Air battle - Kursk

[ACG_KaiLae]

So I was thinking. We are getting a Kursk map, though (so far) we aren't getting a Kursk plane set. What would that plane set look like? I did some quick checking and it basically looked like the Kuban plane set, for the most part. The planes that I know of that are missing seem to be the Yak-9, and the Me-410 (apparently used by Romania in the battle, at least). However, I'm not that up on exact OOB so I was wondering if my quick hit was accurate?

[RedKestrel]

30 minutes ago, ACG_Kai_Lae said:

So I was thinking. We are getting a Kursk map, though (so far) we aren't getting a Kursk plane set. What would that plane set look like? I did some quick checking and it basically looked like the Kuban plane set, for the most part. The planes that I know of that are missing seem to be the Yak-9, and the Me-410 (apparently used by Romania in the battle, at least). However, I'm not that up on exact OOB so I was wondering if my quick hit was accurate?

I would not be shocked if we got a yak-9 as a collector plane at some point in the future, IIRC Jason and the devs have talked about the possibility of filling in some gaps in the planeset in the east at some point.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Jason did mention the Yak-9 in the interview I did with them as well. Honestly, Yak-9 or 9T aside, we have almost the entire aircraft set for the Battle of Kursk. It's an air battle dominated by some very familiar Yak-1B, Yak-9, LaGG-3, La-5, La-5F, La-5FN types for the Russian side and Bf109G-2/4/6, FW190A-5/F on the German side. The IL-2, Ju87, Hs129 fill in the attack plane line-up and the Pe-2, He111, and Ju88 are your typical bombers of the scenario.

 

Sure there are some exotic types that took part (I recall there was a night IL-4/Pe-8 raid on a rail yard) but its a pretty straight forward line-up. Add a Yak-9/9T to the mix and we've got all of your typical types. I'm probably missing something but yeah that's about it.

 

I'd be curious about the Me410 story as I've never heard of that.

 

RE: The Yak-9T, this would be a fairly straight forward addition to the series using the Yak-7B as the source and building the modifications from that. Bubble canopy, cockpit moved aft (if Yak-9T), very similar cockpit arrangement, tweaks to wings, remove one 12.7mm machine gun, add a new 37mm cannon (again, 9T), etc.

Edited March 4, 2019 by ShamrockOneFive

[RedKestrel]

14 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Jason did mention the Yak-9 in the interview I did with them as well. Honestly, Yak-9 or 9T aside, we have almost the entire aircraft set for the Battle of Kursk. It's an air battle dominated by some very familiar Yak-1B, Yak-9, LaGG-3, La-5, La-5F, La-5FN types for the Russian side and Bf109G-2/4/6, FW190A-5/F on the German side. The IL-2, Ju87, Hs129 fill in the attack plane line-up and the Pe-2, He111, and Ju88 are your typical bombers of the scenario.

 

Sure there are some exotic types that took part (I recall there was a night IL-4/Pe-8 raid on a rail yard) but its a pretty straight forward line-up. Add a Yak-9/9T to the mix and we've got all of your typical types. I'm probably missing something but yeah that's about it.

 

I'd be curious about the Me410 story as I've never heard of that.

 

RE: The Yak-9T, this would be a fairly straight forward addition to the series using the Yak-7B as the source and building the modifications from that. Bubble canopy, cockpit moved aft (if Yak-9T), very similar cockpit arrangement, tweaks to wings, remove one 12.7mm machine gun, add a new 37mm cannon (again, 9T), etc.

I loved the Yak-9T in il2 1946 and it would be great to see Great Battle's take on it. But a vanilla Yak-9 might be more useful in the end.

[WWSandMan]

Yak-9 series, or parts of it, would be a a no-brainer addition to the sim-mix. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I loved the Yak-9T in il2 1946 and it would be great to see Great Battle's take on it. But a vanilla Yak-9 might be more useful in the end.

 

I'm curious why you might think it more useful?

 

An interesting thing that most don't know about is that the Yak-9T was actually the definitive version. There were 2748 Yak-9Ts built versus 459 Yak-9 (according to http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/yak9.shtml, I've seen similar numbers elsewhere) and was not used as an anti-tank version as some had thought. Instead the cannon was used for all purposes including fighter versus fighter combat, light anti-shipping, and light anti-vehicle duty. It was a better anti-tank weapon than the P-39's M4 cannon but was still not best suited in the role.

[RedKestrel]

5 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I'm curious why you might think it more useful?

