Crew survivability in regards to HE-shells

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Since I've seen this issue in the DM prior and currently with 3.009, lemme get this out of the window since i don't expect quick iterations to come with the devs taking their deserved holiday break.

 

The issue is pretty much very tanky pilots with a lack of any "advanced" pilot DM like a chance to trigger a bleed upon being wounded and having AI gunner being not affected by anything but the boolean isAlive.

In previous patches in MP i saw a bunch of things like this happening and pretty much all HE shells vs pilots up to the 37mm really could use a tweak

 

20mm Shvak from a Lagg-3: resulted in an engine dead but pilot fine

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=50091&name=-IRRE-shnyzo

  

23mm to the melon, note the plane is in a config with removed headrest

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=34603&name==FEW=N3croo

38% dmg to the gunner http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/de/sortie/log/3695002/?tour=41

 

 

So i decided to take a look in SP so there should not be the argument of desync ping etc. Pure HE belts, only primary guns fired (other than the red baron with the K4 on the very end)

I basically came to the conclusion it is easier to kill engines with framentation than crew. Especially the larger calibers really do struggle at killing the crew with shells impacting 0.5-1m from crew not being lethal.

 

I tested the guns in following order

2x 20mm He from the FN

YJa 23mm from the LaGG-3 https://youtu.be/Y1bRXXYDCIw?t=277

Sh-37mm from the LaGG-3 https://youtu.be/Y1bRXXYDCIw?t=347

 

 

M4 37mm from the P-39 https://youtu.be/Y1bRXXYDCIw?t=417

 

Mk108 from the K-4 (all 110s had no headrest) https://youtu.be/Y1bRXXYDCIw?t=529

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by =FEW=N3croo
Fixed missing timestamp

[Talon_]

Really solid case here for this to be looked at IMO. Great work mate.

[unreasonable]

Couple of comments: first off good tests and post.

 

The game uses an RNG, (although we do not know exactly how) so you cannot expect a purely deterministic relationship between hit each hit placement and outcome, only a statistical one. So that means that ideally test results should be presented numerically even if only in fairly simple terms. 

 

Eg:   Number of hits causing crew death/injury as % of number of hits in a location expected to cause crew death/injury.

 

This also has the benefit that we can see your test results without having to watch all your videos - maybe watch one to see how you did the job, then take your word for it on the others. 

 

On the hit location: a hit a meter away from a crew member even with a 30mm or 37mm shell would not necessarily be lethal. Blast is fairly ineffective outside an enclosed space as appears to be the case in many of your test hits. Fragmentation should travel forwards and out from detonation: so a hit passing over the pilot's head and landing a meter in front of him could well send no splinters in his direction. (That is in RL - I am not sure if this modeled).  So if I were running this test I would want to take that into account in estimating my expected results. 

 

 

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

If you really wanna have the short and dirty of it check the mk108 and 37mm M4 canons:

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/Y1bRXXYDCIw?t=529

https://youtu.be/Y1bRXXYDCIw?t=417

 

Initial ones with the Shvak do actually kill the crew but only after ~5 impacts, most of the time dmg actually registers but its too low across the board.

 

Something like the M4 cannon with a 600g projectile should be absolutely lethal at 1m to an exposed pilot. 

As a reference to the M4 37mm an F1 grenade has a weight of 600g and a lethal fragmentation radius of 20m, now if we dont take soviet mininukes as a reference but sth like a 40mm grenade thos things are listed commonly with a 5m lethal radius. I do acknowledge there is cover by dural or fabric wood, even heavy winter clothing but a leather cap wont save you from a big one 1m behind your melon 

 

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

just gonna add this here https://imgur.com/a/OjVhIc2

 

This is the guy i hit.

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/de/sortie/log/3918336/?tour=43

 

 

 

[Quinte]

On 12/24/2018 at 2:55 AM, unreasonable said:

On the hit location: a hit a meter away from a crew member even with a 30mm or 37mm shell would not necessarily be lethal. Blast is fairly ineffective outside an enclosed space as appears to be the case in many of your test hits. 

 

Since I just found this thread and this has been bothering me for quite some time: every piece of information I can find on the internet gives a lethal blast radius between 2 and 6 meters for a 20mm HEI, in an open space.

 

I think it'd be fair to say that for all intents and purposes, in game, 2 meters would be really conservative (you don't actually need to be dead to be useless at flying your aircraft, unconscious or paralyzed or whatever is enough).

[=FEW=N3cRoo]

Crew hasnt been wounded here, My shells where pure HE belting and well ripped the wingroot in half.

It looks like the headrest still exists and triggers the shells just has no armor value for penetrating shells.

 

here's the sortie link

http://taw-server.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=59592&name==FEW=N3croo

[Velxra]

Well the damage model has been updated and refined since this first post. So "everything" will need to be tested again to affirm the problem. Also the pilot seems very robust from being damaged. Shells flying through the cockpit and unsurvival g forces that would kill someone in real life seem to not apply to our pilots. I believe this is mostly a game balance mechanic so players are not constantly insta killed and the "aircraft" is treated more as the person. Personally I would love to see the pilot die from hard crashes or bullets flying through the cockpit as that is realism. 

[LukeFF]

13 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

I believe this is mostly a game balance mechanic.

 

That's the farthest thing from the truth. 

[Velxra]

41 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

That's the farthest thing from the truth. 

 

Go ahead, state your case. 

[LukeFF]

15 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Go ahead, state your case. 

 

My case is that more than one 1CGS developer has stated repeatedly that nothing in the game is modeled with the intent of creating game balance. On the contrary, there are posts on the Russian forums stating they want to improve the pilot / crew damage modeling.

[Velxra]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

My case is that more than one 1CGS developer has stated repeatedly that nothing in the game is modeled with the intent of creating game balance. On the contrary, there are posts on the Russian forums stating they want to improve the pilot / crew damage modeling.

 

Well good, hopefully that means a better pilot survivability system will be put in place compared to what there is now.