No engine landing protocols. best to come in fast?

[il2crashesnfails]

I often find myself in a fighter gliding to a Airstrip. I find it difficult to know when to start slowing down.  So, I either come in way too hot and over run the airstrip. Or I lower landing gear too early and run out of energy to get to the airstrip.

 

Below is probably the best I have ever done and I still came up short ?

Any tips on what I did wrong and what you do would be of great help

 

 

[AndyJWest]

 

1: 'Coming in too fast' isn't going to help. You ideally want to set up a stable approach a little higher than the normal engine-on approach speed. First, you have to ensure you can reach a runway, and for that you may need to fly faster, flaps up, at around the aircraft's (engine on) best climb speed. This should give the best glide angle. As you get nearer, you can slow down, for a safer approach.

2: If you can adjust the flaps angle, don't put them full down at this point. Half way will give you a better glide angle, and leave room for adjustment. But before you lower them at all, consider whether they may be damaged. Gliding with only one flap is unlikely to be elegant, if it is possible at all. 

3: If the flaps are all-or-nothing, and you are sure they aren't damaged, you can lower them when you are sure to reach the runway, or if you need to belly land.  Don't lower the landing gear until you are really certain you can reach the runway. And expect the extra drag to steepen your approach.

3: If you don't need the canopy open for visibility, consider keeping it closed until the extra drag isn't an issue.

4: If you are still too high, weave. If that isn't enough, push the nose down slightly, and sideslip. 

5: You are likely to do less damage landing long than landing short. Running off the end of the runway at 50 Km/h may not look elegant, but it is safer than planting your wheels in the rough at 150 km/h. And you can always groundloop to slow down. You quite likely will anyway. If you have messed up, and don't look like reaching the runway, make a decision to belly land, rather than trying to stretch it out.

 

You weren't far off getting it right in the video. I suspect that if you'd kept the wheels up longer, you might have made it. Personally though, I'd have gone for the nearer airfield, and circled/weaved/sideslipped to lose height while keeping it well in range.

 

Here's a deadstick landing of mine from years ago. I could probably do better now, but it shows the technique. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by AndyJWest

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

You can come in a little hot and once the landing is assured you can slip to bleed speed rapidly and get into your landing configuration. I do it for deadsticks and occasionally when I come in too hot with the engine running. Works great for 190’s but a little less effective with those slippery 109’s. Bleeding speed from a 109 takes almost full rudder and opposite aileron. It’s important to know your approach and flare speeds for your particular airframe as well.

Edited January 5, 2019 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

The faster you go, the greater the descent rate.  Find out what the best l/d (slowest rate of descent for fastest forward speed) for what you are flying.  The rest of the above advice is also good.

[Requiem]

Practicing power off approaches to landing will help you with "engine out" landings as you develop a sense of how far your plane is going to be gliding (ie - where your aiming point is going to be) based on your current airspeed. Do not use flaps until you're assured of making the runway or if you think you are too high (ie - your aiming point looks to be too far down the runway). The reason why you fell short of the runway is because you used flaps too early. Extending flaps will increase overall drag, so what you will notice is that as you start deploying them your touchdown point will actually start moving towards you (meaning you are now gliding a shorter distance). So the options if you're too high are either to use flaps, perform S turns so you're flying a longer distance overall to lose that excess altitude, sideslip, or a combination of all three.

 

If you're too low then just maintain your best glide speed and don't attempt to stretch a glide out at a slower airspeed as that will actually reduce how far you will glide.

 

A neat trick in low wing airplanes is extending flaps while in ground effect to extend your gliding distance in a pinch, as you get the benefits of the increased lift without the induced drag you normally get outside of ground effect.

[ZachariasX]

17 hours ago, il2crashesnfails said:

I often find myself in a fighter gliding to a Airstrip. I find it difficult to know when to start slowing down. 

Ok. At this point you are in a glider. This might sound like semantics, but flying without the „cheat“ in front requires some adjustment in technique for things to turn out well. In the example you gave, I assume you are coming from sufficient altitude.

 

The first thing you have to know is best glide speed of your aircraft. It should give you problem getting to that and maintain it correctly trimmed in clean as well as in all down configuration.

