German AI Tanks Use of Guns on Russian IL-2 Crews

[lennycutler]

This may or may not be realistic...but during an IL-2 ground attack mission #6...from Lapino....my pilot and rear gunner had to bail out....using my F-5 key I noticed German tanks aiming their turret guns at my parachutes.  They fired and almost hit. 

 

Now, I would think that if this would happen in real life...the tanks would use machine guns....but not their main guns.

 

I would say that this puts a new dimension in the game as far as surviving a bail out....

 

Keep it....if it is historically accurate.

 

If not, perhaps the tanks could better conserve their ammo for other things.

[Nil]

I tried firing at a chute .. and there where only puffs of smoke, no destroyed parachute. I used both the guns and the cannon, and the one in the chute looked alive.
Guess I'll try to shoot at the person in the chute next time.

Sounds a little silly to waste tankshells on a chute!

[Finkeren]

Just guessing, but it might be, that parachuting pilots in BoS are classified as ground objects. Therefore the tank AI which is set to attack Soviet ground objects will try firing at the chute.

[ParaB]

Keep it....if it is historically accurate.

 

If not, perhaps the tanks could better conserve their ammo for other things.

 

It's not. German tanks at least very, very very rarely used their main guns against enemy aircraft. And no tank commander would allow main gun ammo to be wasted on a parachute.

[Venturi]

No way main guns were used against aircraft. I doubt the turret and hull MGs could elevate so far, either. Tanks, in general, will not have the ability to shoot at aircraft unless they have AA MGs on the turret, and even then in a battle zone, no wise tank commander will pop the hatch to shoot bbs at fast flying aircraft when an infantryman could then run up, shoot the commander, and drop a grenade down the open hatch... thus the reason for turret cupolas...

[Georgio]

German tank rolls up to the edge of a Russian airbase.Tank commander orders the gunner to open fire; 'Nein commander we cannot waste ze shells against Russki aircraft remember...'

[Bladderburst]

Main guns were and are used against aircraft. If you are dumb enough to provide the tank with a nice target, the gunner has no reason not to try to shoot you down.

Using main gun ammo against a chute is really stupid however.

[Venturi]

German tank rolls up to the edge of a Russian airbase.Tank commander orders the gunner to open fire; 'Nein commander we cannot waste ze shells against Russki aircraft remember...'

 

Grounded aircraft, stationary or slow moving target, different situation entirely.

 

Main guns were and are used against aircraft. If you are dumb enough to provide the tank with a nice target, the gunner has no reason not to try to shoot you down.

 

Using main gun ammo against a chute is really stupid however.

 

Really, so, how do you think the shells were fused, then? And what about that turret traverse rate?

[Rama]

Really, so, how do you think the shells were fused, then? And what about that turret traverse rate?

There are some anecdotes of T-34 positionned on slopes of a ditch firing at diving stukas, and also some other on the german side with tanks firing main gun on low flying planes overflying their columns, for example in Otto Carius book "Tigers in the Mud".

Some of them report some direct hits (tank shells don't use altitude fuses)..... These anecdotes are probably to be taken with a pinch of salt.... and even if true, it was exceptionnal, not the norm.

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

If I was a tank gunner I'd be saying to my commander "Hey I bet I could hit that aircraft".

[Venturi]

I would like some salt with that, indeed!

 

 

There are some anecdotes of T-34 positionned on slopes of a ditch firing at diving stukas, and also some other on the german side with tanks firing main gun on low flying planes overflying their columns, for example in Otto Carius book "Tigers in the Mud".

Some of them report some direct hits (tank shells don't use altitude fuses)..... These anecdotes are probably to be taken with a pinch of salt.... and even if true, it was exceptionnal, not the norm.

 

 

[Bladderburst]

Grounded aircraft, stationary or slow moving target, different situation entirely.

 

 

Really, so, how do you think the shells were fused, then? And what about that turret traverse rate?

There are no proximity fuses so you need a direct hit.

 

Traverse rate is faster than you may think. 10 second for a full traverse of the T34's turret.

 

Still it seems it happened.

 

Modern armor are somewhat capable of dealing with helicopters. Fuse can be switched on some gun types.

[Sokol1]

Some anedoctes:

 

 

In his book, Dmitriy Loza recounts how one of the Shermans under his command shot down a German bomber with its main gun.

 

"From a cornfield, a camouflaged T-34 fired one shot, which cut off a part of the wing of the aircraft of Oblt. Dieter Orth, the German liason officer. The plane hit the ground and exploded instantly."

 

"The day of 6 October was an "usual" day for the Romanian unit. The missions went on one after another. However, for adj. av. Gheorghe Zamfir, it proved to be a quite an experience. During an attack on Soviet armor near the village of Shirokoe his aircraft was hit by 20 mm gun fire, just as he had launched his bombs. A shell had stopped in the armor in his back. He managed to bring it back to the airfield. After 10 minutes he took off in another mission and in another airplane. This time they attacked artillery positions at Alexandrovka. A well-camouflaged tank fired a lucky shot, which hit him in the fuselage and cut off a part of his controls. He barely managed to return to base, where the aircraft broke in two as he was taxiing on the runaway. After 30 minutes he was back in the air again. The Hs-129B2 formation attacked a Soviet troop concentration at Guterka. As he fired his guns, an incediary shell hit his ammo, which started to explode. With the aircraft in flames he headed towards the front line. He managed to put it down and got out just in time. The Hs-129 exploded. Adj. av. Gheorghe Claru landed next to the burning wreck, took his wounded comrade on board and returned him safely to the airfield.

http://www.worldwar2.ro/arr/?article=579

 

 

If I remember correctly in Anna Timofeeva-Egorova book are related similar incident...