 

An interesting thing that most don't know about is that the Yak-9T was actually the definitive version. There were 2748 Yak-9Ts built versus 459 Yak-9 (according to http://www.airpages.ru/eng/ru/yak9.shtml, I've seen similar numbers elsewhere) and was not used as an anti-tank version as some had thought. Instead the cannon was used for all purposes including fighter versus fighter combat, light anti-shipping, and light anti-vehicle duty. It was a better anti-tank weapon than the P-39's M4 cannon but was still not best suited in the role.

Most find the 37mm hard to hit with. In il2 1946 it was basically a one hit kill weapon but from what we see of how 37mm are modeled in Great Battles its much less like that. So a weapon that's difficult to hit with and doesn't do overwhelming damage might not be a great sell. 

Combine that with the performance hit from toting the cannon and I can see a lot of people preferring the vanilla Yak-9 vs. the 9T.

[ACG_KaiLae]

2 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Jason did mention the Yak-9 in the interview I did with them as well. Honestly, Yak-9 or 9T aside, we have almost the entire aircraft set for the Battle of Kursk. It's an air battle dominated by some very familiar Yak-1B, Yak-9, LaGG-3, La-5, La-5F, La-5FN types for the Russian side and Bf109G-2/4/6, FW190A-5/F on the German side. The IL-2, Ju87, Hs129 fill in the attack plane line-up and the Pe-2, He111, and Ju88 are your typical bombers of the scenario.

 

Sure there are some exotic types that took part (I recall there was a night IL-4/Pe-8 raid on a rail yard) but its a pretty straight forward line-up. Add a Yak-9/9T to the mix and we've got all of your typical types. I'm probably missing something but yeah that's about it.

 

I'd be curious about the Me410 story as I've never heard of that.

 

RE: The Yak-9T, this would be a fairly straight forward addition to the series using the Yak-7B as the source and building the modifications from that. Bubble canopy, cockpit moved aft (if Yak-9T), very similar cockpit arrangement, tweaks to wings, remove one 12.7mm machine gun, add a new 37mm cannon (again, 9T), etc.

 

After looking into it more, it seems that it would have been hungarian aircraft, and they would have been Me-210's, though heavily modified. One hungarian model packed a 40mm bofors cannon as it's armament. 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

The vanilla Yak-9 is basically the same as our Yak-1B, very similar if not identical performance and also very similar appearance. The "worthy" Yak-9s would be the later versions such as the T, M and U (there is also the D and DD, but those were "vanilla" Yak-9s with extra fuel tanks for extended range, these two variants would be more appropiate as part of a standard expansion planeset rather than a dedicated collector plane).

To answer Kai's question, yeah the core of the planeset is already present in the sim, however there could be a couple more interesting planes like the Ju 87 D-5, P-39N, I suppose later P-40s were also present? (something like a K or M)

 

[BlackSix]

1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

The vanilla Yak-9 is basically the same as our Yak-1B, very similar if not identical performance and also very similar appearance. The "worthy" Yak-9s would be the later versions such as the T, M and U (there is also the D and DD, but those were "vanilla" Yak-9s with extra fuel tanks for extended range, these two variants would be more appropiate as part of a standard expansion planeset rather than a dedicated collector plane).

The Yak-9 isn't the same as Yak-1B as appearance can deceive, it's very close in design to the late modification of Yak-7b you have in BOK. There were two branches of the evolution of Yakovlev fighters. The first branch is the Yak-1, Yak-1b and Yak-3 and the second is the Yak-7 two-seat training aircraft. Due to heavy losses in 1941, the Yak-7s began to be released as combat fighters and Yak-9 is the further development of this fighter.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

10 hours ago, BlackSix said:

The Yak-9 isn't the same as Yak-1B as appearance can deceive, it's very close in design to the late modification of Yak-7b you have in BOK. There were two branches of the evolution of Yakovlev fighters. The first branch is the Yak-1, Yak-1b and Yak-3 and the second is the Yak-7 two-seat training aircraft. Due to heavy losses in 1941, the Yak-7s began to be released as combat fighters and Yak-9 is the further development of this fighter.

Yes I know there are some differences, but my point is that at the end of the day it's a very similar plane, with very similar characteristics (similar if not the same speed, similar climbrate, similar turn rate, same armament, very similar cockpit and all round visibility) and both cover more or less the same historical timeframe.

If you got the Yak-1B as collector plane then there aren't many reasons to get the early Yak-9 as it's essentially the same experience as a fighter plane. In my opinion if we are going to get a new collector Yak it would be better for a variant that differentiates it better from the current Yak-1B, the Yak-9T is a good candidate, another one could be one of the late war variants that can be used with the La-5FN in missions set to late war settings against LW's Bodenplatte planes.

