Bit confused about the turn/bank indicator behavior

[ladlon]

So, I understand the turn indicator on a regular plane (as far as showing the amount of slip happening, to use as a guide to make coordinated turns), but I'm a little puzzled by the He111's indicator.

 

Maybe the references I have been watching are wrong or misleading, so I just wanted to verify stuff...

 

-First of all, the BALL is showing yaw slip, correct?

-To get the ball centered (while flying straight), I should be adjusting RUDDER TRIM, correct?

-What is the stick/arm i the display indicating?  Roll/Bank?

 

I sometime struggle getting the ball centered.  Often, rudder trim will get it moving (usually past center, to the opposite side), so I try and carefully trim, but often find it's hard to actually get it centered.  Is this a case where the aileron trim also needs to be altered in order to get the rudder trim to center the ball properly?

 

I had one flight, where my artificial horizon and the real horizon didn't seem to jive!  In order to have the real horizon level, my artificial horizon was (rather highly) banked!  I have no idea what that was about.  Artificial horizons don't get out of sync/offset.. or do they?  (I've never heard of that... and the plane certainly wasn't damaged).  I'm not aware of any means to level an AH before takeoff, if that even were the case.

 

So, most of the time, I can get straight and level flight... but the issue is that the instruments sometimes don't really match that reality... so, I'm confused as to what is going on there, or what I'm misunderstanding.

 

 

[Sokol1]

1, 2, 3 - yes.

 

CloD instruments - Directional Gyro, Compass, Artificial Horizon... suffer "precession", maybe a bit exaggerated, add the lack of certain related features like cage for Compass and DG, Luber Line in compass... and things became worse than RL. 

 

Good luck when try IRF navigation in (CloD) British planes. ?

 

[ladlon]

...aaaaand we plummet further down the rabbit hole!

 

Sheesh!  I really should stop 'poking at it', shouldn't I!

 

Hrmm...  Okay, well precession is fine and all... I mean, that's realistic.  But, there doesn't seem to be a way to re-sync the AH.  The DG seems to have a system (where you manually align it to the magnetic compass... and I assume the magnetic compass precession is 'temporary', in that it just gets bounced around during turns and stuff, but when left in level flight, it drifts back?...... or am I mistaken in that.  If I AM mistaken, how does one re-sync the magnetic compass then?   (or is that what caging does?   I was always a bit iffy on the whole caging thing.  My understanding is that it simply 'holds/locks down' the compass steady, not allowing it to freely drift/spin... although I wasn't ever sure WHY that would be used... aside from maybe holding it steady as you manually re-align it or something?

 

Also... maybe I missed something here (...seems to be happening...), but I didn't notice a way to set the barometer for the Altitude gauge.  Is that present, or is there some other means to deal with  that... or is it completely ignored in the sim?   (...See, this is the kind of torment you unearth once you actually decide to try and do things 'properly' and follow proper procedure, rathr than just zip around through the skies in full anarchy mode!)

[Sokol1]

25 minutes ago, ladlon said:

and I assume the magnetic compass precession is 'temporary', in that it just gets bounced around during turns and stuff, but when left in level flight, it drifts back?.

 

Yes, you need fly leveled a bit for things setting. Directional Gyro need more attention, after ~20 m of flight he became un-synchronized with compass magnetic heading, worse when do wild maneuvers.

 

Quote

Also... maybe I missed something here (...seems to be happening...), but I didn't notice a way to set the barometer for the Altitude gauge.  

 

 

Options > Controls > Aircraft > Keys

 

Adjust Altimeter - Minus

Adjust Altimeter - Plus

 

Don't ask about "anemometer" adjust, this is possible set for Fiat Br. 20. Until today, I do not know for what practical purpose...

Edited March 2, 2019 by Sokol1

[ladlon]

Ugh, sorry... Ya, I should have spotted that.

