Blitz bombing... Sea level or Ground level?

[ladlon]

Just wanted to verify something that is confusing me...

 

In the BLITZ version, do you still have to subtract the target elevation from the indicated altitude reading (as the CloD manual explains), or just use the indicated altitude as is (...as shown in some bombing tutorial videos)?

 

The tutorial vids make no mention of this, and seem to sucessfully hit targets using indicated altitude... and I myself seem to be able to get a ground lock solution without subtracting elevation.

 

Did Blitz remove that?  (...I'd be GLAD if they did!  I was really happy to see you don't have to convert between metric and Imperial, like you did in earlier versions of IL2)

 

If you DO still have to subtract elevations, then how do you deal with non-airport targets (which do not have their elevation info listed in some guide)?  I guess, in vanilla CloD/Blitz, you'd only be attacking airports or ships, and the ships are obviously at sea/zero level... I can't say I've seen anything like bombing (non-airport) buildings.... but what about something like tanks?  (...or, do they not do that sort of thing?)

[DenUA]

Think - how was it really, in life? ? Why this game should be different?
This is not an arcade ...

[ladlon]

So, I guess the tutorial videos are wrong then?  That's why I'm confused.  There was a contradiction there, between them and the manual (which, to be fair, is for CloD, not Blitz, so I wasn't sure if it was changed during that transition).

 

Weird thing is, the guy managed to hit all his targets doing it his way (just using indicated altitude, as well as indicated airspeed).

 

So then, my question is still valid... How to you attack non-airfield targets, where (I'd assume) you don't have a convenient height report to know the deviation from?  Ships, obviously, are at sea level, so altitude would be 0 (true altitude)... But what about bombing other targets?  Or, do you not bomb anything other than airfields and ships?

 

I wonder, too, if it's not still valid to determine the proper bombing solution by adjusting the alt and vel settings until you get a steady ground track?  Or, can there be more than one 'solution' (resulting in a locked ground track), but they would not result in a target hit, despite the solid track?

Edited March 2, 2019 by ladlon

[Buzzsaw]

Hello Ladlon

 

I would recommend you do a search on the forums, (ATAG mostly) for guides to bombing.

[Sokol1]

On 3/1/2019 at 12:58 PM, ladlon said:

The tutorial vids make no mention of this, and seem to sucessfully hit targets using indicated altitude...

 

That's a controversial matter. In Russian section of ATAG forum an "experten" in level bombing with He 111 suggest that target altitude is not modeled in CloD.

He fly at given altitude (e.g. 7000m) and only adjust in bombsight speed and angle, using the table in this post:

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22101

 

Usually he hit the target in the (RiP) SoW online campaigns.

 

https://youtu.be/Yg1SU2Zk1ww

 

Anyway in Colander's "Level Bombing  Utility", target (and home base) altitude is computed when you click in target area. 

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/utils/lotfe7.html

 

Link in Clod Tools: 

https://clodtools.weebly.com/

 

BTW - You can use this web tools over game screen using STEAM Web Browser (Shift + Tab). 

FYI - Some people that "feed" their computers with strange things say STEAM Browser overlay can cause "collateral effects", no issue for me.  

 

In the picture Dreieckrechner DR3* disk (an 1940's "flight computer") over CloD:

 

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28790

 

* Look inside this folder: 

...\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\IL-2 Sturmovik Cliffs of Dover Blitz\Printable Airfields

 

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Sokol1

[ladlon]

Yup, I got that CloD tools page bookmarked and shortcutted already!  I definitely have to dive into this stuff next.

 

 

BTW, I found this online one as well....

 

https://www.e6bx.com/e6b/

 

I haven't seen a link to this particular one on this forum yet, so I figured I'd point it out, in case it's of use to you guys...

[ladlon]

Well, I just read the bombing section in the official CloD manual... and it might as well have just had a picture of some guy shrugging....

 

It does verify one of my previous questions/concerns... that there ARE more than one 'bombing solutions' which will result in a solid ground track... as it could be either the altitude OR the airspeed settings that need to be adjusted.... but at that point, just says 'you can't really tell which one... Sorry....'.

 

It does point out that you need true airspeed, and the proper altitude (from the ground, not sea level)... and, in both cases, fully (and unashamedly) says 'you will rarely actually know it'.... and then simply says it's a matter of guesswork and trial&error... then gives you a pat on the back and wishes you well.

 

Trial and error?...  You get like one chance!  (...good grief)

 

And, it still begs the question... how do you bomb non-airport targets, where you (I assume) don't have the target elevation value?  (...I guess that's another shrug, then...)

