Havoc A-20G and A-20H variants

[Hartsblade]

The Soviet Union received 1,606 A-20G's, nearly half of the 2,850 total A-20G's built during the war. The A-20H, is basically the G with an upgraded engine.

 

I would like to suggest the addition of the A-20G variant, with modifications to include the engine upgrade of the H and a torpedo modification.

[sevenless]

10 hours ago, Hartsblade said:

The Soviet Union received 1,606 A-20G's, nearly half of the 2,850 total A-20G's built during the war. The A-20H, is basically the G with an upgraded engine.

 

I would like to suggest the addition of the A-20G variant, with modifications to include the engine upgrade of the H and a torpedo modification.

 

If it can be used on Eastfront, Westfront and Pacific, that would make a lot of sense.

[CountZero]

found some nice info here for soviet a-20g

 

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/mn/b20_00.shtml

https://vvsairwar.com/2018/01/09/the-douglas-a-20-havoc-boston-in-soviet-service/

 

[=27=Davesteu]

 

[Poochnboo]

When I think of an A-20 Havoc, it's the solid nosed, turret gunned G model that comes to mind. That's the real A-20 to me. I'd like to see it as an option in the A-20 menu when Bodenplatte is released. Without it, the USAAF have no bombers, there, really. You can use the one we have, of course, but it's not historically correct. Ninth Air Force units were not using the glass nosed Havocs. We'll have the Mitchell as AI, but that wasn't used by USAAF units in Northern Europe, either. I wouldn't even care if they just gave it the same performance as the present A-20 and simply reworked the external model. I wouldn't think that would be hard to do. 

[Retnek]

3 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

found some nice info here for soviet a-20g

 

ttps://vvsairwar.com/2018/01/09/the-douglas-a-20-havoc-boston-in-soviet-service/

 

From the source cited above:

"... The first Soviet unit to receive the new gunship was the 244th BAD, with the 861st BAP being the first to use the G in the ground attack role. Unfortunately, the G Havocs proved to be too vulnerable to the heavy German anti-aircraft fire that was nearly ubiquitous when flying at low altitudes, and by November of 1943, the 861st had withdrawn their A-20Gs from ground attack operations due to heavy losses. Instead, Soviet forces typically used the heavily-armored Iyushin Il-2 Sturmovik for ground attack purposes. Consequently, a significant number of the Soviet G Havocs were modified, either in the field or at Factory No. 81 in Moscow, to resemble earlier B and C variants, with a glazed nose and bombardier position (most of the forward-firing guns were, of course, removed). Several other strategies were employed to install a bombardier position elsewhere in the A-20G, including behind the bomb bay and behind the pilot, both of which allowed for the retention of the forward-firing armament, but in the vast majority of cases, the nose was simply replaced. ..."

 

That's not an argument not to build the late A-20-models, but if we try to stay with history it won't change that much at the Eastern Front. I still would enjoy the additional power and even more the twin-turret on it's back - a Pe2 on the double shredding away the 109s

[Royal_Flight]

The A-20G fits in Bodenplatte and any future Pacific (assuming it ever happens) or Mediterranean theatre.

If it fits in Kuban as well, then it’s definitely versatile enough to be worth considering.

 

Adding torpedos would be good as well, even just to the current A-20B. I think the ship has definitely sailed on the ‘Kuban as a testbed for the Pacific’ idea, but the naval side could still be fleshed out for its own sake.

And if the Pacific does ever end up happening after all then it’ll be useful for that too. 

[Dutchvdm]

8 hours ago, Royal_Flight said:

The A-20G fits in Bodenplatte and any future Pacific (assuming it ever happens) or Mediterranean theatre.

If it fits in Kuban as well, then it’s definitely versatile enough to be worth considering.

 

Adding torpedos would be good as well, even just to the current A-20B. I think the ship has definitely sailed on the ‘Kuban as a testbed for the Pacific’ idea, but the naval side could still be fleshed out for its own sake.

And if the Pacific does ever end up happening after all then it’ll be useful for that too. 

 

I think it should fit the Kuban timelime somewhat.

 

"Given the G’s forward firepower, the VVS utilized the new variant as a ground attack aircraft as opposed to the light bomber role given to the B and C models. The first Soviet unit to receive the new gunship was the 244th BAD, with the 861st BAP being the first to use the G in the ground attack role. Unfortunately, the G Havocs proved to be too vulnerable to the heavy German anti-aircraft fire that was nearly ubiquitous when flying at low altitudes, and by November of 1943, the 861st had withdrawn their A-20Gs from ground attack operations due to heavy losses. Instead, Soviet forces typically used the heavily-armored Iyushin Il-2 Sturmovik for ground attack purposes. Consequently, a significant number of the Soviet G Havocs were modified, either in the field or at Factory No. 81 in Moscow, to resemble earlier B and C variants, with a glazed nose and bombardier position (most of the forward-firing guns were, of course, removed)."

 

"but it wasn’t until early 1943 that a systematic program was put in place to convert VMF Bostons into torpedo bombers. By this time, deliveries of A-20Gs had supplanted those of the B and C models, and the Zhuchoks, with their self-sealing fuel tanks and heavier armor, were the natural choice to undergo modification for torpedo bombing purposes."

