Rjel Posted February 16, 2019 Posted February 16, 2019 I have never seen a picture of this P-51D before nor have I read anything about it while reading about the 4thFG. Has anyone any info if this was ever used operationally? June 1945 - Colonel Everett W. Stewart's personal mount, a specially modified P-51D Mustang, with its fuselage fuel tanks removed, a second seat for a radar operator, and a wing-mounted radar antenna.
AndyJWest Posted February 16, 2019 Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) Interesting. The antenna somewhat resembles the Yagi type the U.S. Navy ASB radar used (e.g. on the Avenger), but it isn't identical. Most later U.S. airborne radars used a dish. There also appears to be a second antenna above and below the wing. Edit: From the IWM catalogue record of the photo: Quote A two seat P-51 Mustang (VF-S, serial number 44-72210) of the 336th Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Group. "P.51D Mustang, coded VF-S, right-sided view, with cockpit double-split open. This was because the aircraft was modified to take a second seat for a radar operator, with antenna fitted on the wing and was the personal machine for Colonel Stewart, dated June 1945." Information provided by Debden historian Keith Braybrooke. http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/8063 Doesn't help much really. The 336th were based at Debden, where this photo was presumably taken (note the RAF roundels on the aircraft in the background). Edited February 16, 2019 by AndyJWest
AndyJWest Posted February 16, 2019 Posted February 16, 2019 Another photo of the same aircraft can be seen here: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205382477 Again, doesn't help much. Caption on the back says that the photo was taken at 'Nice Le Var, 1945'. No sign of the big antenna on the wing leading edge, but it seems to have a single antenna mounted outboard above and below the wing, and again has the split canopy by the look of it. More. From HIGH-SPIRITED MUSTANG Volume I: The saga of the North American Aviation P-51 Mustang by René J. Francillon, Eirl Aerosphere Research, 2017. Quote "Another noteworthy two-seat conversion before VE-Day was that of 44-72210, a D-20-NA, which was fitted with AI radar and went to the 336th FS, 4th FG, in May 1945" From that I think we can probably conclude it was a one-off.
Poochnboo Posted February 16, 2019 Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) I don't see how that could have been used with a radar operator. The area behind the seat on a WW2 Mustang held the radio equipment. They were rather large then. Where would the radio have gone? And where is the Radar dome? They were rather large, back then, too. See shots of the Radar equipped Hellcats used by the Navy in the Pacific. Is it that odd looking contraption on the leading edge of the right wing? This was, most likely, and experiment. Proof of concept sort of thing, I'm sure. Edited February 16, 2019 by Poochnboo
AndyJWest Posted February 16, 2019 Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) Summary of Everett Stewart's service with the 4th FG: http://www.4thfightergroupassociation.org/uploads/8/2/0/3/8203817/stewartesweba.pdf Confirms that the P-51 was his. 2 minutes ago, Poochnboo said: I don't see how that could have been used with a radar operator. The area behind the seat on a WW2 Mustang held the radio equipment. They were rather large then. Where would the radio have gone? And where is the Radar dome? They were rather large, back then, too. See shots of the Radar equipped Hellcats used thethe Navy in the Pacific. Is it that odd looking contraption on the leading edge of the right wing? This was, most likely, and experiment. Proof of concept sort of thing, I'm sure. Take a look at the radar installation on Grumman Avengers. No dome. Two Yagi antennae. Not identical to the 'contraption', but same principle. Edited February 16, 2019 by AndyJWest
Poochnboo Posted February 16, 2019 Posted February 16, 2019 Yeah, very similar. Like a later day TV antennea. I'd love to see what the back cockpit looked like.
Rjel Posted February 16, 2019 Author Posted February 16, 2019 I'd like to see how well the canopy sealed when closed. There must have been some terrific wind leaks from the rear third part. It still amazes me 70 plus years after the war to stumble across a photo like this.
Ehret Posted February 17, 2019 Posted February 17, 2019 There were F6F and F4u variants with radars thus it should be possible with the Mustang frame. With 2nd crew member as the radar operator it would be very cramped, thought. Perhaps, that's why it was only a prototype?
AndyJWest Posted February 17, 2019 Posted February 17, 2019 What I'd most like to know is what its proposed use was. The USAAF had a capable night fighter in the P-61, and had specialist squadrons to fly them. Why would the C/O of a day fighter group be involved in testing a night fighter? And if it wasn't intended for night use, why did it need radar? All rather odd, and I doubt we'll ever know.
Ehret Posted February 17, 2019 Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, AndyJWest said: What I'd most like to know is what its proposed use was. The USAAF had a capable night fighter in the P-61, and had specialist squadrons to fly them. Why would the C/O of a day fighter group be involved in testing a night fighter? And if it wasn't intended for night use, why did it need radar? All rather odd, and I doubt we'll ever know. Perhaps for recon/intelligence or meteorological purposes? Or acts like a radio decoy of some sorts?
Garven Posted February 17, 2019 Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said: Another pic Based on that cushion looking thing on the back of the pilots seat I'm going to guess the Radar operator faced rearwards. Makes sense as there would be more room for radar equipment that way. Edited February 17, 2019 by =AVG77=Garven
Ehret Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 I recall... I had read somewhere about a high ranking Allied commander who done some recon flights in a modified 2 seats P-51... after landings in Normandy time-frame. Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBhkN4R1eF4 Looks like an entirely different thing but interesting nonetheless.
ITAF_Caster Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 HI! Seems to be a "filed mod" of a British MK IV Radar ( or SCR-540 1.5m the American version)° for experimental purposes somewhere in England ° https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/NightFighterRadars/index.html 1
HBPencil Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 9 hours ago, Ehret said: I recall... I had read somewhere about a high ranking Allied commander who done some recon flights in a modified 2 seats P-51... after landings in Normandy time-frame. Found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBhkN4R1eF4 Looks like an entirely different thing but interesting nonetheless. A bit off topic but some more photos of 2 seat hacks here:http://axis-and-allies-paintworks.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?306.post
Elem Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 To add to the background info... http://www.americanairmuseum.com/unit/485
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