Ground attack in Flying Circus (and also the 20lb cooper)?

[Avimimus]

I've been trying to use these. Initially I thought they had to be dropped from high altitude to allow them to spin forward (when we only had the Spad). I then thought that they had a fusing delay when using the Camel. But recently I seemed to manage to drop the bomb and have it go off under my Camel when on the runway... and it damaged the plane... but not seriously.

 

Is this historically accurate or am I doing something wrong or is this a mistake in the modelling? In Rise of Flight I suspected bombs were overmodelled - now I suspect the opposite.

 

Overall I've found ground attack in Flying Circus to be really lack-luster. I've tried shooting up the tires of vehicles and after four good runs they are still moving. That could partly be due to poor marksmanship, but it could also be due to have a damage model calibrated for WWII.

 

P.S. I had a mod for hand dropping individual PTABs one at a time from the U-2 in Il-2... with a fusing delay which required scoring nearly direct hits... so I'm not afraid of trying to be extremely accurate with extremely small bombs - but I want to know if a direct hit will do anything before I put in the effort! Also, if there is a fusing height issue!

[Muff_Huggar]

I asked about bombing when I first started FC when it came out. The popular wisdom seemed to be to do dive bombing and set the timer at 5 seconds. When I set the timer to less than 5 seconds, I got a lot of duds; five always seems to work.Without a bombsight (which I don't see modeled into the planes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombsight) I know I'd be lucky to hit the ground let alone a target.

[unreasonable]

I would be very surprised to see true dive bombing with the Camel, the wheel struts will get in the way.  I vaguely recall seeing instructions to dive at no more 30 degrees before release, but I cannot remember where I read that.

 

Ground attack in FC needs realistic WW1 targets, such as horse drawn artillery, horse drawn wagons and horses, like SYN_Vander's mods for RoF, only with animations.  Artillery positions are probably the best target with the current object set.  Are not most military vehicles' tyres solid or at least have a solid inner so that they can run when punctured? 

Edited December 15, 2018 by unreasonable

[JG1_loopy]

I dropped a bomb when still on the runway and no effect at all, when bombing artillery there was a small dust cloud, it did not look as if the bomb exploded.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Same here, I can't get those copper bombs to explode, even with the timer set to 5 second.

It used to work in Rise Of Flight but in Flying Circus I just see some dust of the bomb touching the ground but no explosion.

I was wondering if anyone has found a solution in the mean while.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[=IRFC=Gascan]

You need the 5 second fuse. Pretty sure there is also a minimum flight time. If you're diving, you need to drop a bit higher than if you drop while level. Try a quick mission with unlimited ammo and just practice dropping until you can reliably get it to explode, and get a feel for when you're too low and it won't explode.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

48 minutes ago, gascan said:

You need the 5 second fuse. Pretty sure there is also a minimum flight time. If you're diving, you need to drop a bit higher than if you drop while level. Try a quick mission with unlimited ammo and just practice dropping until you can reliably get it to explode, and get a feel for when you're too low and it won't explode.

Thanks for the tip, I'll try it out later this week when I have a day off.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Russkly]

...and I found the bomb aiming assist option in the game difficulty settings a real help in immproving my bombing.

 

And you'll need to bomb ground stuff - the MGs don't seem to be able to do damage to anything on the ground...

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

MG works, especially on trench guns and arty, but you have to hit the guns.  I'm told it also works on tanks, but I've not had any luck with that.

[Russkly]

34 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

MG works, especially on trench guns and arty, but you have to hit the guns.  I'm told it also works on tanks, but I've not had any luck with that.

 

Fair points.

 

I haven't tried to hit the Arty with MGs, I must admit, and I don't think I could anyway.

 

But trucks seem to be immune to MG fire, which is a little odd.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Trucks can be destroyed with MG as well.  I've not seen them explode though.  Only smoke from engine..Then notification that truck destroyed.   Maybe you have to hit the engine?  Don't know tbh.

11 minutes ago, Russkly said:

 

Fair points.

 

I haven't tried to hit the Arty with MGs, I must admit, and I don't think I could anyway.

 

But trucks seem to be immune to MG fire, which is a little odd.

It's hard to even see then, much less hit them.  But like all things, get easier with practice.   The guns do explode thoughwhen you hit them.  Rewarding boom.  Heheh.

