Mirrors.

[Panzerlang]

Can we please have them for the Pfalz? I know of at least one period photo with a mirror fitted on the wing above the cockpit. Otherwise I'm likely to wring my neck trying to see behind with VR. ?

[SP1969]

I second this.

 

My lipstick looks awful.

[Trooper117]

lol.... oh, I can see the outcry in MP if that happens!!!

[BMA_Hellbender]

33 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

lol.... oh, I can see the outcry in MP if that happens!!!

 

Hello, I’m here to represent MP outcry.

 

Funnily enough, the idea doesn’t seem outlandish compared to an entire squadron of D.Vas outfitted with trophy overwing Lewis guns, a possible sight in RoF. That said, we would like to see one period picture of a rear view mirror fitted on a plane. Just one. (I think that was the criteria of the trophy Lewis as well)

 

Screengrabs of the movie Flyboys photoshopped to look like they were taken in 1917 do not count.

[Trooper117]

Had the same outcry in the old IL2 Hb  

Someone produced a picture of a 109 with a mirror fitted and asked for it to be included... there was gnashing of teeth for weeks!

[HiIIBiIIy]

4 hours ago, Hellbender said:

 

Hello, I’m here to represent MP outcry.

 

 That said, we would like to see one period picture of a rear view mirror fitted on a plane. Just one. 

 

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4329848/nieuport-11-compass-gauges

[BMA_Hellbender]

45 minutes ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4329848/nieuport-11-compass-gauges

 

...the hell, and it's even a Belgian Nieuport with Willy bloody Coppens inside?

 

[gnashing of teeth intensifies]

 

This is a Nieuport 16, though — a Nieuport 11 with a 110hp engine and a synchronised Vickers mounted on the cowling instead of an overwing Lewis. We Belgians were hand-me-down baller like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh God I'm going to be sick, how did I never notice this?

 

I went through Walter Pieters' excellent The Belgian Air Service in the First World War and look what I found with mirrors attached:

 

 

 

Nieuport 16 (same picture as above)

 

 

 

 

Nieuport 17 (rectangular mirror for some reason):

 

 

 

 

Nieuport 23:

 

 

 

 

Nieuport Extreme Edition:

 

 

 

 

Sopwith Strutter:

 

 

 

 

And Breguet 14 (right above the pilot's head):

 

 

 

 

Can confirm that I didn't find a single mirror on Camels or Hanriots, but it wouldn't be far fetched to mount them on there either.

 

So, um.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Hellbender

[Darkowl]

A Dr1 and a D7 with mirrors. I think the Gunner's place has a mirror as well.

 

http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/instrumente/katalog 1WK/beobachtungsgerate/beobachtungsgerate.htm

[LukeFF]

There are photos of Spads with mirrors as well. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Is this just rear view, or can we get wing mirrors too? 

[HiIIBiIIy]

2 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Is this just rear view, or can we get wing mirrors too? 

Only on the Dolphin.

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

 

I can't decide which style I would prefer....

 

 

OR

 

I definitely see possibilities with the signals to my wingmates.....do I go for functionality or style?

 

[LukeFF]

Getting back on topic...

 

An example of a mirror fitted to a Spad 13 of Escadrille 65, and then the one fitted to S.4377, an example still flying today:

 

 

[Archie]

Mirrors for everyone! Certainly be useful for VR.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Weren't these useless in actual combat situations?

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Weren't these useless in actual combat situations?

 

I'd like to have them regardless, if only to create a false sense of security for the enemies I'm stalking from below.

[Trooper117]

If there is clear evidence that they were used, then there should be the option to include them as a modification.

I said the same thing about aircraft types in WWII as well... yet people will get their knickers in a twist about stuff like this, and as usual it's the MP crowd who see these things as some kind of threat to 'balance'...

[76SQN-FatherTed]

25 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

If there is clear evidence that they were used, then there should be the option to include them as a modification.

I said the same thing about aircraft types in WWII as well... yet people will get their knickers in a twist about stuff like this, and as usual it's the MP crowd who see these things as some kind of threat to 'balance'...

Seeing as we're talking about a WW1 combat flight simulator here, maybe that should read MP "handful" or "half-dozen". 

[Trooper117]

Just a generic term... I could have used crowd or mob

[HiIIBiIIy]

12 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Weren't these useless in actual combat situations?

Yes, they were completely useless in combat, that's why they still put them on combat aircraft today.