 

I guess the thing that's been throwing me off on a lot of these things is the lack of a physical button/knob on the actual dashboard.  I just assume that any feature would have both a physical (clickable) knob, plus a keyboard/joystick shortcut.  Such a weird inconsistancy in things... and I'm not sure why.  They have the systems in place, but only use it for SOME of the items (ex. have this lovely hand crank animation when you open the bomb bay doors from the bombadier's station in the He11, yet don't have a barometic dial... yet have OTHER dials....... They have lovely gear up/down animations.. but don't allow the canopy to be opened/closed when you are in an external view, even though there is an open/closed canopy state of the external model...).  Just doesn't seem to have a logical reasoning...  I can only imagine it was TIME that prevented the coding of these certain things.  But, what do I know...)

 

Ha!...  I think eventually I was going to ask about the anemometer... but, you beat me to that.  That keyboard/joystick binding list contains a few mysteries...

 

Odd that the structure of that got changed (for the worse, I feel) between CloD and Blitz... or is it 1946 and Blitz/CloD?...  Before, it was further visually subdivided with headings, which helps a bit in making sense of the lists of different commands.   (...and what's with all the huge fonts, anyway?!  They could fit so much more in if they wouldn't go all 'Fisher-Price' with the font sizes!)

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

About the altimeter setting. I often hear that pilots set the AF setting(pressure) for take-off and landing, but after airborne switch to the standard pressure. 

[Buzzsaw]

On 3/2/2019 at 2:45 PM, Sokol1 said:

1, 2, 3 - yes.

 

CloD instruments - Directional Gyro, Compass, Artificial Horizon... suffer "precession", maybe a bit exaggerated, add the lack of certain related features like cage for Compass and DG, Luber Line in compass... and things became worse than RL. 

 

Good luck when try IRF navigation in (CloD) British planes. ?

 

This is your opinion.

 

If the instruments were unaffected by precession and showed perfect consistency from the start of the flight to the end they would be more inaccurate.

 

The game includes these features because it does focus on accurate depiction of the flight process... other games do not.

[=420=Syphen]

On 3/2/2019 at 5:56 PM, ladlon said:

...aaaaand we plummet further down the rabbit hole!

 

Sheesh!  I really should stop 'poking at it', shouldn't I!

 

Hrmm...  Okay, well precession is fine and all... I mean, that's realistic.  But, there doesn't seem to be a way to re-sync the AH.  The DG seems to have a system (where you manually align it to the magnetic compass... and I assume the magnetic compass precession is 'temporary', in that it just gets bounced around during turns and stuff, but when left in level flight, it drifts back?...... or am I mistaken in that.  If I AM mistaken, how does one re-sync the magnetic compass then?   (or is that what caging does?   I was always a bit iffy on the whole caging thing.  My understanding is that it simply 'holds/locks down' the compass steady, not allowing it to freely drift/spin... although I wasn't ever sure WHY that would be used... aside from maybe holding it steady as you manually re-align it or something?

 

Also... maybe I missed something here (...seems to be happening...), but I didn't notice a way to set the barometer for the Altitude gauge.  Is that present, or is there some other means to deal with  that... or is it completely ignored in the sim?   (...See, this is the kind of torment you unearth once you actually decide to try and do things 'properly' and follow proper procedure, rathr than just zip around through the skies in full anarchy mode!)

 

Gyroscopic procession only affects instruments that rely on a gyro in order for them to run. So that means it'll affect Turn / Slip, Directional Gyro (DG), Attitude indicator (if equipped).  There is no magnetic procession, that isn't a thing. Magnetic compasses only work when they are flat and level. They will read wrong if you are accelerating, decelerating, climbing, diving, or turning. There is a reason why most of these aircraft come with a DG AND a magnetic compass. The compass is used to set the DG initially as it is unaffected by all maneuvers of flight.  This likely explains why you are seeing bad readings on the magnetic compass, as you are looking at it during turns and such.

 

That said, magnetic compasses aren't always correct due to magnetic variance, so usually during an aircraft's annual, they will take the plane out to the tarmac somewhere at an airfield where they have a compass rose painted on the ground. They will line the plane up with all the headings and "swing the compass". Measure how accurate the compass is, and fill out a card with this information. 

 

Regarding caging, I have not seen a magnetic compass that has a caging function. Caging is usually for gyro instruments to prevent them from tumbling during certain stages of flight. Aggressive maneuvers such as spins and such can cause a gyro to 'tumble' and the gauge will become totally inaccurate. 