Edited May 9, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[Russkly]

7 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

Trucks can be destroyed with MG as well.  I've not seen them explode though.  Only smoke from engine..Then notification that truck destroyed.   Maybe you have to hit the engine?  Don't know tbh.

It's hard to even see then, much less hit them.  But like all things, get easier with practice.

 

I'd love to know where the hit boxes on trucks and arty are!

 

Clearly I haven't found them yet...

[RNAS10_Oliver]

The vehicles such as trucks used to explode when destroyed, but that changed around the time that Tank Crew was released. So that now they get destroyed through destroying specific parts of the vehicle and just hitting them anywhere is not going to do the job. So no not immune but can sometimes take take a fair bit of ammunition and can sometimes not be obvious that it's destroyed. Best thing to look out for is either smoke from engine, the crew running away, no longer firing it's armament (in the case of tanks) or achieving another "kill" on the stats shortly after.

 

Quote

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/168-developer-diary/?do=findComment&comment=690091

 

For instance, in the coming update, you'll experience the higher fidelity damage modeling for AI controllable ground objects such as trucks and tanks. Before, there was no difference where you hit a truck, but in the new system, each 'simple' vehicle has many types of simulated parts - wheels or trucks, engine, ammo rack, fuel tanks, driver, turret, main gun. By hitting a simple AI vehicle at these parts you can immobilize it or render it inoperable by damaging a turret or main gun if any. Statistics system will consider it destroyed if its ammo, explosive cargo or fuel tanks detonated or its crew was killed or its engine was destroyed or its suspension has been rendered inoperable (at least two wheels or tracks damaged).

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by RNAS10_Oliver

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

7 minutes ago, Russkly said:

 

I'd love to know where the hit boxes on trucks and arty are!

 

Clearly I haven't found them yet...

On the Arty, you have hit the actual gun.   Looks like a cannon..very small.  There is a gunner, who runs away when you start getting some close hits.

It helps to zoom in a lot when you're trying to find the actual gun btw.

Edited May 9, 2022 by RNAS10_Mitchell

[jollyjack]

7 hours ago, FlyingShark said:

Same here, I can't get those copper bombs to explode, even with the timer set to 5 second.

It used to work in Rise Of Flight but in Flying Circus I just see some dust of the bomb touching the ground but no explosion.

I was wondering if anyone has found a solution in the mean while. Have a nice day.

 

So it's time for a test of WW1 IL2 bombs. Was experimenting with a Bristol a while ago, and found that you need some altitude for them to work.

Maybe due perfect modeling by the devs; the fuse's propeller needs enough revs to wind itself up?

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

7 minutes ago, RNAS10_Mitchell said:

On the Arty, you have hit the actual gun.   Looks like a cannon..very small.  There is a gunner, who runs away when h start getting some close hits.

It helps to zoom in a lot when you're trying to find the actual gun btw.

It helps to zoom in a lot when you're trying to find the actual gun btw.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

I'm flying the SPAD 13 lately with full fuel, balloon guns, and cooper bombs with contact fuses.

 

The guns work fine on planes, trucks, and crew-served weapon emplacements; but I've got to get so close I can see the target clearly in VR and then hit the gun or gunner.  Less than that and I'm not having an effect.  

 

Cooper eggs have provided a few surprises.  I nailed a bridge with two; nice grey HE explosions but no visible damage.

 

So then I overflew a Gotha by about ten feet and bombed it in mid-air.  Two Coopers hit the left top wing and exploded in a grey puff of smoke; but the wing wasn't damaged and the GV flew-on unscathed.

 

I've basically been a fighter pilot; not big into ground attack.  But lately I've been trying a little of whatever presents itself at the moment and that includes bombing with the SPAD, CAMEL, 0400, GV, and Brisfiit.  

 

I like the big stuff the bombers drop and have no problems with that.  But I'm really wondering if Cooper eggs are even worth carrying; since they don't seem to do anything.

 

Is that how you see the egg?  Has it always been this way or am I just seeing a few random flukes?

 

ADDIT: Question for the historical technologists in the crowd:  When they say "20 pound" are they talking about the weight of the explosive alone or the entire bomb; casing, fins, and all?