[Dutch2]

Rear mirrors great and then disable mirrors when using VR, because in VR you can not get a high FPS. I hope 1c put in the effort in making VR in BoX more efficient first. Maybe after that the mirrors. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Let's hope we don't get any mirrors, there's really no need.

[THERION]

I think rear mirrors are quite overrated in this sim. Don't get me wrong, they are well done and look great.

 

But in combat situations I prefer to check my six in having a quick glimpse instead of starring at the rear

mirror and having to move my head until I have the correct view/angle of sight to see what's on my six and

to finally realise that there's already someone shooting at me.

 

Finally, only rear mirrors mounted outside of the cockpit are somewhat helpful. If I use the rear mirror for the

LA-5FN 2 then my front view is considerably obstructed and that said, in this bird a total waste because the

rear cockpit view is fantastic for not to say the best (+ YAK-1B 127).

 

7 hours ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

Yes, they were completely useless in combat, that's why they still put them on combat aircraft today.

 

You're right, mate, but don't compare it with WWII planes. Modern planes have usually three of them and they

can be folded back. Quite different approach to me I think.

Edited February 14, 2019 by -IRRE-Therion

[Trooper117]

It doesn't matter if they have one mirror, three mirrors or ten mirrors!

At the end of the day, they were put on aircraft for a reason... not to make gaming easier or to affect 'balance'. They were there to help pilots stay alive.

 

It really is very simple, if they do introduce mirrors, if you think they are a waste of time, don't use the bloody things!

[HiIIBiIIy]

2 hours ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

I think rear mirrors are quite overrated in this sim. Don't get me wrong, they are well done and look great.

 

But in combat situations I prefer to check my six in having a quick glimpse instead of starring at the rear

mirror and having to move my head until I have the correct view/angle of sight to see what's on my six and

to finally realise that there's already someone shooting at me.

 

Finally, only rear mirrors mounted outside of the cockpit are somewhat helpful. If I use the rear mirror for the

LA-5FN 2 then my front view is considerably obstructed and that said, in this bird a total waste because the

rear cockpit view is fantastic for not to say the best (+ YAK-1B 127).

 

 

You're right, mate, but don't compare it with WWII planes. Modern planes have usually three of them and they

can be folded back. Quite different approach to me I think.

I think we,(FC sub forum) are talking ww1 planes here, so please keep the ww2 stuff out.

[Rothary]

I've found the mirror atleast on the P-39 quite useful at times. In VR it's really not that hard moving your head around to scan your rear with your peripheral vision on the mirror while you simultaneously focus on what's ahead of you. Having a mirror obviously doesn't mean you're only allowed to check your six through the mirror, absolutely nothing stops you from just turning around to have a better look, like you'd normally do. All it adds is the ability to see atleast a part of your rear even when not actually straining your neck trying to look behind you, which honestly is quite a chore in VR. It has only been a bonus in my experience and I don't see why they shouldn't be included in FC too.

[SP1969]

 

 

RFC roundel, Check.

Open cockpit, Check.

Some additional rearward vision enhancements, Check.

 

I rest my case.

 

Although....field Mods.....

Edited February 14, 2019 by SP1969

[THERION]

44 minutes ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

I think we,(FC sub forum) are talking ww1 planes here, so please keep the ww2 stuff out.

 

Ouch! Sorry man, didn't see we're in FC stuff here - I apologize.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Can speed of movement not be adjusted in VR, as in head tracking ?

[LukeFF]

7 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Let's hope we don't get any mirrors, there's really no need.

 

And why do you say that?

[Rothary]

6 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Can speed of movement not be adjusted in VR, as in head tracking ?

VR head tracking is always absolute 1:1 more or less down to the last millimeter. VR is literally just that, virtual reality. It's like wearing goggles through which you can see a whole new (virtual) world, in IL2's case you're sitting in the cramped life-size 3D cockpit of a life-size 3D aircraft.

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

13 hours ago, Rothary said:

All it adds is the ability to see atleast a part of your rear even when not actually straining your neck trying to look behind you,

 

I think he may be on to something.  As in ... probably of no use what'soever in a dogfight.  All to be hoped for is perhaps getting a glimpse of someone level on my six while I'm on autopilot cruising along or otherwise not paying attention.. Except that I've usually been killed by getting bounced ....which by definition isn't ideally co-alt behind me....

