Switching on Autopilot issue

[ladlon]

Hello...  I'm trying to do a bombing mission with the He111, and I'm letting the AI pilot the plane for the journey there, as I set up the bombsite.

 

Everything is lovely, except that when I want to switch the Autopilot on (not AI Toggle), I can't, as I need to be in control of the pilot.

 

Fair enough, I toggle off the AI control of the pilot, and the plane dips and banks... and now we are no longer lined up.  Granted, if I were really good, I would then manually pilot the plane back into the proper altitude, speed, heading,  and level things off, and then switch on the Autopilot, so I could then go back to the bombadier station and continue on with the prep...  But, that's a bit too challenging for me at this point.  I was hoping to just 'play the bombadier'... which is all possible, except for the switching on of the autopilot, so I can actually test my bombsite settings before we get too close.

 

Now, that then makes me wonder... Will the AI pilot actually switch on the autopilot himself, after we reach a certain distance from the target?  If so, theoretically, I could just remain the bombadier... I just wanted to test things a bit earlier, to see if the track is good.  And, without having the autopilot on, the plane sways and the track repeatedly 'grabs and releases' the track, making it impossible to really tell if the settings are good.

 

I'm running the EnlightenedFlorist mission generator... and unfortunately, the target elevation is not provided, so I'll have to kind of wing it visually... which is all the more reason why I need that extra time to check the settings (which, in turn, needs the autopilot to be on, so the plane is actually steady).

 

Any solution to this... or is this another CloD idiocyncracy?  :(

[Sokol1]

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Will the AI pilot actually switch on the autopilot himself,...

 

No, you as pilot is who determine this.

 

Instead leave computer "play" for you, use Autopilot mode Course for climb for the first way point before target, meanwhile you can fiddle with bombsight.

 

Pre-set your bombsight before take-off, them try fly in adjusted parameter, e.g, speed 300, altitude 7000 meters.

So you don't have to try adjust bombsight for an unstable fly with target became close.

 

Autopilotot modes:

Course: for fly in direction of  the target area  and can climb.

Mode 22: for level bombing, will try fly in last course set, leveled - if you leave the plane in this condition before engage Mode 22 , if not, became a "Dolphin".

 

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 ...and unfortunately, the target elevation is not provided

 

Before start fly, open ATAG Bombsight Utility and check your base and target altitudes, and take note - like a RL pilot do.

 

VO101_Tom charts - included in Printable Airfields folder* has airfield altitude noted, in meters and foot's.

*Copy or move this folder for local more accessible, e.g. Documents\1c soft club..

 

Use this Utility too for calculate the TAS for the intended IAS you plan drop bombs.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sokol1

[ladlon]

But, see, that's the problem....  If I want to play as the bombadier, I can do everything EXCEPT switch on the autopilot, which is needed for you to verify/adjust your bombsite track.  I have to switch to the pilot, and take control... but as soon as I do, the plane rolls/dives, as it is going from the AI's settings (throttle, yoke), to your (physical) controller's settings... throttle suddenly changes, pitch/roll suddenly changes... and then all the nice alignment that the AI pilot did are lost.... and you have only a very short time to get it back to where it should be (which is made worse by the fact that you'll probably be diving/rolling severely, losing altitude, going way off heading.

 

As well, the target was an industrial area, and as far as I know, you only get info for target airfields.  But, you could probably eyeball the track, by adjusting the altitude setting of the bombsite until it give a good track.... again, IF you could turn on the autopilot without taking control of the pilot.  So, a catch-22...  If you stay as the bombadier, you can't switch the autopilot (and the AI pilot won't do it, as he should).  If you play as the pilot, then you have to set up the plane's altitude and heading, level everything off, etc on your own... certainly not impossible, by any means... but it's hard to get the plane lined up to the target's heading when that far away from it still.

 

The AI pilot should hit the autopilot at the appropriate time (when the 5 minute warning is made?), or the player (as the bombadier) should be able to trigger the autopilot.

 

And, yep, I know about the charts and utilities.  I have them bookmarked and everything! 

Edited March 10, 2019 by ladlon

[Sokol1]

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I have to switch to the pilot, and take control... but as soon as I do, the plane rolls/dives, as it is going from the AI's settings (throttle, yoke), to your (physical) controller's settings... throttle suddenly changes, pitch/roll suddenly changes... and then all the nice alignment that the AI pilot did are lost....

 

 

Why I suggest you fly the plane and not "AI autopilot", when you set a course (in Course Setter), trim plane for climbing and engage Autopilot mode Course, you can jump in bombardier position and do what you want.

 

When in the last waypoint before target, disengage and trim plane for level flight in the speed, altitude you plane bombing and engage Autopilot mode 22 for keep plane in this heading/altitude/speed, an go check bombsight again.