Edited March 4, 2019 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, ACG_Kai_Lae said:

After looking into it more, it seems that it would have been hungarian aircraft, and they would have been Me-210's, though heavily modified. One hungarian model packed a 40mm bofors cannon as it's armament. 

 

There were no Hungarian 210s even remotely anywhere near Kursk - just their fighters and some recon planes of other types.

4 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

To answer Kai's question, yeah the core of the planeset is already present in the sim, however there could be a couple more interesting planes like the Ju 87 D-5, P-39N, I suppose later P-40s were also present? (something like a K or M)

 

No P-40s were at Kursk, based on the lists I've seen.

[Finkeren]

I actually think the main aircraft missing for a Kursk planeset would be a late production LaGG-3 (Series 66 standard is often thrown around, but that might actually be a little too late for Kursk) a LaGG-3 with lightened construction, slats on the wings and the late type canopy is something I would be happy paying for. 

[Ribbon]

3 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Yes I know there are some differences, but my point is that at the end of the day it's a very similar plane, with very similar characteristics (similar if not the same speed, similar climbrate, similar turn rate, same armament, very similar cockpit and all round visibility) and both cover more or less the same historical timeframe.

If you got the Yak-1B as collector plane then there aren't many reasons to get the early Yak-9 as it's essentially the same experience as a fighter plane. In my opinion if we are going to get a new collector Yak it would be better for a variant like differentiates it better from the current Yak-1B, the Yak-9T is a good candidate, another one could be one of the late war variants that can be used with the La-5FN in missions set to late war settings against LW's Bodenplatte planes.

For a dogfight Yak-3 would be best option imo!

Performance wise, it was big step up from yak 1b or yak7b.

Same with yak 9 but it was heavier and less maneuverable than yak3.

Yak3 all the way!

[Chief_Mouser]

With the Kursk map being small (106 x 106 km IIRC) it is tailor-made for ground-attackers and not so much fun for high-level bombers. Lots of short 30-40 km target distances make it ideal for low-level high intensity tank-busting and subsequent dogfights. Really looking forward to it as an aerial map every bit as much as a tank map. The Yak-9 is the only aircraft that I consider to be 'missing', but everything else we have already. The map might actually increase the sales of Tank Crew because of its aerial potential.

[CountZero]

12 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

For a dogfight Yak-3 would be best option imo!

Performance wise, it was big step up from yak 1b or yak7b.

Same with yak 9 but it was heavier and less maneuverable than yak3.

Yak3 all the way!

They cant fit Yak-3 in any existing SP campaign, so i dont expect any late war vvs fighter.

Only fighter that could show something better performing they could fit in existing SP campaigns is Yak-9T.

 

Yak-9 performance is like Yak-1B, look is also similar it would make no sence to have that airplane as collector airplane, its better to have it saved for some future DLC pack of 10 airplanes. Having Yak-1B and Yak-9 as collector airplanes your not double sale, ppl just take one or other no need for both.

 

On Kursk from what i could see Yak-9T squadrons was operating on north map area we will not have, so i dont expect it to be added because of tank map, and its small map. All main airplanes you need to depict battles over Kursk map area tank guys get are in game already.

 

[Dutchvdm]

I might be skeptical, but i wonder how useful the Kursk tank map will be for aircraft operations. At higher altitude (Above 4000m) the map borders will be visible quite a lot. 

 

Grt M  

[CountZero]

1 minute ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

I might be skeptical, but i wonder how useful the Kursk tank map will be for aircraft operations. At higher altitude (Above 4000m) the map borders will be visible quite a lot. 

 

Grt M  

i also expect it to be used in some SP ground attacker airplane operations or in coop, or combined with limited airplanes in DF server for tanks, but on normal air vs air DF servers it has no use, and also for any dinamic campaign based servers no use its just to small.

[Dutchvdm]

Just now, 77.CountZero said:

i also expect it to be used in some SP ground attacker airplane operations or in coop, or combined with limited airplanes in DF server for tanks, but on normal air vs air DF servers it has no use, and also for any dinamic campaign based servers no use its just to small.

 

For Hs-129 and Il-2's those limitation's might indeed be not such a big deal. 

 

Grt M

[jeanba]

7 minutes ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

I might be skeptical, but i wonder how useful the Kursk tank map will be for aircraft operations. At higher altitude (Above 4000m) the map borders will be visible quite a lot. 

 

Grt M  

It is very similar to the "Prokorovka" map in the old IL2, and quite a number of missions were flown there.

But would it be interesting if you don't want to play tanks ?

I am not so sure

[[DBS]Browning]

With a new fuel system on the horizon, the Yak9D might be a good option.