 

You too SP1969! Thanks for showing me that I can possibly have both style AND functionality at the same time. Not sure what all that chrome will do to my weight to lift ratios and so on though!  May only be able to fly stealthily on overcast days too!  Drat!

 

Hmmmm......style or functionality....style or functionality.....not so functional....I'm perhaps leaning more  towards style now....

 

 

[Arfsix]

14 hours ago, SP1969 said:

 

 

RFC roundel, Check.

Open cockpit, Check.

Some additional rearward vision enhancements, Check.

 

I rest my case.

 

Although....field Mods.....

 

     I must admit that I have been trying to determine what type of motorcycle is in the picture. Although I do not consider myself as a biker gang type, I have owned several bikes over the years. The helmet on the floorboard, I mistook for a fuel tank.

     Obviously, it's what I would call a scooter and all the mirrors are used to try and avoid being run down by the irate motorists trying to pass the slow moving vehicle!  ?

[THERION]

2 hours ago, Arfsix said:

 

     I must admit that I have been trying to determine what type of motorcycle is in the picture. Although I do not consider myself as a biker gang type, I have owned several bikes over the years. The helmet on the floorboard, I mistook for a fuel tank.

     Obviously, it's what I would call a scooter and all the mirrors are used to try and avoid being run down by the irate motorists trying to pass the slow moving vehicle!  ?

 

If I remember correctly, these scooters were very popular in the 50/60s in Great Britain and some were teamed-up as a gang - known as the "Moped lads"? Not sure.

[FurphyForum]

I'm surprised the Mods Lambretta is still standing, as there is no DM stomp mark on it from an Oi boy!  ?

[Zooropa_Fly]

21 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

And why do you say that?

 

I guess after 6 years or so flying WW1 a mirror would look a bit daft.

If it was something that was just dabbled with near the end of the war, I don't think there's any compulsion to include it in the game. I'm sure many things were dabbled with but they can't all be replicated.

But if we get them we get them.

 

I don't tend to use them in WW2, but my experience there is limited so I maybe haven't learned to use them yet.

In WW1 they'd just get in the way somehow, and if it's a strain checking 6 with VR, maybe that's just a consequence of using VR.

Although I'm surprised you can't adjust movement speed..

[HiIIBiIIy]

I think there's enough evidence that mirrors was used in early war through late to include them as a field mod like the Camel's large wing cutout.  

[Cynic_Al]

17 hours ago, Arfsix said:

 

     I must admit that I have been trying to determine what type of motorcycle is in the picture.  ?

 

It's a 1962 Innocenti Lambretta 125, a technically inferior competitor of the Vespa by the former aircraft manufacturer Piaggio.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Cynic_Al

[Rothary]

6 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

if it's a strain checking 6 with VR, maybe that's just a consequence of using VR.

Although I'm surprised you can't adjust movement speed..

 

 

I took this short and crap quality video with my phone to further demonstrate what VR means in practice and why there is no such thing as "movement speed" to adjust in the first place in VR. I used the Spitfire in the demonstration to also briefly demonstrate how mirrors work in VR, as in you can actually adjust the area and direction you see through the mirror by simply moving your head, which you can also do to look past the mirror if you want to focus on something behind it, meaning that the mirror isn't even effectively blocking your view. This of course still doesn't remove the need to actually turn around to take a look at your rear yourself, but then again it's not supposed to.

 

But as the video demonstrates, VR is not supposed to be a mere head tracking system. Instead VR turns the game into a literal life-size 3D virtual reality around the player. If the VR view didnt match your real life position exactly 1:1, it would mean you'd see the entire (virtual) world shift, rather than your view inside that world. In VR the world is always fixed relative to the very room the player is sitting in in real life. This means that you can for example walk around in the VR world by walking around in your own room in real life, or in the case of IL-2 (if the settings dont restrict VR view outside cockpit), you can actually climb out of the plane cockpit to stand on the aircraft wing by simply getting up from your real life chair to stand next to it in your real life room.

 

Checking your 6 in VR is the exact same concept as checking your 6 while sitting in an actual plane in real life. Hope this video clears some misconceptions about VR

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Rothary

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

If it was something that was just dabbled with near the end of the war, I don't think there's any compulsion to include it in the game. I'm sure many things were dabbled with but they can't all be replicated.

 

The pictures posted here plainly show they weren't tacked on near the war's end. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by LukeFF