 

Remember, with autopilot modes engaged you can still able correct plane heading - from bombardier position, like a RL bombardier can do - in some planes, in more "primitive" planes bombardier  need instruct pilot to correct (alias modeled in IL-2:46 4.13 or similar patch.

 

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...As well, the target was an industrial area, and as far as I know, you only get info for target airfields. 

 

If you look at RL USAAF 1940's bombing manual you see that not always target altitude is know, and in this case is recommend use an nearest know, e.g. an airfield.

 

Thing is: you need play the game in the way he was designed (the state of cloD require additional compromises), that maybe is not the way you want.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sokol1

[ladlon]

Yep, previously, I was flying the plane myself, setting it on Autopilot (not AI control) and then doing the bombadier stuff, and even making small course corrections (from the bombadier station) to line up the target.

 

The difference came when I got tired of manually piloting all the way over (and also spending all that time, flying to the enemy territory), while I was just wanting to try and perfect my bombing skill....   So, I'd use the time compressions while flying over the water, and I did that with the AI pilot on.. so I could enjoy other things (like the bombadier station, and even the gunners.  IL-2 has often been notorious for their long initial legs to the enemy area!

 

But, ya, I'll just have to pilot it myself, and hopefully still be able to use some time compression.  Either that, or AI pilot it for the first half, and then take over as pilot, and fix up any misalignments cause by the transition from AI to manual control.  I suppose one other thing I can do, before switching from AI to manual control of the pilot position, is to note the position of the (in plane) throttle, and try and match my real ones to it as best I can... so (hopefully) when I make the AI to manual switchover, the difference is not so extreme, and my plane won't suddenly get thrown into a dive or roll.

 

A shame that the AI pilot doesn't switch on the autopilot when they are nearing the target area (...or, failing that, the sim just allows you to use the autopilot on/off control to make up for the AI not being able to do it)... so you could play entirely as the bombadier, from start to finish.  That one thing is the only thing preventing that.  The AI takes care of all the other stuff.

[Sokol1]

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 I'll just have to pilot it myself, and hopefully still be able to use some time compression. 

 

You can use time compression after engage Autopilot Course - bu assure that have Couse Setter correct or win end far from desired point.

 

Or if you are squad leader and need use AI Autopilot "workaround" for takeoff, leave engaged until before target, to have time for fly in desired parameters for engage Autopilot Mode 22.

[56RAF_Stickz]

Whilst its a long time since I bombed on clod (squad swapped to il2 BoX) and I only really used the blennie for it, dont think I ever switched to the AI pilot. Used to trim plane and set throttle to maintain height and general heading so that nought drastic happened and jumped into bombadier position. Did not guarantee level, straight flight for extended time, but certainly enough to get in bomber sight to correct it. Could then check it was still going sensibly. I believe there were people claimed to be able to trim well enough to compress time as well as it simplifies the flight model anyway (unless I am confusing sims here).

And to save spending 30minutes to fly to target I wrote a simple mission where I was spawning in about 20miles out. Gave enough time to set bombsight, trim it all, get to IP and set to target. You might even find there are missions written that would either do this for you, or give a template to tweak. Mine are all pre-blitz so do not show as available now so not sure if working (or if I could find them).

At worst you do not have to fly to enemy territory - you could just bomb a bridge or airfield something on coast close to take off point if its the bombing setup you wish to practise.

[56RAF_Roblex]

 Like Stickz,  it is a while since I bombed in CLoD but I am pretty sure that I used autopilot with both Blennies & JU88s then sat in the bombardier position until after  I had dropped.  If I remember right,  in CLoD you can adjust the autopilot course using your keyboard shortcuts so once you get it generally flying towards your target you can sit in in the bombardier position for the rest of the journey and steer the bomber wherever you want while it keeps a consistent speed and altitude.  It is possible though that you can only do that in German bombers as they have the 'Course' autopilot as well as the fully automated autopilot that the Blenheim has.

[ladlon]

Yes, if the He111, the pilot switches on the Autopilot, and then the bombadier can have control of the plane as far as nudging the course left/right to line up the target (...technically, I believe in real life the bombadier didn't actually have CONTROL, but instead indicated to the pilot where he should aim for, and that deviation was shown on the PDI gauge....  unless I'm mistaken).  I think on the B-17, the bombadier DID have direct (limited) control.  But, in the sim, you can directly nudge the course (as the bombadier) to line up the target.