[Diggun]

17 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

Having Yak-1B and Yak-9 as collector airplanes your not double sale, ppl just take one or other no need for both

I bought the -1b and would happily buy a -9. And a -3!

[BlackSix]

1 hour ago, Finkeren said:

I actually think the main aircraft missing for a Kursk planeset would be a late production LaGG-3 (Series 66 standard is often thrown around, but that might actually be a little too late for Kursk) a LaGG-3 with lightened construction, slats on the wings and the late type canopy is something I would be happy paying for. 

AFAIK, there weren't any LaGG-3 regiments for our area of the map. I was able to find only Yak-1/7b/9 and La-5/5F regiments when we were looking for the airfields.

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Diggun said:

I bought the -1b and would happily buy a -9. And a -3!

I have Yak-1b and would skip on Yak-9, while i would see reason to buy Yak-9T as i could use 37mm. I would buy Yak-3 as i see it need for MP if game goes with next DLC to PTO atleast vvs fans could have some top performer to fight Axis late war airplanes, but as their main costumers are SP Yak-3 has no place in game as they would not have most ppl buying it, as they can not use it in SP for anything then QM battles. Same with Yak-9M/U or La-7, no SP probabilitys for them, i would buy them but im in minority that plays MP most and would use them there. If there is option to make collectable airplane that can be usefule to all its beter spending time on that one, then airplane that can be usefule to only small part of users.

Edited March 4, 2019 by 77.CountZero

[yogy]

One A/C which was first used in Unternehmen Zitadelle was the Ju-87D-5:

• easy to derive from the D-3
• much better as a ground attacker with its 2x20mm MG151/20 and the bigger wingspan
• also base for 90% of the Kanonenvögel - the Ju-87G with the 37mm underwing gondolas

 

The main model of the Yak-9 was the D-series and its slightly improved successor, the M-series. Similar to the "T", but with a 20mm cannon instead of the 37mm. See attachment.

 

Actually, for the Eastern front, after Bodenplatte is released, I only miss some AI aircraft like Fw-189, DC-3, Me-323 or floatplanes.

[Chief_Mouser]

3 hours ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

 

For Hs-129 and Il-2's those limitation's might indeed be not such a big deal. 

 

Grt M

 

Exactly. As a, primarily, ground-pounder I seldom go above 300m. Get a nosebleed if I do .

Cheers.

[40plus]

13 hours ago, ACG_Kai_Lae said:

So I was thinking. We are getting a Kursk map, though (so far) we aren't getting a Kursk plane set. What would that plane set look like? I did some quick checking and it basically looked like the Kuban plane set, for the most part. The planes that I know of that are missing seem to be the Yak-9, and the Me-410 (apparently used by Romania in the battle, at least). However, I'm not that up on exact OOB so I was wondering if my quick hit was accurate?

 

Were the ME-410 be offered as a collector plane, money may very well burst out of my wallet. Could be hazardous.

[Juri_JS]

No Me-210s/410s at Kursk, but let's not forget the Ju-88 C-6. At Kursk it was used as night fighter by IV./NJG 5 and as ground attacker, especially against trains.

[jeanba]

Agree

 

The Ju88C6 would be a nice addition, though the map might be too small for this plane

[[DBS]Browning]

7 minutes ago, jeanba said:

Agree

 

The Ju88C6 would be a nice addition, though the map might be too small for this plane

 

If we get a Ju88C, I want a Pe-3 bis!

Edit: or one of the Pe-2 fighter variants.

Edited March 4, 2019 by [DBS]Browning

[jeanba]

I love Pe3 too.

I think they can be used over Moscow

Pe3bis as recon over Stalingrad ?

 

But about Prokhorovka, I don't know ?

 

[sevenless]

I would really love to have an SP career option to branch out from Kuban to Kursk (say for III./JG 52 or whatever unit) and then back to Kuban or end of career after Kursk and then next step BoBP. That´ll be great for SP. Oh yes, and all the YAKs you can bring on, sure.

Edited March 4, 2019 by sevenless

[ACG_KaiLae]

I'm up for a Yak-9 so speak for yourself...I'd love a series 66 LaGG. In fact give me a series 4 or 8 LaGG, so we can add more variety to our BoM campaign. And a series 34/35 for BoS. And a stuka B model, a D5..

 

I got money, make me planes I'll pay you!

[-LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor]

I would rather some more early variants of the lagg than the later ones.

[yogy]

On 3/5/2019 at 4:22 AM, -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor said:

I would rather some more early variants of the lagg than the later ones.