 

I ask because, if that's 20 pounds of HE, it sure doesn't explode like it.  Gotta be the gross weight of the weapon, right?

 

So how much explosive (by weight) is in a 20# Cooper bomb?  If that was TNT I'd say less than a stick.  C4 or Comp B: I'd guess maybe a pound or two.

 

What did they really contain: explosive type and weight? 

 

ADDIT 2: I did my own research and found out the Cooper is 24 lbs: a 20 lb. casing that contains 4 lbs of Amitol.   I have no training or experience with that explosive so I don't know how it would compare to, say, Comp B or C4.  Still, for four pounds of HE might be somewhere in the neighborhood of about ten M-67 hand grenades.  (Comp B)   I'd think four pounds of Amitol would do some appreciable damage; but so far (with admittedly limited experience) I'm not seeing them do much at all. 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Todt_Von_Oben

[RNAS10_Oliver]

4 hours ago, Todt_Von_Oben said:

I'm flying the SPAD 13 lately with full fuel, balloon guns, and cooper bombs with contact fuses.

 

The guns work fine on planes, trucks, and crew-served weapon emplacements; but I've got to get so close I can see the target clearly in VR and then hit the gun or gunner.  Less than that and I'm not having an effect.  

 

Cooper eggs have provided a few surprises.  I nailed a bridge with two; nice grey HE explosions but no visible damage.

 

So then I overflew a Gotha by about ten feet and bombed it in mid-air.  Two Coopers hit the left top wing and exploded in a grey puff of smoke; but the wing wasn't damaged and the GV flew-on unscathed.

 

I've basically been a fighter pilot; not big into ground attack.  But lately I've been trying a little of whatever presents itself at the moment and that includes bombing with the SPAD, CAMEL, 0400, GV, and Brisfiit.  

 

I like the big stuff the bombers drop and have no problems with that.  But I'm really wondering if Cooper eggs are even worth carrying; since they don't seem to do anything.

 

Is that how you see the egg?  Has it always been this way or am I just seeing a few random flukes?

 

ADDIT: Question for the historical technologists in the crowd:  When they say "20 pound" are they talking about the weight of the explosive alone or the entire bomb; casing, fins, and all?

 

I ask because, if that's 20 pounds of HE, it sure doesn't explode like it.  Gotta be the gross weight of the weapon, right?

 

So how much explosive (by weight) is in a 20# Cooper bomb?  If that was TNT I'd say less than a stick.  C4 or Comp B: I'd guess maybe a pound or two.

 

What did they really contain: explosive type and weight? 

 

ADDIT 2: I did my own research and found out the Cooper is 24 lbs: a 20 lb. casing that contains 4 lbs of Amitol.   I have no training or experience with that explosive so I don't know how it would compare to, say, Comp B or C4.  Still, for four pounds of HE might be somewhere in the neighborhood of about ten M-67 hand grenades.  (Comp B)   I'd think four pounds of Amitol would do some appreciable damage; but so far (with admittedly limited experience) I'm not seeing them do much at all. 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

The Cooper bombs are quite decent and definitely consider them to be worth carrying. Of course that depends upon what your intended targets are though. For tanks, trucks, trains, barges, parked aircraft, artillery guns etc then Coopers are most effective IMHO. As you get many more of them (12 on the Airco) compared to the larger bombs (4 on the Airco) and one direct (or very close) hit tends to be enough for those targets (maybe two on the trains and barges). For other targets such as bridges and structures then the larger bombs are better choices.

 

The RE factor of Amatol is 1.17 therefore that 4 pounds of Amatol it’s equivalent to 4.68 pounds of TNT. And it’s got a detonation velocity of 16,000 feet per second.

Edited May 10, 2022 by RNAS10_Oliver

[=IRFC=Gascan]

Here I use a Breguet to bomb a Gotha midair. I have also used the Camel and SE5a with Cooper bombs to bomb balloons in midair as well, although I don't have video of it.

Here is an older video showing how to strafe the "trench" target (4x mg nests on the front lines).

Here is a video of a patrol Kotori and I did last Christmas. We strafed a convoy of trucks. You can see the trucks smoke and the crew runs away when the vehicle is destroyed.