 

Your attitude indicator (artificial horizon) was possibly off due to gyro tumbling. 

 

You should be able to adjust your altimeter setting in CloD, as it was available in real life. In BoX series, you either get standard pressure or setting at closest field.

Edited April 18, 2019 by [CPT]HawkeyeP

[Sokol1]

On 4/18/2019 at 8:16 AM, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

You should be able to adjust your altimeter setting in CloD, as it was available in real life. In BoX series, you either get standard pressure or setting at closest field.

 

You can, set keys in Controls > Aircraft

 

 

CLIFFS OF DOVER AIRFIELD ELEVATIONS list - if want know for other places set a object on ground in FMB and look his Z coordinates.
 

 

 

IL2 STURMOVIK CLIFFS OF DOVER AIRFIELD ELEVATIONS

UK AIRFIELDS

Bembridge 13m 43ft
Biggin Hill 179m 587ft
Boscombe Down 127m 417ft
Canterbury 51m 167ft
Croydon 101m 331ft
Eastchurch 7m 23ft
Farnborough 77m 253ft
Ford 1m 3ft
Gatwick 60m 197ft
Gosport 1m 3ft
Hamble 20m 66ft
Harewell 120m 394ft
Hawkinge 158m 518ft
Heathrow 23m 75ft
Hendon 50m 163ft
Heston 30m 98ft
Hornchurch 10m 33ft
Kenley 174m 571ft
Larkhill 114m 374ft
Lee On Solent 10m 33ft
Littlestone 22m 72ft
Lympne 100m 328ft
Maidstone 84m 275ft
Manston 44m 14ft
Netheravon 119m 390ft
North Weald 80m 262ft
Northolt 37m 121ft
Old Sarum 79m 259ft
Portsmouth 1m 3ft
Ramsgate 47m 154ft
Reading 46m 151ft
Redhill 24m 79ft
Rochester 130m 426ft
Rochford 10m 33ft
Ryde 52m 171ft
Salisbury 131m 430ft
Sandown 21m 69ft
Southhampton 9m 30ft
Tangmere 12m 40ft
Thorney Island 1m 3ft
Upavon 147m 482ft
Watchfield 100m 328ft
West Hampnett 21m 69ft
White Waltham 36m 118ft
Willimington 22m 72ft
Yatesbury 170m 558ft

FRENCH AIRFIELDS

Abbeville 61m 200ft
Achiet Grevillers 127m 417ft
Amiens Allonville 89m 292ft
Amiens Glisy 59m 194ft
Aras St Liger 109m 358ft
Arras 98m 321ft
Audembert 42m 138ft
Barly 122m 400ft
Barly 112m 367ft
Beamont Le Roger 139m 456ft
Beauvais Nivllers 120m 394ft
Beauvais Tille 99m 325ft
Berk 1m 3ft
Bernay St Martin 161m 528ft
Bolsjean Ecuires 57m 187ft
Brias 150m 492ft
Brombos 191m 627ft
Bulougne Alperch 69m 226ft
Caen Carpiquet 61m 200ft
Caffiers 112m 367ft
Calms Marck 2m 7ft
Carquebut 20m 197ft
Champ Les Guines 75m 246ft
Colembert 198m 649ft
Coquelles 13m 43ft
Cramont Yurtench 121m 397ft
Crecy 141m 462ft
Creil 101m 331ft
Crepon 59m 194ft
Deanville St Gatien 140m 459ft
Desures 200m 656ft
Dieppe 101m 331ft
Estree 80m 262ft
Grandvilliers 180m 590ft
Guines 46m 151ft
Haute Fontaine 180m 590ft
Horm Elingen 161m 528ft
Hydrequent 78m 256ft
Le Havre Octeville96m 314ft
Le Touquet 1m 3ft
Licescourt 70m 230ft
Marquise West 24m 79ft
Merville calonne 9m 30ft
Monchy Briton 150m 492ft
Montdidier 108m 354ft
Oye- Plage 2m 7ft
Persan Beaumont 42m 138ft
Peuplinguess 101m 331ft
Pihen 96m 315ft
Plumetot 40m 131ft
Poiy Nord 171m 561ft
Querqueville 1m 3ft
Rezy Norrent fontes 94m 308ft
Rosieres En Santifer 82m 269ft
Rouen Boos 140m 459ft
Roye Amy 83m 272ft
Samer 61m 200ft
Sempy 120m 394ft
St Inglewert 129m 423ft
St Omer Arques 29m 95ft
St Omer Clairmarrias 9m 29ft
St Omer Wizennes 78m 256ft
Theville 135m 443ft
Tramecourt 126m 413ft
Wailly Beauchamp 51m 167ft
Wissant 21m 69ft
Yvrench 110m 361ft
Zuterque 36m 118ft
 