Definitley correct from a numerical perspective, as the LaGG-3 was already phased out in 1943 pretty fast. Anyway, even higher priority has the Yak-9D/M/T, it was by far the most-produced soviet fighter. The Eastern Front needs a 1944 addon with

- Yak-9D/M/T

- Yak-3

- Bf109 G-10

- Fw190F-8/9 with Panzerblitz

- Ju-87D-5

- La-7 (oh no, stop that evil Über-plane   ).

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, yogy said:

Fw190F-8/9 with Panzerblitz

 

Panzerblitz is already in the game. 

[RAY-EU]

Sorry Back after Kursk to the Defense of the Reich for Axis rockets evaluation : 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerblitz_(missile)

 

Panzerblitzt rockets I 80mm. In the picture up illustration.

Panzerblitzt rockets II 80mm what we have in FW190 A8 in IL2 BoBp of The Wikipedia rocket photo at the beginning. Of 1945 . 12 rockets in total 

R4M rockets 55mm photography Wikipedia where appear ME 262 for the FW190 A8 FW190 D9 and ME 262 A1b . Of 1944 . 24 rockets in total 

All Antitanks rockets . ?

R4M rockets : as the R4M typically had a flight speed of roughly 1,890 km/h (1,175 mph). Two warheads were available for the R4M, the common PB-3 with a 0.4 kg charge for anti-aircraft use and the larger shaped charge, similar in construction to the Panzerschreck, the Panzerblitz (PB-2/3), for anti-tankuse. The Panzerblitz III, mounting a gigantic 210 mm hollow charge warhead (the same calibre as the BR 21), can be seen as the ultimate development of the basic Orkan rocket.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4M

 

My question would be if the R4M 55 mm rocket was only an antiaircraft air to air rocket R4M PB-3 or was also the PB-2/3 an Antitank rockets of same size of 55mm  with the capability to destroy a tank available to carry for the FW190 A8  , FW190 D9 and ME 262 A1b or the model rocket PB-2/3 is the Panzerblitz II of 80mm only for the FW190 A8 ?

 

Answer: https://www.albentley-drawings.com/drawings/equipment/missiles/r4m-air-to-air-missile-and-launch-rail/

 

 

 

 

 

 Right 2 war rockets heads 80mm used in 

                                                                                                                    IL2 for the FW190 A8 for antitanks 12 in total . Panzerblitz I & II 80mm war head antitank .

Though this broadside-attack tactic was effective, it came too late to have a real effect on the war, and only small numbers of Me 262s were equipped with the rocket packs.^[56] Most of those so equipped were Me 262A-1a models, members of Jagdgeschwader 7.^[

For the ME 262 A1b  Also  2 X  BR21 Antitank rockets  :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werfer-Granate_21                                               

 Left 2 war rockets heads 55 mm for the ME 262 A1b , FW190 A8 and FW190 D9 air to air  B-25 or light trucks , AA .

                                                                                                             24 in total 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by RAY-EU
R4M rockets 55mm

[FTC_Kongoo]

On 3/4/2019 at 1:55 PM, BlackSix said:

AFAIK, there weren't any LaGG-3 regiments for our area of the map. I was able to find only Yak-1/7b/9 and La-5/5F regiments when we were looking for the airfields.

 

Sorry to bother you with us, do you happen to know the names of the airfields in which the VVS operated in this scope of Kursk? As far as I know, it was the 2 Air army that participated and they were located in airfields in the vicinity of Oboyan and perhaps Stary Oksol?

 

Do you happen to know the names of them and which division was where?

Very much appreciated if you could provide it.

 

 

[BlackSix]

5 hours ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Sorry to bother you with us, do you happen to know the names of the airfields in which the VVS operated in this scope of Kursk? As far as I know, it was the 2 Air army that participated and they were located in airfields in the vicinity of Oboyan and perhaps Stary Oksol?

 

Do you happen to know the names of them and which division was where?

Very much appreciated if you could provide it.

I can't answer this question. We reconstructed the location of airfields in July-August 1943 and we also had a list of units. But this time I did not research the history of their basing, since an aviation career was not intended for this project, and such work takes a very long time. There is a lot of conflicting information on this issue and the original archival documents need to be investigated.

[FTC_Kongoo]

22 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

I can't answer this question. We reconstructed the location of airfields in July-August 1943 and we also had a list of units. But this time I did not research the history of their basing, since an aviation career was not intended for this project, and such work takes a very long time. There is a lot of conflicting information on this issue and the original archival documents need to be investigated.

Yeah I´m looking at the archives on pamyat and i´ve found some documents from the time frame june-August. But I´ll have to find me a russian to look at it.

 

Thanks anyhow !