 

1) Upon silence in the cockpit, you check your altimeter. Whatever happens from now on, you have landed already when you teach 300 m above ground at the very lowest, depending on aircraft. Set your prop to fully coarse to ease drag. Pull up and gain altitude for any excessive speed. From now on, in is only best glide speed. You are not too fast anymore now.

 

2) Any altitude in excess of 300 meters above ground will give you further distance to pick your arrival zone. Do not count for more than 5 meters range for every meter altitude above 300 m AGL.

 

3) Lets say, you are lucky, at high altitude and there are more friendly patches below you than just forrest, sea, high tension wires or a city. You make sure you‘ll know the direction of the wind while gliding to your arrival zone.

 

4) If you arrived at your landing zone, the 300+ m AGL will allow you to fly a normal pattern. Without engine, this is even more crucial than with engine, as it is the only way to give you a good feel of your sink rate. You chose now the site of your arrival as well the direction from where you will do so. You can deploy gear flaps now, but flaps better not all the way if possible. You do that while flying your downwind leg, making sure you maintain glide speed. In bumpy condition or if it requires maneuvering, add some 10% airspeed, depending on aircraft.

 

5) During your steady downwind leg, you will constantly check your altitude by cueing at your chosen point of arrival/runway. You will turn at the very latest at 150 m AGL, but better a bit higher, as you will have wind shortening your final approach plus the turn into final will bleed altitude as well, the tighter you turn, the more it does so.

 

6) If you made everything right, you arrived precisely where planned, it just didn‘t happen yet. Just let it go steady until you flare it out as normal. You absolutely don‘t need an engine to properly land an aircraft. At least a good one. For making a pin point landing, you can use sideslip and setting your prop more to fine to steepen your approach. The latter is not good for quick adjustments, it will be an adjustment of your whole glide path. Going in like that will give you the option to correct your glide both for extending it or shortening it.

 

 In case of problem:

 

-You are below 300 m AGL after point 1): Your accident is gonna happen almost right in front and below you. I recommend going for the lesser in front of you than for the better behind you. You can drag the inevitable out a bit by setting prop to coarse and remaining at best glide, but that‘s it.

 

-At 300 m AGL, you have the option of putting your aircraft down in a proper way almost directly below you or have some sort of accident anywhere 1 to 1.5 km from your position.

 

-You are too high: youst keep circling at glide speed. They all come down eventually.

 

In any case, at such altitude, you commenced the final approach right away, meaning you are either gear up or down and remain so for the rest of the approach. Prop pitch, flaps and sideslip are your tools for a steady approach. A good approach is steady, you‘re not constantly correcting. You can see from 1 km where you will settle down. You will establish a stable glide, maintaining speed to arrive there. Else you will come in short.

 

The whole thing takes a bit of practise and it is only difficult because it is seldom done. In the sim, not fearing for your life, you will quickly learn in case of excessive altitude to dive for the starting point of your final and enter there with a high g pull to bleed the speed. On the last turn nearing glide speed, you deploy flaps and gear and just glide in for landing.

 

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

I say just glide it in the best you can and forget the fancy stuff...  Once you have some experience with a particular aircraft, it isn't that tough to fly it by the seat of your pants, at near optimal glide speed, and just wing it, as required, without a lot of procedural or theoretical stuff.  If you get too wrapped up in all the rest, you've likely already lost several kilometers. 

Edited January 6, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[il2crashesnfails]

On 1/6/2019 at 6:13 PM, ZachariasX said:

1) Upon silence in the cockpit, you check your altimeter. Whatever happens from now on, you have landed already when you teach 300 m above ground at the very lowest, depending on aircraft. Set your prop to fully coarse to ease drag. Pull up and gain altitude for any excessive speed. From now on, in is only best glide speed. You are not too fast anymore now.

 

what do you mean set to fully coarse? do you mean feather it?

If so how do you feather it in a fighter. I try "ctrl f" but it doesn't say feathered like in the he-111

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, il2crashesnfails said:

what do you mean set to fully coarse? do you mean feather it?

If so how do you feather it in a fighter. I try "ctrl f" but it doesn't say feathered like in the he-111

 

Single engine aircraft often can‘t feather their prop, setting it all the way to „low rpm“ (giving you a „coarse“ angle of the blade) will help considerably to reduce drag.

 

[TWC_TWC_SLAG]

Something else: once you pick a place to land, don’t change it.  If you are too high, slip, skid, or s curve, etc.  Never turn away from where you intend to land, though.