 

I find the cooper bombs are very nice to have if there is any chance of going after ground targets. With a little bit of practice on both bombing and strafing, almost any Entente scout can become extremely dangerous to ground vehicles, AA guns, artillery, and the like. If I'm trying to intercept planes up high, I leave them behind or at least pickle the bombs to lighten the load. It'll cost about 2kph with bombs and 1kph after you drop, plus the extra weight if you're trying to climb.

 

Machine guns can have the crew scared off by a few hits with the machine gun. The crew may come back in a minute or two, since the gun isn't destroyed yet. Go back for another pass and make sure the gun explodes and leaves a little black bit of debris behind. Same thing for a bomb hit (although I figure bombs are a bit overkill for MG nests).

Artillery and flak also can have the crew scared off without killing the gun. Keep hitting the gun until it explodes, it'll be pretty obvious. This can be done with guns or bombs.

Barges can be strafed or bombed. Kill the AA guns (flak or MGs) on it and that'll usually sink the barge as well. A direct hit with a cooper bomb also does the trick, although near misses aren't good enough. 112lb HURLs are also effective, but possibly a bit overkill and near misses are still not effective.
Trucks can be strafed or bombed. If they are moving, remember to compensate for their motion. Entente bombs must have the 5 second delay, while Central bombs can be contact fused. If strafing, aim for the engine or the driver seat. You can kill the driver, he'll slump over and the vehicle will count as destroyed with no damage visible. Usually I look for the crew to run away, but smoke from the engine is also a good indicator. The best is to check the scores before the attack and afterward to see if you got a kill.

Trains are best to be bombed. You can strafe any cars with AA to kill the guns (if stationary you can scare the crew away, but not when moving), and while you can do damage to the engine with MGs, you don't have enough ammo to actually kill it or slow it down in any way. If bombing, remember to compensate for the speed of the train. I like to fly from behind along the length, dropping bombs on the tracks far enough up front that the train rolls over the top and explodes. There's a very satisfying orange-red explosion with a bunch of steam when the train is dead.

Tanks depend on the type of tank. The Mk V must be bombed. The A7V should be bombed if possible, but can be killed by lucky hits when strafing. I believe it best to do a 20-30 deg dive with low throttle and aim for the grate just forward or aft of the armored tower in the middle of the tank. Even then, it takes a lot of luck and most of your ammo. Only attempt strafing if desperate. The Coopers need a direct hit to destroy a tank. The HURLs can get away with a very near miss, but any further and it's not good enough. Look for the tank to stop firing to confirm a kill. It may take a few seconds to fire again, so be sure before you call it a kill.

Bridges usually need to hit the span of the bridge, not the ramp at either end. Depending on the bridge, a couple coopers could do it, or a single HURL.

Army camp tents are viable targets, usually one cooper will do the trick. Aircraft hangers can also be destroyed with bombs, but I don't remember if one cooper or two is needed.

Factory buildings need the bigger HURL bombs to destroy, although I believe 3-4 coopers will also work in a pinch.

[Todt_Von_Oben]

Yep.  that's how I remember it being before my old computer crashed last July.  Good to hear it's still the same.  The few times I've tried it lately don't amount to a thorough investigation.  Next time I'll fly for the specific purpose of Cooper-bombing something.  I need to find one of those gunnery barges somewhere.  Those were my favorite.  That and surface-running submarines.  Zoo's got some on his maps; if I can remember which one.

 

S!

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

Barges are (I think) in Douai Another Day Todt.

 

Re. gunner crews runing away - I'm just about to do some testing on that..

I see this a a bit of game hack - as I'm not convinced they always come back.

In which case one can effectively disable the installation with a short burst that doesn't even have to hit anything.

 

S!

[Todt_Von_Oben]

I've seen runners before and within the last month but off the top I don't remember where.  I'll keep an eye out for 'em.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Guys,

 

I was wrong when I first said that the timer didn't make any difference.

I remember from RoF days that I have to set it at at least a 5 seconds delay and was convinced that I did so but I totally forgot to actually set it.

So, a minimum of 5 seconds delay does the trick to make the bombs explode in dive bombing.

Thank you all for the replies and the tips.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Gunfreak]

Il2 needs infantry so we can machine gun and bomb those nice squishy targets in the trench.