combat sim, not a taxi sim. 

 

A valid point.

 

It also comes down to how many bugs you can continue not looking at, whilst pushing out new content. I'd says there needs to be a balance for both. The game still has some glaring issues (that bother me, might not be important to the rest) and I would like them addressed in the near future.

 

As for brakes - this is something that I notice every time I join a MP server. Lets say this is a bug that happens frequently. If that has anything to do with selection on what gets fixed or not.

[Art-J]

Last week I was reading about one of 486. Sqn RNZAF pilots, Rick Tanner, ending his flying career after a landing mishap, when his Tempest flipped over because of parking brake being left  engaged accidentally before touch down. I guess we'll have to wait for the Tempest and see If the same thing can happen in BoX ;). Not holding my breath, though, because the only three taildragger planes I fly in this sim (P-40, P-47, Spit IX) can touchdown with full brakes no problem. True, Thunderbolt has a bit of nose down tendency when doing so (easily controllable with elevator), but the remainig two don't even try to pretend they could flip.

 

What we can quantify and compare, however, are engine parameters and plane behaviour when doing ground checks in the Spit IX. Real P.N. says the prop and mag check were to be done at 0 PSI boost. Only takeoff power checks required the plane to be tied down. The document doesn't specify what RPM you got at 0 boost, but I'd presume with 4-bladed Rotol prop it wouldn't be much different to Mustangs, i.e. about 2300 RPM.

 

In BoX, trying to keep the plane stationary with full brakes at 0 PSI doesn't work - it will happpily start rolling. But OK, the plane pulls much higher RPM, thanks to questionable modelling of prop governors in this sim, maybe that's the reason. Let's try again by adjusting RPM then, 2300, corresponding to about -3 PSI of boost it seems. Nah, same result, the plane will start moving. 

 

When the Mustang is out, we'll see if the same experiment can be done in that one (30" MAP, 2300 RPM).

 

I don't expect brake fade to be modelled. It's not present in DCS either, does it exist in AccuSim's offerings for P3D? No idea. But in BoX, the brakes seem to be lacking form the get go, even before they could start fading. Managable? Sure, just like any gamey/simplified aspects of this or any other sim. Accurate? I'd say not quite.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Art-J

[ZachariasX]

41 minutes ago, Art-J said:

does it exist in AccuSim's offerings for P3D?

Yes.

[BraveSirRobin]

Lots of people have to use the keyboard for brakes.  That’s probably why they are weaker.

[[DBS]TH0R]

4 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Lots of people have to use the keyboard for brakes.  That’s probably why they are weaker.

 

And there is the basis for my comment earlier, that having pedals where you can dial in the amount of toe brakes you want feels ... not needed/useless in this sim.

 

Brake on a lever, like on VVS or RAF planes modeled for keyboards specifically makes perhaps more sense since there are not so many joysticks around with a lever behind a pinky switch. OTOH, many a user has rudder pedals with toe brakes.

Edited April 6, 2019 by [DBS]TH0R

[BraveSirRobin]

I wouldn't say there's no reason to have toe brakes. But the developers have to program for people who have nothing but a keyboard for brakes. That might be why the brakes are not strong enough.

[Sokol1]

7 hours ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

Brake on a lever, like on VVS or RAF planes modeled for keyboards specifically makes perhaps more sense since there are not so many joysticks around with a lever behind a pinky switch. OTOH, many a user has rudder pedals with toe brakes.

 

In IL-2:GB brake for keyboard operation is not modeled only for VVS or RAF planes, but for all planes. 

 

You can use toe brakes in rudder pedal when taxing a e.g. Bf 109, but the guy with "3in1" stick with twist rudder and braking on button or keyboard will achieve the same result, since a brake on key or button is 0 or 100% if brake are modeled more "realistic" (effective) will make this people nose over constantly.

 

Perhaps a market concession for catch new players between people with basic "3in1" joysticks instead a fancy HOTAS + rudder pedal.

 

"3in1" stick: entry-level joystick with throttle dial and twist rudder.

 

 

 

[Guest deleted@50488]

Hmmm,

 

I'm beginning to "adhere" to the idea of being like that to make it playable for users with not so fancy hardware, and I can sympathize / understand the rational behind it.

 

Maybe in the future, though, when the Devs find a bit of spare time, they might consider a configuration for different types of braking axis ( ? )

Edited April 7, 2019 by jcomm