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by ladlon

[ladlon]

Hey, is the bombing system for the He111 the same in 1946 as it is in CloD Blitz?... or are there any differences (including not just the processes, but things like all the factors like TAS, the units used, commands availalbe, etc).

 

Just wondering if there's ANY difference between the two, or if I'll have some (possibly unpleasant) suprise when using 1946.

 

I just watched a bombing tutorial vid some guy make for 1946, but I'm not sure he's doing things correctly, so it's hard to tell...

Edited March 3, 2019 by ladlon

[Sokol1]

For Luftwaffe is very similar - in fact seems that bombsight, methods, was borrowed from 1946.

 

[Sokol1]

Ladlon

 

I suspect that your career as bomber pilot in ClouD is in halt, but in any case. ?

 

In other topic I have said for you that in CloD Quick Mission wind conditions - direction and speed, is not know, as the mission briefing don't inform (mission maker fault) neither "ground controller" or plane "navigator" - initially was planed as part of orders, but due bugs on release this part was "sweep under the rug". 

 

But using Dreieckrechner DR3 you can estimate this in flight, in He 111 only because is the only bomber of the game that have a thermometer in cockpit showing outside air temperature (OAT) needed for convert IAS to TAS in DR-3. Or use TAS for external calculator, e.g. Colander's "Level Bombing  Utility" on ATAG.

 

 

As example assume that plane fly on the route of 300º at 300 KM/H IAS,  3.500 meters of altitude and OAT is -40º, and is need estimate wind direction and speed.

First is need determine what is the plane TAS for their actual IAS at altitude and temperature.



-  In DR-3 disk - calculator side, place the 300 of outer scale of black disk under the -40 of the inner scale of white outer disk (1).

- Move the blue cursor for over 3.5 mark (altitude) in outer scale of external white disk (2).

- Read TAS in the outer scale of black disk, under blue cursor central line (3) = 330 (KM/H).
 
Now for determine wind direction and speed:

- Fly the plane for 2 minutes in a course at 30º of flight course - or 270º, and place bombsight crosshair  over a point on ground and adjust bombsight side slip until the crosshair remains parallel to this point. Take note the angle need to add or subtract in bombsight side slip adjust, is the drift caused by wind.

- Then fly for 2 minutes in a course 30º for the left - or 300º  and repeat the process.

The angle between the two legs (270º and 330º) need be 60º, because this value is pre-set in DR-3 disk.
 

Assuming that drift caused by wind measured in each leg is:
 

- The first measure, take at 270º, result in -4º.
- The second measure, take a 330º, and result in +6º.

Now in DREIECKRECHNER DR-3 disk, compass side, set the black arrow cursor (that represents airplane heading) under 270º , the dark red line with red dot - - placed 60º at left of this cursor, is automatically placed under 330º.

where is there a chase bank around me

 In the central part of white disk localize the mark - 4º (in blue) and follow the faint blue line near then until this line intersect with the faint red line close at +6º (in red).

Now place the center line (orange) of blue cursor over this intersection point, the tail of blue arrow point show the wind direction = 293º.

Notice the number of the circle more close to this intersection point, in this case is 15, that means that wind speed is 15% of plane TAS (15% of 330) = 49.5 km/H. If want convert this for meters per second use the calculator side of DR-3.

The method for determine the wind drift flight two legs in different directions is explained in this USAAF training video - since they use E6B, the legs is separated by 90º (value pre-set in E6B): 

 

 

Rostic  was posted in ATAG a excellent mission for bombing training in CLOD, with a big cross of multiple crosses over the target, for better evaluate the results.

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30256

 

In this video he explain how set the drift cause by wind in bombsight - is need double the value, probable another CloD "peculiarity" (bugs).

 

 

 

On 3/2/2019 at 9:38 PM, ladlon said:

BTW, I found this online one as well....

https://www.e6bx.com/e6b/

 

BTW - An E6B is not convenient in He 111, Ju 88, Pe-2... because this planes have their instruments in Metric system, what will require additional conversions for Imperial system of E6B then DR-3 disk is more practical. For  the same reason for British (e.g. Blenheim) or American planes the E6B is more practical than DR-3.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Sokol1

[Sokol1]

Quote

In this video he explain how set the drift cause by wind in bombsight - is need double the value, probable another CloD "peculiarity" (bugs).

 

The author of tip say that ending using 2x adjust by trial and error, but work for then, and that this USAAF Norden bombsight training video explain the bombs drift:

 

https://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=38124&d=1548101402

 

https://youtu.be/143vi97a4tY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Sokol1

[Enceladus828]

On 3/2/2019 at 10:37 PM, Sokol1 said:

in fact seems that bombsight, methods, was borrowed from 1946.

It's just a shame that they didn't add the bombsight method from the 2 previous games to IL-2 Great Battles.