 

Anyway, tank shoot at planes/pilots is "tradition" in old il-2.

 

Sokol1

[sop]

50 cal was able to kill tiger, so why not t34 killing for its tank brother.

[Sokol1]

From Egorova book (OVER FIELDS OF FIRE: Flying the Sturmovik in Action on the Eastern Front 1942-45 ):

 

 

Sounds like a fisherman history...  

 

Sokol1

[AX2]

Go 4:10       

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMjP-cqzeyU

Edited February 23, 2014 by Mustang

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Go 4:10       

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMjP-cqzeyU

 

Bet he drinks Carling Black Label

[III/JG11_Tiger]

Some anedoctes:

 

 

If I remember correctly in Anna Timofeeva-Egorova book are related similar incident...

 

Anyway, tank shoot at planes/pilots is "tradition" in old il-2.

 

Sokol1

Yes just finished that book and she mentions that the Sturmoviks would get shot at by the tanks main gun, I guess if the sturmos are low and slow and headed straight at you it wouldnt be to difficult to hit them

[MiloMorai]

There are no proximity fuses so you need a direct hit.

 

Traverse rate is faster than you may think. 10 second for a full traverse of the T34's turret.

 

 

Afaik an electric traverse was not installed til sometime in 1944. I find it hard to believe that a turret can hand cranked that fast.

[Bladderburst]

Afaik an electric traverse was not installed til sometime in 1944. I find it hard to believe that a turret can hand cranked that fast.

 

Panzer IV is much slower anyhow  and yes, 10 seconds is for the electric traverse, so it's probably slower, around 30 seconds.

 

However these are details, the point is that you can get shot by a tank in CERTAIN situations. They're not 100% defenseless against air attacks.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Boussourir

[Venturi]

No offense, but I don't buy it.

[Venturi]

Most likely, tanks under air attack were simply trying to get to cover, or, even, the crews would ditch their vehicles. If the tank was in the middle of a battle, the crews are looking for ground targets/threats, terrain, AT guns, other hull-down tanks, other tanks in the formation, etc. Not trying to scan the sky looking for ways to line up on a fast and randomly moving plane, which their main gun may not even be able to elevate enough to hit, and which had a slow traverse in any case, not to mention each tank usually had a very limited number of HE shells, which were valuable and not usually fully resupplied at any time... It is simply unrealistic to think of tanks even occasionally trying to shoot at planes, regardless of anecdotal war stories to the contrary.... maybe american tank crews would, but then, the americans usually had the luxury of numbers and supply, and irreverent troops to boot.

[Blackcloud]

Main guns were and are used against aircraft. If you are dumb enough to provide the tank with a nice target, the gunner has no reason not to try to shoot you down.

 

Using main gun ammo against a chute is really stupid however.

I would be interested to read any evidence of a tank firing a main gun against a flying target.  Even on the ground when an aircraft can be destroyed or critically damaged using a smaller calibre I would think that it would be unusual to waste the main gun ammunition.  With the supply situation for both armies (remember even in the early days due to the speed of blitzkrieg the supply lines had trouble keeping up with the armoured spearhead), the traverse rates and the elevation possible for the main gun, I would think it was highly unlikely.

 

That said the truth is that I don't know and would love to read any examples if any one can provide some about this occurring.

 

As for main gunning a parachute........ I would think that ludicrous...... But again any evidence?

[bivalov]

i long time waiting, something like this... although, in russian forum was screenshot, where german gunner (i mean, kugelblende-50) attacked lagg-3...

 

about tanks, which attack planes, writes Karius... plus, about tanks said Boreyko... looks like it's could be in some cases, but in game much more cases of any types, of course and maybe it's will be configured...

 

because attacks planes with kugelblende-50, i think, it's luck and very rare case...

[Bladderburst]

No offense, but I don't buy it.

 

Sorry if you don't but you were given examples of instances where it happened and you still feel that it's not right.

 

I have never said that a tank would scan the sky for aircraft, try to track them with its turret, that aircraft were a target of value for a tank or even that it was commonplace.

 

[Venturi]

Where's the salt??

[Rama]

No need to dispute about this.

There are some anecdotes and no proofs, no way to cross-check with other anecdotes.

So, right or wrong, it's just a matter of belief

[6./ZG26_Emil]

Maybe it happened once but the odds of this happening on any kind of regular scale are basically zero.

 

Canister rounds would be the only way I could believe this happened more than a 1 in a billion fluke.

Edited February 23, 2014 by JG5_Emil

[ParaB]

No need to dispute about this.

There are some anecdotes and no proofs, no way to cross-check with other anecdotes.

So, right or wrong, it's just a matter of belief

As long as tanks won't engage aircraft in BoS with their main gun I'm happy.