 

Yep, all that is fine, and I used that successfully before.  The only issue, again, is that if you are having the AI play the pilot, the sim does not allow you to either directly turn the autopilot on, or tell the AI pilot to do so (...or, that the AI pilot would do it on his own, once you are near the target area).  That forces the player (playing as the bombadier) to momentarily switch off AI piloting to turn on the autopilot... which (because of the inevitable discrepency between your PHYSICAL flight controllers vs the positioning that the AI pilot has adjusted to the SIM controls) often causes a sudden lurch in pitch, roll, throttle, etc.... which inevitably  throws you right off any nice, level heading towards the target that was established by the AI pilot.  Just kind of a dumb design choice to either not allow the PLAYER (regardless of crew position) to turn on/off the autopilot (or have some means to ASK the AI pilot to do so, or have the AI pilot do it at the appropriate time).

 

But, this is only an issue if you are using the AI to fly the first leg of the trip, and putting the sim in fast forward (to speed up the 'just flying across the channel' part, and get to the important stuff... which is often necessary if you are trying the bombing run for the 5th time in a row!).

 

If you fly it yourself, set course and level the plane yourself, and then switch on the autopilot when you are getting close to the target, it's all fine.  It's just when you use AI CONTROL, you often get that very disruptive transition, causing all the nice lining up to get screwed up.  Not a biggie, but sadly something that could have been easily fixed or avoided.

 

I'll just use the AI until I get to the enemy coast, then have to take control and line everything up and steady it myself (rather than via the AI pilot)... just not something I'm good at, nor particularly enjoy...  Sometimes I enjoy playing the pilot, but sometimes, you just want to be the bombadier (...just as sometimes you just want to be the gunner, which you CAN do, without issue).

Edited March 12, 2019 by ladlon

[Sokol1]

1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

  It is possible though that you can only do that in German bombers as they have the 'Course' autopilot as well as the fully automated autopilot that the Blenheim has.

 

Course Autopilot is available IRL only in He 111, Ju 88 of BoB bombers. 

 

IRL Blenheim and Fiat G.50 don't have "autopilot", but for "game purposed" this was added by TF in Blenheim and Fiat Br.20 of CloD,

with same procedures of Luftwaffe bombers, just without the correspondent instruments in cockpit. 

 

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(...technically, I believe in real life the bombadier didn't actually have CONTROL, but instead indicated to the pilot where he should aim for, and that deviation was shown on the PDI gauge....  unless I'm mistaken).

 

In more "modern" bombers of WWII (He 111, Ju 88, B17, B-24...) pilot transfer control for bombardier, like in this sequence of Unbroken:

 

 

 

C-1 Autopilot (USAAF) autopilot controls available for bombardier:

https://nordenbombsightsbymoore.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/C-1-Autopilot.jpg

 

In older models bombardier instruct pilot, in some Russian bombers with colored lights - one for left, one for right and one for keep center.

 

 

BTW - IL-2:46 TD 4.13 patch still the best level bombing operation/procedures modeled in flight games until now.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Sokol1

[ladlon]

I'll have to check out that full film.  I rather enjoyed that clip.  I think the most recent WW2 film I've seen was Memphis Belle(!).  I got to see Dunkirk, as well.

 

Odd... that bombadier didn't seem to do any 'tracking'... just kind of used the site as a guide to when to release.  Was that a Hollywood simplification, or were the systems like that?  Those are Mitchells, are they not?

 

On my X-Plane Mitchel, it has a PDI gauge, which (if I'm not mistaken) was a similar system to that shown in the 2nd clip (Russian bomber system)... where the pilot still kept control, but was told where to nudge the plane's heading via a dial (very much like a localizer).  Not really sure which is the proper version.

 

Well, that really made me want to play the sim again...  (I still have to utilize the altitude/airspeed charts, though... which I'm not thrilled about, but have to accept)

[Sokol1]

Just as curiosity, in (CloD) Ju 88 you should be able - as bombardier, in click in this left-right switch (in red circle) for correct Autopilot left/right.

 

 

But since "CloD is CloD" (not finished)  you can't, but can - as bombardier, click in the switch of pilot yoke for the same function, of course is more practical use shortcuts. 

 

@ladlon

 

I think that your wishes for a more "casual bomber" will be better fulfilled in IL-2:GB, here just you need use an external App in smartphone, or use a printed disk for determines "Wind Triangle"* correction, but the rest you need do is available in bombsight view, wheres you jump after set plane in "AI autopilot for level flight" - being able to correct curse left/right as bombardier. 

 

* Can determines this correction mentally looking in adjust interface disk, but require some memory/metal effort.

 

And you can do this: ?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOiYcYxa-bo

 

For some reason - think because is an overlay, bombsight view is not recorded in tracks (at least in this old version of BoS).

 

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Odd... that bombadier didn't seem to do any 'tracking'... just kind of used the site as a guide to when to release.  Was that a Hollywood simplification, or were the systems like that?  Those are Mitchells, are they not?

 

That's just Hollywood,  bombardier are just ... "acting".

Bombers is B-24 Liberator.

 

In the linked IL-2:46 TD video is showed this PDI adjust you mention for Norden - added in patch 4.13.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Sokol1