Pedals vs Twist Stick (taildragger ground looping)

[Japsai]

Can anyone offer advice on whether pedals (if used properly) are likely to help give better rudder control, compared with a twist stick.  Especially for controlling a taildragger on the ground and ESPECIALLY when landing

 

I am learning with a Spitfire Mk IX and have managed to get the hang of taxiing, take-offs, landing approach and flare/touchdown, but I just cant stop the bugger from ground looping when slowing down after touchdown, no matter how quickly & carefully I react with rudders and how lightly I touch/stab the brakes

 

I am using a cheap Thrustmaster HOTAS Flight Stick X with the joystick twist axis for rudder control.  Any thoughts on whether a set of pedals would help me with more precise and proactive use of rudder?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Yes, pedals will improve rudder control. Pedals offer better precision, but more importantly, they allow you to completely separate rudder inputs from stick inputs.

 

However, don’t expect an immediate solution to all ground handling quirks. Some aircraft will still have characteristics that you’ll need to learn, but pedals will make the process much easier.

[sniperton]

1 hour ago, biffa66 said:

I am using a cheap Thrustmaster HOTAS Flight Stick X with the joystick twist axis for rudder control.  Any thoughts on whether a set of pedals would help me with more precise and proactive use of rudder?

Yes.

I've used a TM X for years, and I must say almost anything is better than that.

Most joysticks/pedals have a 6 to 8% of deadband towards the centre, while the TM X has 18%. That's a huge deadband, meaning that you're invited to over-react all the time.

Apart from that, using a dedicated rudder is more intuitive and closer to RL. Could be strange for the first time, but it's definitely better.

[Japsai]

Thanks to both of you.  Very helpful

Edited January 9, 2019 by biffa66

[Aap]

That is a two-folded question.

About ground looping, the technique is more important than which control device you have. I don't have a Spit in this game, but for example for Mig 3 you have (or at least had to during previous patches) "dance on the pedals" to avoid looping. So, small corrections all the time with rudder left-right. Also, in CloD (don't know if it is the same in BoX) it was useful to have a bit of throttle when slowing down, so propeller would still move air over your control surfaces, but you could still stop your plane with brakes.

 

What comes to pedals vs stick, the main "benefit" of the pedals is the more authentic feel when flying, because real planes also had pedals. From game "ability" point of view I don't think there are big differences. Twist-stick could even have some benefits, because twisting your fist is physically definitely faster than moving your legs. Pedals have the benefit of separating rudder control from stick, as mentioned before, so you do not unintentionally use other controls than you want to. On top of that, one very capable pilot in my squad just uses buttons to control rudder and is very efficient with that approach, too.

[sniperton]

59 minutes ago, II./JG77_Kemp said:

Pedals have the benefit of separating rudder control from stick, as mentioned before, so you do not unintentionally use other controls than you want to.

@biffa66: I think this is the most important benefit. Unintentional use of rudder (which is hardly avoidable when using a twist stick) results in missed bombs and rockets and also brings you trouble when landing. To avoid ground looping,

(1) practice first with zero wind (or with no crosswind);

(2) make sure you're correctly lined up with the runway; on final, your plane has to fly straight onto the runway without any rudder input to secure that the nose points to where you're travelling;

(3) after touchdown, don't fully idle the engine, leave some 20% throttle to maintain airflow;

(4) don't apply brakes until slowed down to 20-30 kph; instead, apply hard left rudder, hard right rudder ("dance on the pedals") in approx. 1 second intervals.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

wish mine had 6-8% deadzone..
Thrustmaster TFRP's have no deadzone without setting one.
 

[Guest deleted@134347]

try to feel it out - that's ultimate answer. 

 

- While in flight the rudder response is very quick, almost instantaneous.

- while taxiing or moving very slow the rudder response is delayed. Hence, you need to preempt the over-rudder by applying the opposite rudder much much quicker. I.e:

 

a) you've landed and while your slowing down the rudder is still pretty responsive

b) you've slowed down to 10-20kmh and you start drifting to the right:

   - apply left rudder

   - as soon as you start yawing left immediately apply right rudder to preempt over ruddering to the left.

   - the amount of rudder is dependent on each aircraft.

 

c) it helps to look at an object in the sky while performing rudder correction, i.e. pick a cloud, or learn these techniques in cloudy scenes. Once you get the feel for it you won't need the 'cloud', the surround ground objects would be enough.

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by moosya

[Dagwoodyt]

6 hours ago, sniperton said:

@biffa66: I think this is the most important benefit. Unintentional use of rudder (which is hardly avoidable when using a twist stick) results in missed bombs and rockets and also brings you trouble when landing. To avoid ground looping,

(1) practice first with zero wind (or with no crosswind);

(2) make sure you're correctly lined up with the runway; on final, your plane has to fly straight onto the runway without any rudder input to secure that the nose points to where you're travelling;

(3) after touchdown, don't fully idle the engine, leave some 20% throttle to maintain airflow;

(4) don't apply brakes until slowed down to 20-30 kph; instead, apply hard left rudder, hard right rudder ("dance on the pedals") in approx. 1 second intervals.

Here is the problem: in the Spit gear placement means that gross rudder inputs can unload a tire patch. Once that happens your landing is doomed because then any brake input will cause the loaded tire to make the aircraft spin on loaded tire's axis. It is not application of brakes that is the problem but rather application of brakes where there is substantial difference in tire loading. Higher tier rudder pedals pay for themselves here. Learning to fly at lower edge of flight envelope is essential. Control near stall requires practice. The faster you land the more things can go wrong before you can react. Also, what works for one pilot may not work for another. You can never know how one pilot's opinion is affected by control setup. Assume that your mileage WILL vary. Finally, knowing that you have excellent quality controllers makes it easier to accept your responsibility to learn how a given aircraft wants to be flown/landed.

[Warpig]

I used twist rudder for years. It was a big mistake to think that they were enough. Invest in some pedals, you won't regret it. You'll wonder how you ever could deal with a twist rudder in the first place.

[Remontti]

I got rid off the notorious looping when landing russian planes when I changed from Saitek combat rudder pedals to Crosswind MFG pedals. At least I believe this is the reason. Many have said that good pedals make a big difference.