 

"The first modified A-20G was sent to the Baltic Sea Fleet’s 1st Guards Mine-Torpedo Regiment in March of 1943, with deliveries continuing to regiments of the Black Sea and Northern Fleets shortly thereafter. "

 

Grt M

[Royal_Flight]

Interesting. Makes it sound almost like the A-20G (maybe with moddable glazed nose) would have been a better choice for Kuban in the first place.

[Dutchvdm]

33 minutes ago, Royal_Flight said:

Interesting. Makes it sound almost like the A-20G (maybe with moddable glazed nose) would have been a better choice for Kuban in the first place.

 

Purely looking at the Kuban timeline and it's implementation as bomber the B and C models where the most logical choice. Here is the entire article if you're interested. 

 

https://vvsairwar.com/2018/01/09/the-douglas-a-20-havoc-boston-in-soviet-service/

 

Grt M

 

PS: I would still like them to make the G model. And add the dorsal turret to the B model. The default .50 is nearly useless. 

 

"However, by the end of 1942, Soviet airmen did have several complaints about the A-20B/C, specifically its defensive armament. The early A-20’s defensive armament consisted of two flexible 7.7 mm (.30 caliber) Browning machine guns mounted dorsally, and an addition single flexible Browning in the ventral position, armament that was deemed too weak by Soviet aircrews. Already in the early fall of 1942, Soviet engineers experimented with installing domestically-built UTK-1 turrets to increase the dorsal turret’s fire power. Pleased with the results, Deputy Air Force Commander Colonel-General A.V. Vorozheykin ordered the modification to be carried out on 54 aircraft, which were then sent to the 221st Division at Stalingrad. The alteration increased the aircraft’s weight and drag, leading to an overall loss of speed by 6-10 km/h. Nevertheless, Soviet aircrews were pleased with the modifications, and a total of 830 of the Soviet Union’s Havocs would be modified in such a manner over the course of the war."

[cardboard_killer]

I know that I'm resurrecting an old thread, but I've been thinking a lot about light bombers that were used as strafers with solid noses and lots of mg/cannon. I know the mossy will be out in BoN, but I'd love to see the A-20G, too.

[Gambit21]

We need the G.

 

 

 

[ACG_PanzerVI]

Hey, I have to give this a bump.  The G model was used by both the US in 44 / 45 and by the Soviets from 43 on.  The fact that the VVS didn't appreciate the forward firing armament is no reason not to have it in the sim.  I cannot confirm, but suspect that the R-2600-23 engine of the G was more powerful than the R-2600-11 of the B model. The twin .50 Cal turret on the dorsal and single .50 ventral should make the G more competitive and survivable on the later war servers, whether USAAC or VVS.  There is a definite need for a more capable attack aircraft that is NOT a fighter bomber in the later scenarios and can survive/compete against the 43-45 meta.  We are getting some of this with Normandy, but it would seem that adding the mod to make the G would be MUCH easier than a new plane from scratch.  C'mon Jason, how bout some love here?  Wouldn't YOU like to run a medium bomber with all that forward firing armament?   I just think it would make some of the existing MP servers more balanced.

[-332FG-Stravinsky]

On 1/15/2020 at 6:36 PM, cardboard_killer said:

I know that I'm resurrecting an old thread, but I've been thinking a lot about light bombers that were used as strafers with solid noses and lots of mg/cannon. I know the mossy will be out in BoN, but I'd love to see the A-20G, too.

 

I say we definitely need to resurrect this old thread again. I like what they did with the Hurricane variants and I'd like to see it more! Get rid of that glass nose and give me more MGs!

[Avimimus]

Well, there are really three major variants we are talking about:

- Early lend lease A-20G with 4x20mm Hispano but otherwise very similar to what we have

- American A-20G with 6x0.50 and a widened fuselage to incorporate the improved dorsal turret

- British A-20 which is similar to what we have but with British bombs (and probable 4x0.303 rather than 2x0.50)

 

...so it would be a substantial package (not just a field mod, but several new aircraft). Correct?

[MeoW.Scharfi]

A-20G would be ❤️

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

...so it would be a substantial package (not just a field mod, but several new aircraft). Correct?

 

They would absolutely be new aircraft, yes.

[gimpy117]

don't forget the soviets also modified some A20's with a domestic turret! 

[-332FG-Stravinsky]

On 2/6/2021 at 9:44 AM, Avimimus said:

Well, there are really three major variants we are talking about:

- Early lend lease A-20G with 4x20mm Hispano but otherwise very similar to what we have

- American A-20G with 6x0.50 and a widened fuselage to incorporate the improved dorsal turret

- British A-20 which is similar to what we have but with British bombs (and probable 4x0.303 rather than 2x0.50)

 

...so it would be a substantial package (not just a field mod, but several new aircraft). Correct?

Multiple variants yes. I guess the widened fuselage would be the one that takes longer to implement.

 

I also think that just one of them would satisfy the people who reacted on this thread since 2019.

[sevenless]

A20-G should be brought into the game. Yes, no doubt about that.

 

 

[Photo] American A-20 Havoc bombers attacking railways behind German lines in Domfront, Orne, France, Jun 1944 | World War II Database (ww2db.com)

 

VVS A-20G Havoc - Suggestions - IL-2 Sturmovik Forum

[migmadmarine]

Would gladly buy more A-20 variants if they were made.