 

 

In a test with CloD early version (2011) with He 111 DG show a precession of ~20º per hour.

 

 

 

From Vencejo post in Esquadron 69 forum:

 

Avión: HE-111 H (con permiso de Tuckie)
Mapa del canal
Base: Rosieres-en-Santerre
Meteo: default

Avión en cabecera 25, motores parados, rumbo magnético 251º.

Hora/QFE/Temp. ambiente/Temp. agua-aceite motor izq/Temp. agua-aceite motor derch/ind. giroscopio//

1200/984/15/16-15/20-18/-//
1300/984/13/15-15/19-18/-//
1400/984/12/15-14/19-17/-//
1500/984/11/14-14/18-17/-//
1600/984/9.4/14-13/18-16/-//
1610~1620 enciendo luces de cabina//
1700/984/7.5/13-13/17-15/101//
1800/984/5.6/13-12/16-15/120//
1900/984/3.5/12-12/15-14/140//
2000/984/1.2/11-11/15-13/161//
2005 puesta de sol//
2100/984/-1/11-10/14-13/181//
2200/984/-3.3/10-10/13-12/200//
Entre las 2200 y 2300 me doy cuenta de que se acabó la batería//
2300/984/-6.1/9-9/12-11/220//
2400/984/-9.1/8-8/11-10/244//
0100/984/-12/7-7/10-9/266//
Desde esta hora, hasta las 0345 imposible ver instrumentos por falta total de visibilidad//
0400/984/-24/4-4/5-5/324//
0410 amanece//
0500/984/-33/1-1/1-1/349//
0600/984/-40/0-0/0-0/011//
0700/984/-40/0-0/0-0/030//
0800/984/-40/0-0/0-0/051//
0900/984/-40/0-0/0-0/0/072//
0900 arranco motores pasando la temperatura ambiente a -12º//
1000/984/-5.5/0-0/-0-0/093//
1010/empiezan a parpadear las luces de cabina//
1020/las luces de cabina mantienen su luz//
1100/984/-4/0-0/0-0/114//
1105/paro motores//
1120/se acaban las baterias//
1200/984/-/0-0/0-0/135//
1215/arranco motores//
1225/vuelven las luces de cabina//

Comentarios:

La presión atmosférica no varía.

La temperatura ambiente si varía, aproximádamente 1º/hora.

Están contempladas la descarga y carga de baterías.

Cuando la batería se descarga, dejan de funcionar las luces de cabina, todos los indicadores de temperatura y el visor de bombardeo de manera inmediata. Los indicadores de fuel dejan de funcionar mas tarde.

Con batería de nuevo, todo vuelve a marcar lo que debe excepto los indicadores de temperatura de los motores, que no empezarán a marcar correctamente hasta que éstos no cojan temperatura.

Mola el efecto de las luces cuando quieren volver a encender, como una bombilla mal enroscada.
El giroscopio tiene un error de unos 20º/hora=5º/15´ ¡parado!

Si estamos en vuelo y vemos que no se nos encienden las luces de cabina, y/o la temperatura de los motores empieza a bajar, y no tenemos el visor de bombardeo, y si los indicadores de combustible marcan cero es que no tenemos electricidad. La única precaución que es que no nos podremos fiar de lo que nos digan los termómetros de agua/aceite de los motores, por lo que yo abriría un poco mas los radiadores y quitaría un punto de gas, por si las moscas.
 

 

 

 

In this document (posted in Bo'X Spitfire's DG&Compass own "peculiarities"), say 3º at 15/20 minutes.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Sokol1